Boxrec Forum All Time Middleweight Tournament *Round 1 Voting Open*

[BitPlayer]

Seems like it'd be fun.

Ok nominations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... ddleweight

To start with I'm including all these guys, that leaves space for 21 more, I'll include Langford and GGG.. I've got some ideas for the rest, but I'm open for suggestions, feel free to make them a bit wacky.


I'll randomly match up the boxers. I'll announce the match ups, then I'll post comments when voting opens then closes. I'll do 8 match ups at a time for the first round, then 4 for the second, and third rounds, 2 at a time for the quater finals, then 1 at a time for semi finals and finals.

[scartissue]

Bit, clarify for me a little bit. There are 43 fighters on that list and you said that left 11 more spots to fill. So your tourney is going to be 54 fighters? Did you mean for it to be 64 fighters? That way it would be an even tourney of 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds before the quarter-finals. So I'm guessing you meant 21 more fighters to fill the breach. Am I right?

[BitPlayer]

Bit, clarify for me a little bit. There are 43 fighters on that list and you said that left 11 more spots to fill. So your tourney is going to be 54 fighters? Did you mean for it to be 64 fighters? That way it would be an even tourney of 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds before the quarter-finals. So I'm guessing you meant 21 more fighters to fill the breach. Am I right?

Yes, you are correct. I'll fix it.

[BitPlayer]

Here's a preliminary list. I'm happy to make changes if anyone has any suggestions.

Sam Langford
Gennady Golovkin
Jem Mace
Roy Jones Jr
Thomas Hearns
Young Peter Jackson
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Len Harvey
Jack Twin Sullivan
Tommy Gibbons
Mike Gibbons
Professor Mike Donovan
Charlie Mitchell
Tommy Burns
Jim Hall
Kid McCoy
Tom Sayers
Daniel Mendoza
Joe Walcott
Billy Joe Saunders
Nigel Benn

[scartissue]

Here's a preliminary list. I'm happy to make changes if anyone has any suggestions.

Sam Langford
Gennady Golovkin
Jem Mace
Roy Jones Jr
Thomas Hearns
Young Peter Jackson
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Len Harvey
Jack Twin Sullivan
Tommy Gibbons
Mike Gibbons
Professor Mike Donovan
Charlie Mitchell
Tommy Burns
Jim Hall
Kid McCoy
Tom Sayers
Daniel Mendoza
Joe Walcott
Billy Joe Saunders
Nigel Benn

Fighters not on your list, I would say some alphabet champs like Freddie Steele, Marcel Thil, Fred Apostoli, Ken Overlin and Sumbu Kalambay. And some outstanding contenders such as Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Georgie Abrams, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Eddie Booker, Dave Sands, Spider Webb, Joey Archer, Luis Rodriguez and Bennie Briscoe. Just some random but outstanding fighters to consider.

[BitPlayer]

Fighters not on your list, I would say some alphabet champs like Freddie Steele, Marcel Thil, Fred Apostoli, Ken Overlin and Sumbu Kalambay. And some outstanding contenders such as Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Georgie Abrams, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Eddie Booker, Dave Sands, Spider Webb, Joey Archer, Luis Rodriguez and Bennie Briscoe. Just some random but outstanding fighters to consider.

Freddie Steele
Marcel Thil
Fred Apostoli
Ken Overlin
Sumbu Kalambay
Young Corbett III

In for
Nigel Benn
Saunders
Tommy Burns (not really known as a middleweight)
Kid McCoy (too many question marks for fake fights)
Joe Wallcott (not really known as a middleweight)
Tommy Gibbons (One Gibbons is probably enough)

Edit also Dave Sands for Jim Hall (also some question marks about fake fights, and not quite to the level of some others either)

[gilgamesh]

Harry Greb and Bob Fitzsimmons gotta be in there.

Reckon you could throw Sergio Martinez in there too, and obviously Bernard Hopkins.

Nino Benvenuti would be a worthy addition as well. Also Rodrigo Valdes and one of the Legendary Tough guy contenders of all time Bennie Briscoe would hold his own.

Mickey Walker is another that belongs, and both Sugar Ray's.

And of course Stanley Ketchel.

[BitPlayer]

Harry Greb and Bob Fitzsimmons gotta be in there.

Reckon you could throw Sergio Martinez in there too, and obviously Bernard Hopkins.

Nino Benvenuti would be a worthy addition as well. Also Rodrigo Valdes and one of the Legendary Tough guy contenders of all time Bennie Briscoe would hold his own.

Mickey Walker is another that belongs, and both Sugar Ray's.

And of course Stanley Ketchel.

I'm including all the lineal champs, so Greb, Fitz, Walker, the Rays, Ketchel, Martinez, Hopkins, Nino, and Valdes are all in.

[BitPlayer]

Since two of you have requested him I'll swap in Bennie Briscoe for Prof. Mike Donovan.

Donovan was very good, but I don't think many people will pick him due to how early he was, and he didn't rise quite to the heights of the other early ones I included.

[BitPlayer]

Round 1 as it stands (match ups are random)

Voting doesn't start yet, but please discuss any of the matchups, especially group 1.

Group 1
Tom Sayers Vs Carl Olson
Randy Turpin Vs Canelo Álvarez
Sam Langford Vs Marcel Thil
Kelly Pavlik Vs Len Harvey
Vito Antuofermo Vs Charlie Mitchell
Bob Fitzsimmons Vs Rocky Graziano
Jake LaMotta Vs George Chip
Emile Griffith Vs Tiger Flowers

Group 2
Ken Overlin Vs Hugo Corro
Billy Papke Vs Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Stanley Ketchel Vs Thomas Hearns
Tommy Ryan Vs Fred Apostoli
Mike O'Dowd Vs Joey Giardello
Dave Sands Vs Bennie Briscoe
Tony Zale Vs Jack Twin Sullivan
Young Corbett III Vs Michael Nunn

Group 3
Roy Jones Jr Vs Jermain Taylor
Daniel Mendoza Vs Rodrigo Valdez
Dick Tiger Vs Carlos Monzon
Harry Greb Vs Young Peter Jackson
Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mickey Walker
Sugar Ray Leonard Vs Sergio Martínez
Bernard Hopkins Vs Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
James Toney Vs Gennady Golovkin

Group 4
Miguel Cotto Vs Alan Minter
Marvin Hagler Vs Terry Downes
Sugar Ray Robinson Vs Al McCoy
Marcel Cerdan Vs Carmen Basilio
Johnny Wilson Vs Frank Klaus
Gene Fullmer Vs Paul Pender
Nino Benvenuti Vs Freddie Steele
Jem Mace Vs Mike Gibbons

[Ambling Alp II]

Sorry that I didn't reply sooner.
-The biggest problem is that Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Eddie Booker aren't included. They are legitimate Hall of Famers who are better than most of the guys in it. They absolutely have to be in it.
Billy Conn and Lou Broulliard should be in as well.

-I would take out Mendoza, Sayers and Mace. To be honest, we have no idea how good they were.
-Ray Leonard and Miguel Cotto barely fought at middleweight, so if you have to, you can exclude them.
-Young Peter Jackson is a pretty iffy pick as well.

As for the groups;
-I would not have Antufermo vs Mitchell in the first round. That is a really weak matchup. Both would lose to almost anyone else.
Griffith-Flowers is too good of a matchup to happen right away. Maybe have Griffith vs Mitchell and Antuofermo vs Flowers.

-Also, you have Greb and Monzon both in Group 3. You also have Hagler and Robinson in Group 4. These four all need to be spread out in different groups. They are almost universally regarded as the Top 4 middleweights.

Sorry if I seem overcritical. It's a great idea and can be a lot of fun. Obviously you have put some time into this.

[BitPlayer]

Sorry that I didn't reply sooner.
-The biggest problem is that Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Eddie Booker aren't included. They are legitimate Hall of Famers who are better than most of the guys in it. They absolutely have to be in it.
Billy Conn and Lou Broulliard should be in as well.

-I would take out Mendoza, Sayers and Mace. To be honest, we have no idea how good they were.
-Ray Leonard and Miguel Cotto barely fought at middleweight, so if you have to, you can exclude them.
-Young Peter Jackson is a pretty iffy pick as well.

As for the groups;
-I would not have Antufermo vs Mitchell in the first round. That is a really weak matchup. Both would lose to almost anyone else.
Griffith-Flowers is too good of a matchup to happen right away. Maybe have Griffith vs Mitchell and Antuofermo vs Flowers.

-Also, you have Greb and Monzon both in Group 3. You also have Hagler and Robinson in Group 4. These four all need to be spread out in different groups. They are almost universally regarded as the Top 4 middleweights.

Sorry if I seem overcritical. It's a great idea and can be a lot of fun. Obviously you have put some time into this.

That's fine. The match ups are random, I don't really want to muck around with seeding for various reasons, if nothing else people can start complaining about favour certain fighters and not ones they like. There is always going to be too good match ups too early, but in some ways I don't think it's that bad a thing, it atleast makes the early rounds interesting.

I included the early ones as a bit of a test if I want to do this again to see if they are worth including for future attempts at this sort of thing. Honestly given rule changes, poor early film quality, and how incomplete it is for a lot of fighters, really I think you have to take stuff like this as fun with a lot of speculation anyway. I'd like to keep Mace and Mendoza, but I'll mayber remove Sayers since he doesn't seem to have fought much as a middleweight.

Young Peter Jackson was probably one of the first ones I would remove out of the current lot, though I certainly think he should be included in a welterweight tournament, though he did have a few shots at middleweight honours. Honestly my knowledge is patchy overall, so I'm happy for the input.

BTW the groups are just for voting, I'll do all the match ups at random each round.


Eddie Booker, Charley Burley, Holman Williams,
In for
Tom Sayers, Cotto, Young Peter Jackson.

I'll consider the other suggestions more too.

[gilgamesh]

Glad you listened to AA and put Booker, Williams and Burley in. He was right that they HAVE to be there.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Australian Aboriginal Dave Sands record when tragically killed at 26 years of age when number 2 ranked Middleweight contender in World was 87-10-1-65 KOs with 2 no contests Dave beat Bobo Olson twice iced Henry Brimm in 2 rounds Brimm 18 months earlier fought a 10 round draw with Sugar Ray Robinson and easily beat Robert Villemain on points Sands was uncrowned World Champ he must be in this.

[BitPlayer]

I think I'll swap in Billy Conn for SRL

What about Teddy Yarosz?

I could maybe add another round. (If we can't get up to 128, ones like Greb, Langford etc. could just be excluded from the first round)

[BitPlayer]

If I go for an extra round the current list is

Al Hostak
Al McCoy
Alan Minter
Ben Jeby
Bennie Briscoe
Bernard Hopkins
Bert Colima
Bert Gilroy
Billy Conn
Billy Joe Saunders
Billy Papke
Billy Soose
Bob Fitzsimmons
Canelo Álvarez
Carl Olson
Carlos Monzon
Carmen Basilio
Ceferino Garcia
Charles Humez
Charley Burley
Charlie Mitchell
Cocoa Kid
Cyclone Johnny Thompson
Cyrille Delannoit
Dan Creedon
Daniel Jacobs
Daniel Mendoza
Dave Sands
Dave Shade
Dick Tiger
Eddie Booker
Eddie McGoorty
Eddie Risko
Emile Griffith
Felix Trinidad
Frank Klaus
Fred Apostoli
Freddie Steele
Gene Fullmer
Gennady Golovkin
George Benton
George Chip
George LaBlanche
Georgie Abrams
Harry Greb
Holly Mims
Holman Williams
Hugo Corro
Iran Barkley
Jack Blackburn
Jack Chase
Jack Twin Sullivan
Jake LaMotta
James Toney
Jeff Smith
Jem Mace
Jermain Taylor
Jim Hall
Jimmy Clabby
Jock Malone
Joe Walcott
Joey Archer
Joey Giambra
Joey Giardello
John David Jackson
Johnny Wilson
Jorge Castro
Keith Holmes
Kelly Pavlik
Ken Overlin
Kid McCoy
Len Harvey
Leo Houck
Lloyd Marshall
Lou Broulliard
Luis Manuel Rodriguez
Marcel Cerdan
Marcel Thil
Marvin Hagler
Michael Nunn
Mickey Walker
Miguel Cotto
Mike Gibbons
Mike McCallum
Mike O'Dowd
Mustafa Hamsho
Nigel Benn
Nino Benvenuti
Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Paul Pender
Peter Mueller
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Professor Mike Donovan
Randy Turpin
Reggie Johnson
Rene De Vos
Roberto Duran
Rocky Castellani
Rocky Graziano
Rodrigo Valdez
Roy Jones Jr
Rubin Carter
Sam Langford
Sergio Martínez
Solly Krieger
Spider Webb
Stanley Ketchel
Steve Belloise
Sugar Ray Leonard
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sugar Ray Seales
Sumbu Kalambay
Teddy Yarosz
Terry Downes
Thomas Hearns
Tiger Flowers
Tom Sayers
Tommy Burns
Tommy Gibbons
Tommy Ryan
Tony Zale
Vince Dundee
Vito Antuofermo
William "Gorilla" Jones
William Bryan Downey
William Joppy
Young Corbett III
Young Peter Jackson


A fair few questionable picks if anyone has anyone they want added.

[crl333]

Les Darcy

[BitPlayer]

Les Darcy

In for LaBlanche

[BitPlayer]

Okay, there may still be a few worthy ones missing, but I just want to get this thing going.

I won't vote, but I'll decide in the event of tie.
Match ups will be randomly made in each round (the groups are just for voting purposes, and don't represent later rounds)

Here are the groups for round 1

Tiger Flowers Vs Harry Greb
Joey Giardello Vs Mustafa Hamsho
Dave Shade Vs Young Corbett III
Rocky Graziano Vs Fred Apostoli
Bert Colima Vs Cocoa Kid
Rocky Castellani Vs Charlie Mitchell
Billy Papke Vs George Chip
Jack Blackburn Vs Miguel Cotto

Billy Joe Saunders Vs Lou Broulliard
Jim Hall Vs Billy Conn
Len Harvey Vs Carl Olson
Cyclone Johnny Thompson Vs William "Gorilla" Jones
Mike O'Dowd Vs Tony Zale
Luis Manuel Rodriguez Vs Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
Vito Antuofermo Vs Nino Benvenuti
Joey Archer Vs Johnny Wilson

Les Darcy Vs Terry Downes
Mike Gibbons Vs Nigel Benn
Bernard Hopkins Vs Eddie McGoorty
Sugar Ray Seales Vs Marcel Thil
Solly Krieger Vs Marcel Cerdan
Jermain Taylor Vs Holly Mims
Joe Walcott Vs Roy Jones Jr
Jack Chase Vs Tommy Gibbons

Carlos Monzon Vs John David Jackson
Gennady Golovkin Vs Leo Houck
Steve Belloise Vs Reggie Johnson
Teddy Yarosz Vs Ceferino Garcia
William Joppy Vs William Bryan Downey
Keith Holmes Vs Hugo Corro
Frank Klaus Vs Kelly Pavlik
Kid McCoy Vs Philadelphia Jack O'Brien

James Toney Vs Mickey Walker
Cyrille Delannoit Vs Sumbu Kalambay
Daniel Jacobs Vs Eddie Booker
Billy Soose Vs Al McCoy
Roberto Duran Vs Lloyd Marshall
Sugar Ray Robinson Vs Jorge Castro
Bennie Briscoe Vs Sam Langford
Professor Mike Donovan Vs Bob Fitzsimmons

Marvin Hagler Vs Paul Pender
Ken Overlin Vs Eddie Risko
Canelo Álvarez Vs Mike McCallum
Carmen Basilio Vs Bert Gilroy
Spider Webb Vs Alan Minter
Stanley Ketchel Vs Dan Creedon
Charles Humez Vs Dick Tiger
Peter Mueller Vs Jock Malone

Jem Mace Vs Young Peter Jackson
Michael Nunn Vs Iran Barkley
Vince Dundee Vs Rene De Vos
Jake LaMotta Vs Felix Trinidad
Joey Giambra Vs Gene Fullmer
Jimmy Clabby Vs Al Hostak
Freddie Steele Vs Dave Sands
Charley Burley Vs Tom Sayers

Thomas Hearns Vs Ben Jeby
George Benton Vs Jeff Smith
Rodrigo Valdez Vs Holman Williams
Emile Griffith Vs Sergio Martínez
Tommy Burns Vs Sugar Ray Leonard
Georgie Abrams Vs Randy Turpin
Daniel Mendoza Vs Tommy Ryan
Rubin Carter Vs Jack Twin Sullivan

[BitPlayer]

Please vote here> https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/8LMSYB5

I'll see how it goes, I'll maybe leave it a week. You can skip questions if you want.

[BitPlayer]

Bump. Hopefully this'll pick up a little more.

[oogiebe]

Here's a preliminary list. I'm happy to make changes if anyone has any suggestions.

Sam Langford
Gennady Golovkin
Jem Mace
Roy Jones Jr
Thomas Hearns
Young Peter Jackson
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Len Harvey
Jack Twin Sullivan
Tommy Gibbons
Mike Gibbons
Professor Mike Donovan
Charlie Mitchell
Tommy Burns
Jim Hall
Kid McCoy
Tom Sayers
Daniel Mendoza
Joe Walcott
Billy Joe Saunders
Nigel Benn

Where's Carlos Monzon?

[BitPlayer]

Here's a preliminary list. I'm happy to make changes if anyone has any suggestions.

Sam Langford
Gennady Golovkin
Jem Mace
Roy Jones Jr
Thomas Hearns
Young Peter Jackson
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Len Harvey
Jack Twin Sullivan
Tommy Gibbons
Mike Gibbons
Professor Mike Donovan
Charlie Mitchell
Tommy Burns
Jim Hall
Kid McCoy
Tom Sayers
Daniel Mendoza
Joe Walcott
Billy Joe Saunders
Nigel Benn

Where's Carlos Monzon?

I've added a lot more since then, but I started with the lineal champs and that was just other ones to include, check the last list of match ups, that's everyone in now.

There was a lot of era I wasn't to familar with and so some great fighters got missed out, but I think I got atleast nearly all of them now

[oogiebe]

Here's a preliminary list. I'm happy to make changes if anyone has any suggestions.

Sam Langford
Gennady Golovkin
Jem Mace
Roy Jones Jr
Thomas Hearns
Young Peter Jackson
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Len Harvey
Jack Twin Sullivan
Tommy Gibbons
Mike Gibbons
Professor Mike Donovan
Charlie Mitchell
Tommy Burns
Jim Hall
Kid McCoy
Tom Sayers
Daniel Mendoza
Joe Walcott
Billy Joe Saunders
Nigel Benn

Where's Carlos Monzon?

I've added a lot more since then, but I started with the lineal champs and that was just other ones to include, check the last list of match ups, that's everyone in now.

There was a lot of era I wasn't to familar with and so some great fighters got missed out, but I think I got atleast nearly all of them now

There certainly were a ton of great middleweights!

[BitPlayer]

There certainly were a ton of great middleweights!

Yeah, one of the reasons I did this was to learn about a lot I've never looked into. Around Lightweight to Light Heavyweight always seemed to me to be where most of the talent was. A lot of weight jumpers, but there's probably most of the top 10 P4P all time in the tournament, even if a few are a bit on the small side. Greb, Langford, Fitz, and Robinson are all pretty consenus.