Norton vs Lyle in October 1979

[sweetviolenturge]

While reading up on the latter-day career of Kenny Norton it came to my attention that a bout between Norton & Ron Lyle was tentatively scheduled to take place in October of 1979 had Norton been successful in his August bout vs Scott Ledoux. Unfortunately, we never got to see that bout as Norton showed up for the Ledoux bout in mediocre shape & fell apart in the final three rounds allowing Ledoux back into what was a one-sided affair. And, as a result, Ledoux dropped an exhausted Norton in the tenth & final round, nearly stopping him & salvaging a draw for himself in front of a partisan Minnesota crowd. A result that sent Norton into a brief retirement that prevented the Lyle fight from taking place.
It's too bad too because Norton - Lyle is a match-up that really should have taken place during that era.
Many experts pick Lyle in that proposed bout because of Norton's losses to big punchers Foreman & Shavers but Lyle was a slower starter that those two men & I don't believe that the result is the foregone conclusion that many do. Especially so if it had taken place in October of '79.
At that point, I think a properly conditioned Norton had a bit more left in his tank than did Lyle. As evidenced by Norton's being able to come back & beat the unbeaten "Tex" Cobb following his brief retirement after the Ledoux affair. While Lyle was belted out in two short rounds by the unheralded Lynn Ball in December of '79.
I think, had they stayed on course for that October meeting that Norton would have trained much harder for Lyle than he had for Ledoux & that as a result, he'd have beaten a jaded Lyle via TKO in about eight rounds.

[scorpio83]

At that stage, Norton would beat Lyle in October 1979, but in my opinion, Lyle would hurt Norton in 1974 and stop him in 10 rounds.

[DrDuke]

I guess, Norton could have outboxed Lyle in prime conditions, but by that time Ken's shape had already been not good enough to let him avoid Lyle's power.

[SenorPipino]

Anything could have happened by then.

Lyle was washed up. As you said, journeyman Ball stopped him quickly.
And Cooney realistically ended his career in 1 round a year later.

But Norton was also struggling. Barely escaping against Tex Cobb--a guy he would have toyed with 2 or 3 years earlier-- and then also being put to sleep by Cooney.

So many variables between 2 over the hill fighters.

If forced, I'll say Norton holds on to decision Lyle. But it would be no surprise if he fell apart in the late rounds as he did against Cobb and LeDoux.

And if he did, Lyle might have stopped him.

[Kalan]

I say Lyle shittcans Norton any time they meet... It's Foreman-Norton all over again.

Also if Foreman faced Shavers... It would end like Lyle-Shavers.

[sweetsci]

Based on the Cobb fight, I think Norton had more in the tank in late '79 than Lyle did and would pick him by decision.

Norton-LeDoux was supposed to take place in July '79 in San Diego. I was 12 years old and visiting relatives for a month in San Diego that summer when the fight was announced. I was really excited to get tickets to see my hero, Norton, fight in the arena where he broke Ali's jaw. But, alas, Norton got injured and the fight was postponed.

[sweetviolenturge]

Based on the Cobb fight, I think Norton had more in the tank in late '79 than Lyle did and would pick him by decision.

Norton-LeDoux was supposed to take place in July '79 in San Diego. I was 12 years old and visiting relatives for a month in San Diego that summer when the fight was announced. I was really excited to get tickets to see my hero, Norton, fight in the arena where he broke Ali's jaw. But, alas, Norton got injured and the fight was postponed.

That's the same way that I feel.
Judging by their mutual fights with Ledoux that year, Norton was, indeed, more capable at that point than Lyle was.
While Lyle was able to eek out a narrow split nod over Ledoux that May, it was a life & death struggle for him while Norton was able to basically shut Ledoux out for the first seven rounds of their August encounter before getting thumbed in the eye in round eight. After which, due in part to being blinded & in part to the weeks of training he missed due to injury, the wheels fell off in the final three rounds. Still, the draw was a hometown nod as Norton had built up enough of a lead to win.
Lyle meanwhile was then subsequently KO'd in two by the mediocre Lynn Ball. Then, after two wins over non-descript opposition, he fell victim to Cooney.
Yeah, so did Norton, but in the interim, he did beat the unbeaten "Tex" Cobb. The same fighter who'd outlasted the still dangerous Earnie Shavers.
Now, some might say that styles make fights & that Lyle was always wrong for Kenny but I disagree.
While I'd have personally tended to steer Norton clear of Lyle earlier in their careers, in October of '79 I'd have made the fight. It would have likely been the win that would have earned Norton a rematch with Holmes.

[Flump]

Based on the Cobb fight, I think Norton had more in the tank in late '79 than Lyle did and would pick him by decision.

Norton-LeDoux was supposed to take place in July '79 in San Diego. I was 12 years old and visiting relatives for a month in San Diego that summer when the fight was announced. I was really excited to get tickets to see my hero, Norton, fight in the arena where he broke Ali's jaw. But, alas, Norton got injured and the fight was postponed.

That's the same way that I feel.
Judging by their mutual fights with Ledoux that year, Norton was, indeed, more capable at that point than Lyle was.
While Lyle was able to eek out a narrow split nod over Ledoux that May, it was a life & death struggle for him while Norton was able to basically shut Ledoux out for the first seven rounds of their August encounter before getting thumbed in the eye in round eight. After which, due in part to being blinded & in part to the weeks of training he missed due to injury, the wheels fell off in the final three rounds. Still, the draw was a hometown nod as Norton had built up enough of a lead to win.
Lyle meanwhile was then subsequently KO'd in two by the mediocre Lynn Ball. Then, after two wins over non-descript opposition, he fell victim to Cooney.
Yeah, so did Norton, but in the interim, he did beat the unbeaten "Tex" Cobb. The same fighter who'd outlasted the still dangerous Earnie Shavers.
Now, some might say that styles make fights & that Lyle was always wrong for Kenny but I disagree.
While I'd have personally tended to steer Norton clear of Lyle earlier in their careers, in October of '79 I'd have made the fight. It would have likely been the win that would have earned Norton a rematch with Holmes.

Good post, I agree

[sweetviolenturge]

Based on the Cobb fight, I think Norton had more in the tank in late '79 than Lyle did and would pick him by decision.

Norton-LeDoux was supposed to take place in July '79 in San Diego. I was 12 years old and visiting relatives for a month in San Diego that summer when the fight was announced. I was really excited to get tickets to see my hero, Norton, fight in the arena where he broke Ali's jaw. But, alas, Norton got injured and the fight was postponed.

That's the same way that I feel.
Judging by their mutual fights with Ledoux that year, Norton was, indeed, more capable at that point than Lyle was.
While Lyle was able to eek out a narrow split nod over Ledoux that May, it was a life & death struggle for him while Norton was able to basically shut Ledoux out for the first seven rounds of their August encounter before getting thumbed in the eye in round eight. After which, due in part to being blinded & in part to the weeks of training he missed due to injury, the wheels fell off in the final three rounds. Still, the draw was a hometown nod as Norton had built up enough of a lead to win.
Lyle meanwhile was then subsequently KO'd in two by the mediocre Lynn Ball. Then, after two wins over non-descript opposition, he fell victim to Cooney.
Yeah, so did Norton, but in the interim, he did beat the unbeaten "Tex" Cobb. The same fighter who'd outlasted the still dangerous Earnie Shavers.
Now, some might say that styles make fights & that Lyle was always wrong for Kenny but I disagree.
While I'd have personally tended to steer Norton clear of Lyle earlier in their careers, in October of '79 I'd have made the fight. It would have likely been the win that would have earned Norton a rematch with Holmes.

Good post, I agree

Thanks, Flump.

While Lyle would have always been a dangerous fight for Norton, the fact that his legs were clearly on the way toward totally gone in the Ledoux bout & the fact that his chin was vulnerable enough for him to be belted out by Ball make me believe that Norton would have survived a couple of rocky moments before stopping Lyle in about eight. Too bad we never got to see it.

[Caractacus]

Norton vrs Lyle-January 1971 can be seen at approx. 13:55 of this clip.

[Nile4000]

Nice to see Ali and Frazier supportive of Ron.

[Tony1244]

I like Lyle so much I listed him as one of my 5 favorite fighters of All Time on another thread here. Norton did not make that list, but I would favor Norton over Lyle regardless of what year they fought.

Norton had quicker hands, a better defense, and somewhat better chin.

I love Lyle's story and his incredible fights with Foreman, Ali, and Shavers, but I see Norton as being in the same class with Frazier and apparently Ali, while Lyle was more of the Ellis, Quarry class, who he beat and lost to respectively.

[DrDuke]

I like Lyle so much I listed him as one of my 5 favorite fighters of All Time on another thread here. Norton did not make that list, but I would favor Norton over Lyle regardless of what year they fought.

Norton had quicker hands, a better defense, and somewhat better chin.

I love Lyle's story and his incredible fights with Foreman, Ali, and Shavers, but I see Norton as being in the same class with Frazier and apparently Ali, while Lyle was more of the Ellis, Quarry class, who he beat and lost to respectively.

A good evaluation overall, I agree, that Norton was a better boxer, than Lyle, but I'd say, that his chin was worse, than Lyle's one.

[Tony1244]

I like Lyle so much I listed him as one of my 5 favorite fighters of All Time on another thread here. Norton did not make that list, but I would favor Norton over Lyle regardless of what year they fought.

Norton had quicker hands, a better defense, and somewhat better chin.

I love Lyle's story and his incredible fights with Foreman, Ali, and Shavers, but I see Norton as being in the same class with Frazier and apparently Ali, while Lyle was more of the Ellis, Quarry class, who he beat and lost to respectively.

A good evaluation overall, I agree, that Norton was a better boxer, than Lyle, but I'd say, that his chin was worse, than Lyle's one.

You may be right. Perhaps Norton just had better defense.

[Tony1244]

I like Lyle so much I listed him as one of my 5 favorite fighters of All Time on another thread here. Norton did not make that list, but I would favor Norton over Lyle regardless of what year they fought.

Norton had quicker hands, a better defense, and somewhat better chin.

I love Lyle's story and his incredible fights with Foreman, Ali, and Shavers, but I see Norton as being in the same class with Frazier and apparently Ali, while Lyle was more of the Ellis, Quarry class, who he beat and lost to respectively.

A good evaluation overall, I agree, that Norton was a better boxer, than Lyle, but I'd say, that his chin was worse, than Lyle's one.

Thinking about it some more, Norton took a lot of Ali's shots for 49 rounds, but Ali hurt Lyle quite easily when he needed to.
What says you....

[Tony1244]

Norton vrs Lyle-January 1971 can be seen at approx. 13:55 of this clip.

Thanks! A Great 16:45.

[oogiebe]

While reading up on the latter-day career of Kenny Norton it came to my attention that a bout between Norton & Ron Lyle was tentatively scheduled to take place in October of 1979 had Norton been successful in his August bout vs Scott Ledoux. Unfortunately, we never got to see that bout as Norton showed up for the Ledoux bout in mediocre shape & fell apart in the final three rounds allowing Ledoux back into what was a one-sided affair. And, as a result, Ledoux dropped an exhausted Norton in the tenth & final round, nearly stopping him & salvaging a draw for himself in front of a partisan Minnesota crowd. A result that sent Norton into a brief retirement that prevented the Lyle fight from taking place.
It's too bad too because Norton - Lyle is a match-up that really should have taken place during that era.
Many experts pick Lyle in that proposed bout because of Norton's losses to big punchers Foreman & Shavers but Lyle was a slower starter that those two men & I don't believe that the result is the foregone conclusion that many do. Especially so if it had taken place in October of '79.
At that point, I think a properly conditioned Norton had a bit more left in his tank than did Lyle. As evidenced by Norton's being able to come back & beat the unbeaten "Tex" Cobb following his brief retirement after the Ledoux affair. While Lyle was belted out in two short rounds by the unheralded Lynn Ball in December of '79.
I think, had they stayed on course for that October meeting that Norton would have trained much harder for Lyle than he had for Ledoux & that as a result, he'd have beaten a jaded Lyle via TKO in about eight rounds.

I thought Norton Ledoux was a draw.

[Tuan_Jim]

I think in 79 Norton knocking out Lyle is a more realistic prospect than the other way round. Norton really did boss LeDoux for 7 rounds and looked commanding doing so. I would think he could survive some scares and get Lyle out of there before a late fight fade put him at risk.

[oogiebe]

I think in 79 Norton knocking out Lyle is a more realistic prospect than the other way round. Norton really did boss LeDoux for 7 rounds and looked commanding doing so. I would think he could survive some scares and get Lyle out of there before a late fight fade put him at risk.

Lyle was all wrong for Norton, much like Shavers and Foreman. IF in early 1970's Norton wins, but no way in 1979.

[gilgamesh]

Norton was on his last legs by 1979, Ron Lyle still had more in the tank I think. If they were both mutually at their best I'd favor Ken, but by 1979 I figure Lyle would have the edge.

[Tuan_Jim]

I think in 79 Norton knocking out Lyle is a more realistic prospect than the other way round. Norton really did boss LeDoux for 7 rounds and looked commanding doing so. I would think he could survive some scares and get Lyle out of there before a late fight fade put him at risk.

Lyle was all wrong for Norton, much like Shavers and Foreman. IF in early 1970's Norton wins, but no way in 1979.

Evidently you have not seen Ron Lyle in 1979. He boxed Scott LeDoux and Lynn Ball, and was a chinless shell of the monster of yore. Norton had a lot more left in 79.

[oogiebe]

I think in 79 Norton knocking out Lyle is a more realistic prospect than the other way round. Norton really did boss LeDoux for 7 rounds and looked commanding doing so. I would think he could survive some scares and get Lyle out of there before a late fight fade put him at risk.

Lyle was all wrong for Norton, much like Shavers and Foreman. IF in early 1970's Norton wins, but no way in 1979.

Evidently you have not seen Ron Lyle in 1979. He boxed Scott LeDoux and Lynn Ball, and was a chinless shell of the monster of yore. Norton had a lot more left in 79.

Two fighters shot. One throws bombs. You tell me.

[Tuan_Jim]

Lyle was all wrong for Norton, much like Shavers and Foreman. IF in early 1970's Norton wins, but no way in 1979.

Evidently you have not seen Ron Lyle in 1979. He boxed Scott LeDoux and Lynn Ball, and was a chinless shell of the monster of yore. Norton had a lot more left in 79.

Two fighters shot. One throws bombs. You tell me.

Where were Lyle's bombs versus LeDoux and the glass chinned Lynn Ball? Norton throws bombs too, and could still fight in 79. A guy who gets laid out clean by Lynn Ball is not knocking out Ken Norton.

[oogiebe]

Evidently you have not seen Ron Lyle in 1979. He boxed Scott LeDoux and Lynn Ball, and was a chinless shell of the monster of yore. Norton had a lot more left in 79.

Two fighters shot. One throws bombs. You tell me.

Where were Lyle's bombs versus LeDoux and the glass chinned Lynn Ball? Norton throws bombs too, and could still fight in 79. A guy who gets laid out clean by Lynn Ball is not knocking out Ken Norton.

My friend, Ken Norton never threw bombs. I saw a great deal of his fights. He was a boxer/puncher. I saw both those guys since early 70's. Lyle would've taken Norton down in 1979. As I said earlier, in the early 70's Norton's skill would've won Lyle over.

[oogiebe]

to further my point, Norton had two fights in '79. A draw with LeDoux (Norton knocked down twice) and a ko loss to an old Shavers. So again, two shot fighters.