Joseph Parker vs. Luis Ortiz: The Unconsidered Alternative Outcome

[Ruthless-RKO]

Saw this on BScene.. With all the talk about AJ-Parker and Wilder-Ortiz. Most are expecting an AJ vs. Wilder in the future. We all know AJ has a rematch clause if he loses to Parker.

It's simply a big What If question.

A unification finish line of Luis Ortiz vs. Joseph Parker is possible.

For the accountants, promoters, and network executives, it wouldn’t be a stretch to assume it as the worst possible outcome.

It’s the one fight of those possible between the March foursome that would be a tough sell on pay-per-view. Regular fight fans would be intrigued, but mainstream interest would be minimal in the US. Considering both men would want to be accommodated for a unification fight, it might not even be all that makeable.

[candyslim]

An interesting hypothesis to be sure. A win over Wilder for Ortiz would (depending on the circumstances of that win) confirm that Father time hasn't yet caught up with him yet, and that continues to be the case, I'd fancy Ortiz to have too much skill and know-how for Parker.

On the other hand Parker has chances because his work rate would be far higher. I'd fancy the fight to go the distance and while I can imagine the scenario where Ortiz destroys Wilder (not saying he will), I can't imagine him blasting out Parker early in the fight.

It's a tough one but I'm going Ortiz by decision.

[Enlightened-One]

It’s hard for me to envisage Joseph Parker being unable to deal with Luiz Ortiz’s most recent opponents in a similar fashion than how the Cuban handled them... and I’m referring to the likes of: Tony Thompson, Malik Scott, David Allen & Daniel Martz.

Ortiz appears to possess the better all-round boxing technique, but he has pacing issues, less effective on the inside and struggles to cut off the ring, whereas the Kiwi seems to be more athletic (faster hands & higher work-rate).

People keep referring to the Cuban’s ability during his physical prime, but I don’t quite understand the reason why such an extreme amount of hype and praise has been lavished upon him, since the calibre of his opposition hasn’t been all that great.

At this point in time, I’d favour the Kiwi to score a decision victory over the Cuban, but my opinion may possibly change if a clean version of Ortiz impresses me greatly against Wilder, not that a Parker win over Joshua would be any less impressive.

That being said, I don’t expect this bout to happen, since Eddie Hearn and Lou DiBella wouldn’t have pitted charges against opponents capable of ruining the prospect of a Wilder-Joshua super-fight.

[DrDuke]

I'd say, both of them are not fully tested, however, it is a general problem for today's boxing. Ortiz is much sharper, so I guess, he can knock Parker out.

[SenorPipino]

I find it unfathomable that either Wilder or Joshua will lose their March title fights.

Wilder is in a different class from Ortiz.
Head and shoulders above the Cuban. Speed and athleticism will totally negate the Cuban's reputed power.

Parker hasn't looked recently like a champion. Even an alphabet one.
He's struggled to win against what really amounts to a few fringe contenders.

Parker himself appears to be no better than a fringe contender.

His chin may allow him to survive rounds against Joshua, but the fights smacks of being a disappointing shutout should it go 12.

Ortiz is technically more sound than Parker and is by far the bigger banger

Although he doesn't fall in the category of the traditional Cuban stylist, Ortiz can be cagey and would simply outsmart and outpunch Parker.

Ortiz' conditioning remains a question so Parker could have the edge down the stretch, but by then he might be so battered that he'll have little left to take advantage.

Ortiz by late KO or a 117-111 decision.

If promoters and networks care about the heavyweight championship of the world becoming relevant again, especially in the US, a Parker-Ortiz outcome would be a nightmare scenario.

[Deleted_Scenes]

I picked Ortiz in the poll, but I think I've changed my mind...

I based my pick on how I rate each fighter right now, and how I'd see a fight playing out had they NOT faced Wilder/Joshua in the meantime.

Let me explain:

I can see a scenario, where Wilder gets overexcited, hangs his chin out as he's swinging, allowing the much cooler Cuban to clean his clock and score the upset.

It's a fight where a single punch can make a difference, but where Ortiz (if he wins) won't have gained much in terms of learning/improving.

Parker, on the other hand, only beats Joshua if we see something special from him - something we haven't seen before. A victorious Parker comes away from that fight a changed man. He learns, he improves, and he takes all of that forward to a unification with Ortiz.

If this plays out, Joseph Parker will be the next undisputed heavyweight champion - quite comfortably.

[Lackeos]

Most are expecting an AJ vs. Wilder in the future.

Maybe, but in the immediate future, I'm expecting Joshua - Povetkin. Note how they put Povetkin on a Joshua undercard against a well-known British fighter in England. It is a pretty obvious set-up for Joshua - Povetkin.

[Badhusker]

Parker beating AJ would shock me. Ortiz beating Wilder wouldn't. I expect Wilder to win though.

It comes down to which Parker and Ortiz show up. Even the best Parker won't beat AJ imo. The best Ortiz could beat Wilder.

It would be funny as he'll though if both Ortiz and Parker won.

[KiwiRider]

It's an interesting match up. I picked Parker decision because I just think he can stay upright and out work a slowing Ortiz.
But come on, this pairing is so farcical. Both Wilder and Joshua have rematch clauses (interestingly Parker dosent) .
Now, if they both lost... Then it could happen.

[Deleted_Scenes]

Most are expecting an AJ vs. Wilder in the future.

Maybe, but in the immediate future, I'm expecting Joshua - Povetkin. Note how they put Povetkin on a Joshua undercard against a well-known British fighter in England. It is a pretty obvious set-up for Joshua - Povetkin.

2 mandatories (WBA & WBO) out of the way in one fight. Of course that's next.

[BillW]

I have to laugh every time I see posters belittle the class of fighter that Joseph Parker has fought.
Just for the record , if we look at the last opponent for Wilder, Joshua and Ortiz, (the other protagonists in the March "tournament") we find...

Wilder fought Stiverne. ( Parker's ex sparring partner)
Joshua fought Takam (a Parker victim)
Ortiz fought Martz (another Parker victim)

Talk about levels!

[Ruthless-RKO]

Most are expecting an AJ vs. Wilder in the future.

Maybe, but in the immediate future, I'm expecting Joshua - Povetkin. Note how they put Povetkin on a Joshua undercard against a well-known British fighter in England. It is a pretty obvious set-up for Joshua - Povetkin.

Saw it coming from a mile away. Povetkin hasn't fought in the UK.. Nor would the casuals (who adore and buy ppv's as well) have ever seen him fight. Slap him on the undercard. It'll probably not be the 2nd to last fight. But they should place it strategically.

[phillykid]

The younger but less-refined guy vs. the technically more sound but old guy.

Ortiz has the edge in power; Parker seems to be like the Keith Thurman of the heavyweights in terms of power, where his record indicates he has power, but we just haven't seen much of it against recent opposition.

Other than that it's really hard to call imo, a 50/50 fight.

[littlepug]

I find it unfathomable that either Wilder or Joshua will lose their March title fights.

Wilder is in a different class from Ortiz.
Head and shoulders above the Cuban. Speed and athleticism will totally negate the Cuban's reputed power.

Parker hasn't looked recently like a champion. Even an alphabet one.
He's struggled to win against what really amounts to a few fringe contenders.

Parker himself appears to be no better than a fringe contender.

His chin may allow him to survive rounds against Joshua, but the fights smacks of being a disappointing shutout should it go 12.

Ortiz is technically more sound than Parker and is by far the bigger banger

Although he doesn't fall in the category of the traditional Cuban stylist, Ortiz can be cagey and would simply outsmart and outpunch Parker.

Ortiz' conditioning remains a question so Parker could have the edge down the stretch, but by then he might be so battered that he'll have little left to take advantage.

Ortiz by late KO or a 117-111 decision.

If promoters and networks care about the heavyweight championship of the world becoming relevant again, especially in the US, a Parker-Ortiz outcome would be a nightmare scenario.

Unfathomable ? thats boxings speciality mate, always expect the unexpected !

[BitPlayer]

If the two of them win, then they are different fighters than I think they are, so how the hell should I know who would win?

[Badhusker]

Besides Povetkin, they probably have at least one other "mandatory" lined up instead of Wilder or Ortiz.

[Deleted_Scenes]

Besides Povetkin, they probably have at least one other "mandatory" lined up instead of Wilder or Ortiz.

Don't see how they could. Takam was mandatory for the IBF after Pulev pulled out, and Povetkin is ranked no.1 by the WBA and WBO, so will more than likely satisfy both of those mandatories with one fight.

The only other obstacle from Joshua's side to Joshua vs Wilder, is if the WBA order Joshua vs Charr (something they almost never do), but Charr is tied up with Oquendo.

Assuming both keep winning:

Joshua vs Parker
Wilder vs Ortiz

Joshua vs Povetkin (WBA & WBO mandatory)
Wilder vs Whyte/Browne (WBC mandatory)

Joshua vs Wilder

Wilder could delay the fight if the WBC are slow in ordering his mandatory - Whyte/Browne winner gets ordered to fight Chisora/Takam winner (or Breazeale) as a final eliminator, instead of being ordered to fight Wilder, then orders the winner of that to fight Wilder in late 2018. That likely ties up Wilder until mid 2019...

Of course, he can easily avoid that by requesting the winner of Whyte/Browne as his next fight, and asking the WBC to classify it as his mandatory. If he was only refusing to fight Whyte because he wanted to prove a point and beat Ortiz first, he shouldn't have a problem doing that.

[candyslim]

DS I think you took that too literally. Obviously Povetkin is a mandatory which needs addressing in the not too distant future, and maybe the WBO later if he gets past Parker, but the IBF are sorted for the moment.

No Badhusker is I believe suggesting that team Joshua will find any excuse to avoid fighting Deontay Wilder. I've no idea what Joshua has done to make Badhusker believe he is scared of Deontay Wilder but it's a recurring theme with him.

Wilder is demanding 50% of the revenue. Fair enough for an opening shot but you'd hope he might have got real by now. As I understand it Deontay is sticking to his guns - no 50% no fight.

Why is he so insistent? I think he realizes firstly that Joshua is a huge risk for him (as he is for Joshua)
and that if he is to lose his "Sofia" it had better be for enough money to set him up for life. He knows that Joshua wants his belt and that it isn't like AJ / Hearn couldn't afford to give him an equal split whether it's a reasonable demand or not.

Or maybe he doesn't really want the fight and would rather continue to fight modest opposition for modest rewards, all the while blaming Joshua/ Hearn for ducking him. I was thinking that was the most likely answer but then he signs to fight Ortiz when he had a legitimate reason to give him a swerve. This is not the action of a battle-shy fighter.

I think in the long term Deontay's 50/50 demand would be met but in the short term there's an element of "f*#K you then we don't need you" from the British camp, hence the Parker fight and maybe Povetkin next up. Deontay's problem is that the public aren't going to stand for anymore top fifteenish challengers so even if he gets past Ortiz (far from a foregone conclusion) there is the problem of finding a next opponent(s) good enough to be acceptable to the fans yet not good enough to relieve him of his title in the meantime.

[marvelous marv]

Deontay Wilder does not negotiate the terms of his fights, Al Haymon/Shelly Finkle do. They don't publicly release the terms of the negotiations until a deal has been reached. They have to by law as per the Muhammad Ali Act in the United States.

Regardless of what Deontay says about a 50-50 split in the media none of that is actually part of any negotiation. Although he may feel that a 50 percent split is where negotiations should begin.

Deontay has also said that if he agrees to a lopsided deal the rematch should have the loser accepting the terms of the same lopsided deal in a rematch situation which contradicts his 50 percent split demands.

The reality of the situation is that no serious negotiations have taken place between the sides. Eddie Hearn sent his father to NY to meet with Finkle to map out some possibilities for an end of the year fight and thats where things left off.

Team Joshua clearly wanted to target Parker and made the fight. It was the best business decision for them because they have more leverage holding three belts of the four belts should they win.

[pablothunder]

I have to laugh every time I see posters belittle the class of fighter that Joseph Parker has fought.
Just for the record , if we look at the last opponent for Wilder, Joshua and Ortiz, (the other protagonists in the March "tournament") we find...

Wilder fought Stiverne. ( Parker's ex sparring partner)
Joshua fought Takam (a Parker victim)
Ortiz fought Martz (another Parker victim)

Talk about levels!

I agree entirely. Parker hasn't had a highlight reel run but the wins are there. He's had a steady climb.
I also think we haven't seen much of Ruiz or Hughie Fury since losing to Parker to really say how the top guys would actually perform against them.
I'm guessing Joshua will beat Parker but, somewhere in me I wouldn't be 100% surprised if Parker shows that he runs run the steady if unspectacular train.

[Deleted_Scenes]

DS I think you took that too literally. Obviously Povetkin is a mandatory which needs addressing in the not too distant future, and maybe the WBO later if he gets past Parker, but the IBF are sorted for the moment.

No Badhusker is I believe suggesting that team Joshua will find any excuse to avoid fighting Deontay Wilder. I've no idea what Joshua has done to make Badhusker believe he is scared of Deontay Wilder but it's a recurring theme with him.

Looks like I probably did.

Hearn tries to line up Ortiz for a shot at Joshua (only for Ortiz to not show up and then throw his toys out of the pram)
Then Joshua DOES fight Klitschko.
Now he IS unifying against Parker.
Next we'll probably see him fight Povetkin.

Yet we're supposed to believe he doesn't want anything of Wilder?

Wilder, the champion who never wanted anything of Klitschko, despite winning his belt a full 15 months before Joshua? The fighter who has taken until his SEVENTH defence, to fight anyone better than who Joshua faced in his FIRST. You can blame Povetkin and Ortiz for 2017, but they don't even begin to explain the 2 full years before that.

Rankings of Wilder opponents at time of defence: 28, 14, 27, 35, 39, 24, 4

Rankings of Joshua opponents at time of defence: 8, 28, 1, 18, 7

So who's really been the more risk averse of the two?

To clarify, I don't believe Wilder himself is scared of a challenge. I believe he's been way overprotected by the people around him. He should be a million-buys-a-fight PPV megastar by now. The fact he isn't, just highlights the shoddy management from Haymon and co.

[Badhusker]

DS I think you took that too literally. Obviously Povetkin is a mandatory which needs addressing in the not too distant future, and maybe the WBO later if he gets past Parker, but the IBF are sorted for the moment.

No Badhusker is I believe suggesting that team Joshua will find any excuse to avoid fighting Deontay Wilder. I've no idea what Joshua has done to make Badhusker believe he is scared of Deontay Wilder but it's a recurring theme with him.

Looks like I probably did.

Hearn tries to line up Ortiz for a shot at Joshua (only for Ortiz to not show up and then throw his toys out of the pram)
Then Joshua DOES fight Klitschko.
Now he IS unifying against Parker.
Next we'll probably see him fight Povetkin.

Yet we're supposed to believe he doesn't want anything of Wilder?

Wilder, the champion who never wanted anything of Klitschko, despite winning his belt a full 15 months before Joshua? The fighter who has taken until his SEVENTH defence, to fight anyone better than who Joshua faced in his FIRST. You can blame Povetkin and Ortiz for 2017, but they don't even begin to explain the 2 full years before that.

Rankings of Wilder opponents at time of defence: 28, 14, 27, 35, 39, 24, 4

Rankings of Joshua opponents at time of defence: 8, 28, 1, 18, 7

So who's really been the more risk averse of the two?

To clarify, I don't believe Wilder himself is scared of a challenge. I believe he's been way overprotected by the people around him. He should be a million-buys-a-fight PPV megastar by now. The fact he isn't, just highlights the shoddy management from Haymon and co.

According to Wilder, he did want the fight with Wlad but Wlad told him he had to fight someone else. Take it for what it is worth. As far as I know, as poor as Wilder's resume seems, no one can accuse him of turning down any legitimate fights against top guys.

Also, when did Joshua or Hearn ever offer Ortiz a fight? I have not even heard Ortiz's name from Joshua until Wilder agreed to fight him.

[Gnome]

Wlad or Vitali come out of retirement to KO the winner.

[Deleted_Scenes]

DS I think you took that too literally. Obviously Povetkin is a mandatory which needs addressing in the not too distant future, and maybe the WBO later if he gets past Parker, but the IBF are sorted for the moment.

No Badhusker is I believe suggesting that team Joshua will find any excuse to avoid fighting Deontay Wilder. I've no idea what Joshua has done to make Badhusker believe he is scared of Deontay Wilder but it's a recurring theme with him.

Looks like I probably did.

Hearn tries to line up Ortiz for a shot at Joshua (only for Ortiz to not show up and then throw his toys out of the pram)
Then Joshua DOES fight Klitschko.
Now he IS unifying against Parker.
Next we'll probably see him fight Povetkin.

Yet we're supposed to believe he doesn't want anything of Wilder?

Wilder, the champion who never wanted anything of Klitschko, despite winning his belt a full 15 months before Joshua? The fighter who has taken until his SEVENTH defence, to fight anyone better than who Joshua faced in his FIRST. You can blame Povetkin and Ortiz for 2017, but they don't even begin to explain the 2 full years before that.

Rankings of Wilder opponents at time of defence: 28, 14, 27, 35, 39, 24, 4

Rankings of Joshua opponents at time of defence: 8, 28, 1, 18, 7

So who's really been the more risk averse of the two?

To clarify, I don't believe Wilder himself is scared of a challenge. I believe he's been way overprotected by the people around him. He should be a million-buys-a-fight PPV megastar by now. The fact he isn't, just highlights the shoddy management from Haymon and co.

According to Wilder, he did want the fight with Wlad but Wlad told him he had to fight someone else. Take it for what it is worth. As far as I know, as poor as Wilder's resume seems, no one can accuse him of turning down any legitimate fights against top guys.

Also, when did Joshua or Hearn ever offer Ortiz a fight? I have not even heard Ortiz's name from Joshua until Wilder agreed to fight him.

Yeah, like I said, I think Wilder's been badly managed. I've got no reason at all to believe he's ducked anyone himself.

Hearn signed Ortiz to Matchroom a few fights back, and stuck him on an AJ undercard against Dave Allen with the intention of making him look like a monster (similar to what he's trying with Povetkin/Price). Ortiz apparently never got the memo, phoned in a stinker against Allen, then ran off to America with his tail between his legs after Hearn decided against extending the deal. It never got as far as offers, because Ortiz didn't get the job done properly.

The second time Joshua vs Ortiz was speculated was just after Joshua beat Klitschko. The IBF and WBA named Pulev and Ortiz as immediate mandatories. Hearn/Joshua negotiated to fight them in order (Pulev was ordered first, so fight him first), to avoid being stripped. Ortiz didn't want to wait/wasn't happy with how Hearn treated him previously, so he was lined up for a shot at Wilder instead... which is also how Povetkin became the top contender with the WBA.

[candyslim]

@Badhusker: Ortiz was Joshua's mandatory challenger for his WBA title and would have been fighting Joshua instead of Parker next month, had he not elected to (in his mind at least) relieve Wilder of his WBC belt and fight Joshua as a fellow champion for a bigger payday in a unification.

The reason that team Joshua weren't talking about Ortiz is that next up was to be IBF mandatory Kubrat Pulev. Why was Pulev first ahead of Ortiz?

1) Joshua was IBF champion before he was WBA champion. His 'loyalty' was to the IBF.
2) The IBF mandatory was ordered long before Joshua became subject to the WBA's mandate.
3) As we saw from Tyson Fury, the IBF take no prisoners when it comes to stripping those who don't comply.
4 ) If the fact that Pulev was regarded as the easier option, and this is pure speculation, can we begrudge a man coming off a defence against Wlad Klitschko, an easy one against the World's number 6 contender???

I really admired Ortiz for his courage and belief in giving up his guaranteed mega pay out against AJ in order to fight Wilder first. As we now know, the WBC took exception to his meds and stopped the fight going ahead. Ortiz went from having a choice of which champion to face in his next fight to having no title shot and no future in the sport. He was frankly, absolutely f*#ked and he should be deeply grateful to Deontay for rescuing him from limbo.

Say what you like about Wilder (and I have been pretty scathing of him at times) but he had the perfect excuse to walk away having effectively eliminated a major title threat without taking or throwing a punch, with little or no damage to his reputation,. He could have left Ortiz to rot.

I always try to be fair so I have to say Deontay Wilder has shot up in my estimation for fighting Ortiz when he had no need. I only hope his bravery in doing so doesn't come back and bite him on the arse. I value courage above any other quality in a boxer and I like to see it rewarded by the Gods of good fortune.