Oscar Rivas v. Daniel Dubois

[oogiebe]

I would love to see these to bangers mix it up. Not too sure it's too soon for Dubois at this point.

Thoughts? (no polls...aren't we happy?)

[funso banjo baby]

is it too soon to link Dubois to everybody?

erm......yes

atm he's fought tomato cans

[oogiebe]

is it too soon to link Dubois to everybody?

erm......yes

atm he's fought tomato cans

Somewhat agreed, but I'd like to see this matchup. ( I wish Rivas was moved along quicker, but damn he can bang)

[Lackeos]

Dubois is still super young, and a matchmaker would be extremely irresponsible to move him up this far. Dubois's best opponent had a boxrec rating of 14. Rivas has a rating of 47. A 20-year-old top prospect should be invested in, not flushed down the toilet by stepping up that far. You could match Dubois with Rivas like 6 fights from now if you are consistently stepping-up Dubois's competition and he is consistently winning each fight decisively. A sample progression would be like Dennis Lewandowski, then Solomon Haumono, then Sam Sexton, then Alexander Ustinov, then Oscar Rivas. Unless you're managing literally Mike Tyson, I wouldn't move a 20-year-old heavyweight any more aggressively than that.

Even in the case of Mike Tyson, there were only 3 pretty aggressive step-ups in his first 28 fights -- the Conroy Nelson, the Marvis Frazier fight, and the Trevor Berbick fight.

[oogiebe]

Dubois is still super young, and a matchmaker would be extremely irresponsible to move him up this far. Dubois's best opponent had a boxrec rating of 14. Rivas has a rating of 47. A 20-year-old top prospect should be invested in, not flushed down the toilet by stepping up that far. You could match Dubois with Rivas like 6 fights from now if you are consistently stepping-up Dubois's competition and he is consistently winning each fight decisively. A sample progression would be like Dennis Lewandowski, then Solomon Haumono, then Sam Sexton, then Alexander Ustinov, then Oscar Rivas. Unless you're managing literally Mike Tyson, I wouldn't move a 20-year-old heavyweight any more aggressively than that.

Even in the case of Mike Tyson, there were only 3 pretty aggressive step-ups in his first 28 fights -- the Conroy Nelson, the Marvis Frazier fight, and the Trevor Berbick fight.

For me it's not the development of Dubois, which I think they are smart to take the pace they are, just seeing two big bangers in there would be fun.

[sweetviolenturge]

Although Rivas hasn't really fought anyone yet other than the useful banger Joey Abell, at 23-0 he's far too advanced for Dubois at this point. A more evenly matched foe for Dubois would be Tyrone Spong who's 11-0 ( 11 KOs ) & just won a WBC Latino heavy title. Though it's highly doubtful if either one of their people would be willing to match them up so early in their development.

[candyslim]

Dubois is still super young, and a matchmaker would be extremely irresponsible to move him up this far. Dubois's best opponent had a boxrec rating of 14. Rivas has a rating of 47. A 20-year-old top prospect should be invested in, not flushed down the toilet by stepping up that far. You could match Dubois with Rivas like 6 fights from now if you are consistently stepping-up Dubois's competition and he is consistently winning each fight decisively. A sample progression would be like Dennis Lewandowski, then Solomon Haumono, then Sam Sexton, then Alexander Ustinov, then Oscar Rivas. Unless you're managing literally Mike Tyson, I wouldn't move a 20-year-old heavyweight any more aggressively than that.

Even in the case of Mike Tyson, there were only 3 pretty aggressive step-ups in his first 28 fights -- the Conroy Nelson, the Marvis Frazier fight, and the Trevor Berbick fight.

This.

[sweetviolenturge]

Dubois is still super young, and a matchmaker would be extremely irresponsible to move him up this far. Dubois's best opponent had a boxrec rating of 14. Rivas has a rating of 47. A 20-year-old top prospect should be invested in, not flushed down the toilet by stepping up that far. You could match Dubois with Rivas like 6 fights from now if you are consistently stepping-up Dubois's competition and he is consistently winning each fight decisively. A sample progression would be like Dennis Lewandowski, then Solomon Haumono, then Sam Sexton, then Alexander Ustinov, then Oscar Rivas. Unless you're managing literally Mike Tyson, I wouldn't move a 20-year-old heavyweight any more aggressively than that.

Even in the case of Mike Tyson, there were only 3 pretty aggressive step-ups in his first 28 fights -- the Conroy Nelson, the Marvis Frazier fight, and the Trevor Berbick fight.

I'm curious to know why you believe that Conroy Nelson was a fight in which Tyson stepped up his opposition in an "aggressive" way when he'd actually fought a couple/few guys by that point in his career who were as good, if not better than Nelson was at the time. Most notably Donnie Long & Eddie Richardson. Personally, I wouldn't say that Tyson's people dramatically increased his opposition until the Jesse Ferguson fight. But, then again, it's all subjective I suppose. But, was there some reason that you singled Conroy Nelson out in your post?

[jamamb]

Dubois is still super young, and a matchmaker would be extremely irresponsible to move him up this far. Dubois's best opponent had a boxrec rating of 14. Rivas has a rating of 47. A 20-year-old top prospect should be invested in, not flushed down the toilet by stepping up that far. You could match Dubois with Rivas like 6 fights from now if you are consistently stepping-up Dubois's competition and he is consistently winning each fight decisively. A sample progression would be like Dennis Lewandowski, then Solomon Haumono, then Sam Sexton, then Alexander Ustinov, then Oscar Rivas. Unless you're managing literally Mike Tyson, I wouldn't move a 20-year-old heavyweight any more aggressively than that.

Even in the case of Mike Tyson, there were only 3 pretty aggressive step-ups in his first 28 fights -- the Conroy Nelson, the Marvis Frazier fight, and the Trevor Berbick fight.

I'm curious to know why you believe that Conroy Nelson was a fight in which Tyson stepped up his opposition in an "aggressive" way when he'd actually fought a couple/few guys by that point in his career who were as good, if not better than Nelson was at the time. Most notably Donnie Long & Eddie Richardson. Personally, I wouldn't say that Tyson's people dramatically increased his opposition until the Jesse Ferguson fight. But, then again, it's all subjective I suppose. But, was there some reason that you singled Conroy Nelson out in your post?

he works purely on boxrec points, not actually watching fighters or knowing anything about them aside from the points

he got all pissy one time when i suggested tom schwarz fight dimitrenko, and his reason was purely that dimitrenko was too big a step up because dimmy had too many boxrec points

[Lackeos]

Dubois is still super young, and a matchmaker would be extremely irresponsible to move him up this far. Dubois's best opponent had a boxrec rating of 14. Rivas has a rating of 47. A 20-year-old top prospect should be invested in, not flushed down the toilet by stepping up that far. You could match Dubois with Rivas like 6 fights from now if you are consistently stepping-up Dubois's competition and he is consistently winning each fight decisively. A sample progression would be like Dennis Lewandowski, then Solomon Haumono, then Sam Sexton, then Alexander Ustinov, then Oscar Rivas. Unless you're managing literally Mike Tyson, I wouldn't move a 20-year-old heavyweight any more aggressively than that.

Even in the case of Mike Tyson, there were only 3 pretty aggressive step-ups in his first 28 fights -- the Conroy Nelson, the Marvis Frazier fight, and the Trevor Berbick fight.

I'm curious to know why you believe that Conroy Nelson was a fight in which Tyson stepped up his opposition in an "aggressive" way when he'd actually fought a couple/few guys by that point in his career who were as good, if not better than Nelson was at the time. Most notably Donnie Long & Eddie Richardson. Personally, I wouldn't say that Tyson's people dramatically increased his opposition until the Jesse Ferguson fight. But, then again, it's all subjective I suppose. But, was there some reason that you singled Conroy Nelson out in your post?

130% increase in boxrec rating between Conroy Nelson (53) and Long / Richardson (23). I think a standard step-up for a young prospect should be about a 20% increase. Based on boxrec ratings, it is actually his second biggest step-up proportionally after getting beyond opponents with single-digit ratings. Considering the pace of advancement that I advocated in the quoted post, it would have been intellectually dishonest if I overlooked this as an aggressive jump.

[Lackeos]

Dubois is still super young, and a matchmaker would be extremely irresponsible to move him up this far. Dubois's best opponent had a boxrec rating of 14. Rivas has a rating of 47. A 20-year-old top prospect should be invested in, not flushed down the toilet by stepping up that far. You could match Dubois with Rivas like 6 fights from now if you are consistently stepping-up Dubois's competition and he is consistently winning each fight decisively. A sample progression would be like Dennis Lewandowski, then Solomon Haumono, then Sam Sexton, then Alexander Ustinov, then Oscar Rivas. Unless you're managing literally Mike Tyson, I wouldn't move a 20-year-old heavyweight any more aggressively than that.

Even in the case of Mike Tyson, there were only 3 pretty aggressive step-ups in his first 28 fights -- the Conroy Nelson, the Marvis Frazier fight, and the Trevor Berbick fight.

I'm curious to know why you believe that Conroy Nelson was a fight in which Tyson stepped up his opposition in an "aggressive" way when he'd actually fought a couple/few guys by that point in his career who were as good, if not better than Nelson was at the time. Most notably Donnie Long & Eddie Richardson. Personally, I wouldn't say that Tyson's people dramatically increased his opposition until the Jesse Ferguson fight. But, then again, it's all subjective I suppose. But, was there some reason that you singled Conroy Nelson out in your post?

he works purely on boxrec points, not actually watching fighters or knowing anything about them aside from the points

he got all pissy one time when i suggested tom schwarz fight dimitrenko, and his reason was purely that dimitrenko was too big a step up because dimmy had too many boxrec points

An alternative interpretation is that I think you're an idiot when it comes to anticipating the matchmaking of fighters. In another thread, in which you derisively laughed at me for thinking that Schwarz's next opponent would not be Otto Wallin or better, I proposed a wager about whether Schwarz's next opponent would or would not be Otto Wallin or better. You haven't yet responded, and I think it is pretty clear why. You know that your theories about matchmaking don't hold water when put to the test, and you would be humiliated if you accepted.

[Kalan]

Dubois should fight both Wallin and Schwarz right now... He'd beat both...

He should be fighting tougher opponents and fighting a lot more fights a lot faster than he is... Like every 2 or 3 weeks.

[Wales]

Dubois should fight both Wallin and Schwarz right now... He'd beat both...

He should be fighting tougher opponents and fighting a lot more fights a lot faster than he is... Like every 2 or 3 weeks.

To be fair he only had something like 6 senior amateur fights then turned pro as a HW at 19

In a year he’s had 7 pro fights but hasn’t fought anyone with a losing record yet. Surely that’s better than 15 fights in 12months against 5-36 HW journeymen.

He’s won a regional British title, so the next step up is the British title . Unlike the last few years that’s actually a tough title to win with Sexton , Hughie Fury, Gorman, Dubois , Joyce in the mix. maybe even Price and Chisora.

At 20 it’s softly softly catchee monkey

[jamamb]

Dubois should fight both Wallin and Schwarz right now... He'd beat both...

He should be fighting tougher opponents and fighting a lot more fights a lot faster than he is... Like every 2 or 3 weeks.

To be fair he only had something like 6 senior amateur fights then turned pro as a HW at 19

In a year he’s had 7 pro fights but hasn’t fought anyone with a losing record yet. Surely that’s better than 15 fights in 12months against 5-36 HW journeymen.

He’s won a regional British title, so the next step up is the British title . Unlike the last few years that’s actually a tough title to win with Sexton , Hughie Fury, Gorman, Dubois , Joyce in the mix. maybe even Price and Chisora.

At 20 it’s softly softly catchee monkey

no value in his opponents records though. 4-12 soklowsi would be his best opponent and actually already brutally stopped aj carter before dubos managed the same

they are more concerned about vanity at the moment and buildng his monster image. hence guys who are super chnny/small/powerless. made to get stopped brutally.

hes clearly well beyond those guys even though hes young. he doesnt need a huge step up or anythng but i feel he should be moved soon or hell already be stagnating.

[Wales]

That’s the promoters job isn’t it.
To w arr en he’s a product that he’s trying to build up, sell to the public and thus make money from.
He’s a master at it too, he took Hatton to about 40-0 selling him as a world champion when all Hatton had was the WBU title and never fought a top 10 fighter till Tszyu.

Thing is with Dubois, he’s not currently actually that good. If I can see that fr a n k Warren is seeing it too.

At 20 he’s got potential. But a defeat won’t do him any good even if chances are he’d learn more from it than beating the guys he is now.

[Wales]

hes clearly well beyond those guys even though hes young. he doesnt need a huge step up or anythng but i feel he should be moved soon or hell already be stagnating.

You’re right , there’sdanger of him becoming complacent unless he’s tested. In my opinion the Problem for his promoter is he’s only one wrong choice from coming a cropper. For me he’s not a fighter who looks like he could steamroll his way to the top immediately. At British title level I’d pick Hughie Fury over him now, probably Joyce too. It’d Depend which Chisora showed up on the night. Who knows with Price, he’d surely get his chin tested in that one. He beats sexton and Gorman tho

[Kalan]

Dubois should fight both Wallin and Schwarz right now... He'd beat both...

He should be fighting tougher opponents and fighting a lot more fights a lot faster than he is... Like every 2 or 3 weeks.

To be fair he only had something like 6 senior amateur fights then turned pro as a HW at 19

In a year he’s had 7 pro fights but hasn’t fought anyone with a losing record yet. Surely that’s better than 15 fights in 12months against 5-36 HW journeymen.

He’s won a regional British title, so the next step up is the British title . Unlike the last few years that’s actually a tough title to win with Sexton , Hughie Fury, Gorman, Dubois , Joyce in the mix. maybe even Price and Chisora.

At 20 it’s softly softly catchee monkey

I don't care what his age is... He's a big dude and he's fast...and he has power... Get him fights and get him world ranked.

[candyslim]

No need to rush him but he does need opponents who can remain vertical for a few rounds. As Wales said there's some good competition at domestic level and I'd add Nick Webb and Dave Allen to that list of names.

I've mentioned Sokolowski and Kevin Johnson. Fighters that are either tough or cagey. Fred Kassi. Avery Gibson, Rodney Hernandez are imports I'd consider. Malik Scott might be one for a future step up. It's hard to look good against him but the guy is elusive and can box - a good learning experience.

Sam Sexton is a good target to aim for. Not too hard hitting but tough and capable. Start beating some of these level fighters and the ranking will follow.

[oogiebe]

Dubois should fight both Wallin and Schwarz right now... He'd beat both...

He should be fighting tougher opponents and fighting a lot more fights a lot faster than he is... Like every 2 or 3 weeks.

No way he should up the opposition to those levels yet. The kid is 20 and has a bright future.

[gilgamesh]

Dubois still needs a little more seasoning before you throw him in there with Top 25 kinda guys, but he's not too far off.

[Taansend]

Dubois is still super young, and a matchmaker would be extremely irresponsible to move him up this far. Dubois's best opponent had a boxrec rating of 14. Rivas has a rating of 47. A 20-year-old top prospect should be invested in, not flushed down the toilet by stepping up that far. You could match Dubois with Rivas like 6 fights from now if you are consistently stepping-up Dubois's competition and he is consistently winning each fight decisively. A sample progression would be like Dennis Lewandowski, then Solomon Haumono, then Sam Sexton, then Alexander Ustinov, then Oscar Rivas. Unless you're managing literally Mike Tyson, I wouldn't move a 20-year-old heavyweight any more aggressively than that.

Even in the case of Mike Tyson, there were only 3 pretty aggressive step-ups in his first 28 fights -- the Conroy Nelson, the Marvis Frazier fight, and the Trevor Berbick fight.

Excellent post

[jamamb]

he should fight someone like franz rill within the next year if he keeps blasting everyone away. maybe if lenroy thomas or sexton are respectable in their next fights (likely losses) he could fight one of them as well.

these are the types of steps up id have in mind.

also the aussie hw champ demsey mckean too.

[Taansend]

Dubois v Price please

[oogiebe]

I think the rapidity of his matches indicate a slow methodical development. Could be one to two years from fighting a decent journeyman, but he'll have racked up a good amount of rounds first. IMHO.

[jamamb]

well hes just easily blowing these guys out in usually 1 or 2 so far. hell have to have a lot of those to really get in many rounds, and i think below a certain point of rounds in a fight they arent so valuable even when added together. like if you have 100 first or second round knockouts, i dont think thats more valuable experience then having 5 10 round decisions

there matching him to get kos right now. its clear there more focused in building the image then really developing his experience in the ring with guys who usually go rounds or ask some questions. if they wanted the later they could at least try a guy like kamil sokolowski.

certainly, someone like rivas is likey way way way off the rader for now. there not even looking at guys who would simply go rounds in defeat, let alone an unbeaten olympian who can punch and pose a real threat