Ken Norton vs Vic Brown: Has anyone seen it or have any info regarding it?

[sweetviolenturge]

Ken Norton was the fighter who really piqued my interest in boxing & inspired me to not only become a lifelong rabid fan of the sport but to eventually become a professional pugilist myself. I got my training at Johnny Sudac's Singer's Gym in downtown Buffalo, NY. Which also happened to be the home of heavyweight journeyman Vic Brown a dangerous southpaw journeyman who won the national AAU heavyweight championship in 1963 & who went on to a long pro career in which he finished 29 - 30 mixing with the likes of Norton, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, George Chuvalo ( twice ), Al "Blue" Lewis & many others.
But, it's the Norton fight that interests me the most as I've read & heard differing accounts of it over the years.
According to boxrec Norton was dropped before rallying to KO Brown in the fifth round. While The Ring magazine account says that Norton was "staggered" in the first before scoring the KO5.
Brown meanwhile told me that he dropped Norton twice in the fight & had him all but KO'd before Norton caught up to him in round five.
So, I'd like to know if anyone out there has actually seen the 1971 bout either live or via film/tape. If not, has anyone read/heard any different accounts of the contest?

[scartissue]

I've seen it. It was played on the old 'Boxing from the Forum' series. I would see these on about a 6 month delay or longer. As for the fight, Brown did not knock Norton down. In the first round he made a mad charge at Ken who sort of fell into a corner, partially off balance and from Vic's punches, but not down. There was no count and the fight resumed where Ken started getting to Vic with combos and body blows and he ended it in the 4th. A boxing myth.

[SenorPipino]

I've seen it. It was played on the old 'Boxing from the Forum' series. I would see these on about a 6 month delay or longer. As for the fight, Brown did not knock Norton down. In the first round he made a mad charge at Ken who sort of fell into a corner, partially off balance and from Vic's punches, but not down. There was no count and the fight resumed where Ken started getting to Vic with combos and body blows and he ended it in the 4th. A boxing myth.

You gave a great memory.

I'm certain I saw that fight too because as you said, it was part of a weekly Forum promoted series that was televised live on Saturdays in Southern California.

But. I simply don't recall it. It was just a minor fight at the old Santa Monica Civic Auditorium in 1971.

It was Norton on the comeback trail after being shocked by Jose Luis Garcia 11 month earlier.

There was a poster here a few years back, the infamous Il Duce, who quoted a newspaper source (unnamed however) as reporting that Norton was legitimately knocked down in the 1st round by Brown.

According to the account provided, Norton was badly staggered by a hard right hook, and after several punches, he was floored with another hook.

Norton went down on his side, but was up at a 5 count.

He withstood Brown's follow up barrage and gradually took full control of the bout.

There's no mention of Brown decking Norton on two other occasions. Sometimes fighters do a little embellishing.

So some accounts are at odds with scartissue's recollection of the fight.

It might be best to try and uncover a Los Angeles Times report of the June 1971 fight. It might be available through online purchase or library microfilm.

[Tuan_Jim]

Il Duce was a troll account that wrote fictional accounts of fights and fighters. The man who wrote under that account is still an annoyance here, under various handles.

[SenorPipino]

Il Duce was a troll account that wrote fictional accounts of fights and fighters. The man who wrote under that account is still an annoyance here, under various handles.

Yes, I know ID had a reputation and was quite a character. That's why I referred to him as "infamous."

But he mostly trolled and agitated on the subject of Ali. That 's where he produced most if his mayhem.

His historical research and other contributions were otherwise fairly solid.

There really was no reason for him to fabricate a bogus account of Brown knocking down Norton.

But I did caution that Duce didn't offer the name of newspaper source, so it's understandable if scepticism remains.

So if ID is still here under other screen names, maybe he can clarify...if he wants to come out of the closet.

[Tuan_Jim]

Il Duce was a troll account that wrote fictional accounts of fights and fighters. The man who wrote under that account is still an annoyance here, under various handles.

Yes, I know ID had a reputation and was quite a character. That's why I referred to him as "infamous."

But he mostly trolled and agitated on the subject of Ali. That 's where he produced most if his mayhem.

His historical research and other contributions were otherwise fairly solid.

There really was no reason for him to fabricate a bogus account of Brown knocking down Norton.

But I did caution that Duce didn't offer the name of newspaper source, so it's understandable if scepticism remains.

So if ID is still here under other screen names, maybe he can clarify...if he wants to come out of the closet.

The fact you are so quick to defend an annoyance who spammed the forum with extensive fiction on all fighters makes you sound suspect. I was thinking of you when I wrote the post actually.

[Flump]

Il Duce was a troll account that wrote fictional accounts of fights and fighters. The man who wrote under that account is still an annoyance here, under various handles.

Yes, I know ID had a reputation and was quite a character. That's why I referred to him as "infamous."

But he mostly trolled and agitated on the subject of Ali. That 's where he produced most if his mayhem.

His historical research and other contributions were otherwise fairly solid.

There really was no reason for him to fabricate a bogus account of Brown knocking down Norton.

But I did caution that Duce didn't offer the name of newspaper source, so it's understandable if scepticism remains.

So if ID is still here under other screen names, maybe he can clarify...if he wants to come out of the closet.

Once a blue moon Il Duce had some interesting information, but the guy fabricated all sorts, I would not trust his judgement, he just liked to have a say on everything.

[SenorPipino]

See I disagree with you guys.

I reiterate that ID had some solid historical contributions. I think it's disingenuous to dismiss everything he wrote simply because he had a habit of going off the wall at times.

I loathed his Ali stuff, although eventually I "got it." He wasn't (in his mind) inventing incidents and conversations intending to fool anyone.

It was more a satirical, facetious account that he wasn't expecting anyone to actually take seriously.

Still, he beat a horse to death with it and I understand why so many were irritated by him.

But to the subject at hand, I lean toward the version he presented of Brown decking Norton as reality.

Googling it indicates in many different sites and accounts that the knockdown occured. But only ID provided details.

[Caractacus]

If you ever read Ken Norton's autobiography GOING THE DISTANCE.
It is really quite noticable that a large section of the manuscript
is not in the published book.
Particularly his fights the year or two(1971-early 1972) before he fought Ali the first time.
a big gap there for some reason,especially with no mention of his fight of the year nominee with Jack O'Halloran in early 1972 San Diego .
Were the pages lost somewhere ?
Norton goes into detail in a number of lesser fights later in the book.

[Tuan_Jim]

See I disagree with you guys.

I reiterate that ID had some solid historical contributions. I think it's disingenuous to dismiss everything he wrote simply because he had a habit of going off the wall at times.

I loathed his Ali stuff, although eventually I "got it." He wasn't (in his mind) inventing incidents and conversations intending to fool anyone.

It was more a satirical, facetious account that he wasn't expecting anyone to actually take seriously.

Still, he beat a horse to death with it and I understand why so many were irritated by him.

But to the subject at hand, I lean toward the version he presented of Brown decking Norton as reality.

Googling it indicates in many different sites and accounts that the knockdown occured. But only ID provided details.

Okay Boxbuzz.

[BoxBuzz]

See I disagree with you guys.

I reiterate that ID had some solid historical contributions. I think it's disingenuous to dismiss everything he wrote simply because he had a habit of going off the wall at times.

I loathed his Ali stuff, although eventually I "got it." He wasn't (in his mind) inventing incidents and conversations intending to fool anyone.

It was more a satirical, facetious account that he wasn't expecting anyone to actually take seriously.

Still, he beat a horse to death with it and I understand why so many were irritated by him.

But to the subject at hand, I lean toward the version he presented of Brown decking Norton as reality.

Googling it indicates in many different sites and accounts that the knockdown occured. But only ID provided details.

Okay Boxbuzz.

Not sure if you are imagining Senor Peppy here to actually be me.....or if you are just assigning his opinion to be of my ilk.

If the former....your just in simple error if the latter....meh....so what. I'm not on his page exactly, but he is sharing an opinion. And I guess it's not in line with your own.....and subsequently IF you feel the need to "imaginate in public" who am I to rob you of your jollies? Less offensive than other sorts of public exposure I suppose. You probably have a lot of pent up judgment with nowhere to go.

[sweetviolenturge]

Lol. And so the mystery more or less continues regarding the first round of this fight. Either Brown staggered him or he dropped him. We have an eyewitness who says the former & another source with a detailed account that says that a knockdown did occur. So, which one should I choose to believe?
Either way, it's clear that Brown did come out strong & hurt Norton with a right hook & a follow-up volley of punches. And that Norton recovered well & went on to not only KO Brown for the full count but also broke his jaw in the process.
Apparently a few years back there was a super 8mm film of the fight for sale on eBay. If true that means that footage of it does, indeed, exist. But, unfortunately, it's not available to the general public. Only to hardcore collectors with deep pockets.

[BoxBuzz]

I think mimmy has access to a lot of fight films, and knows where some rarities can be located. I'll give him a heads up.

[sweetviolenturge]

I think mimmy has access to a lot of fight films, and knows where some rarities can be located. I'll give him a heads up.

Thanks, Buzz.

[SenorPipino]

I think that Il Duce quoting the unnamed newspaper source as reporting that Norton was dropped and hurt by "right hooks" lends credibility to the account.

Brown was a southpaw so he would be doing damage with that right hook.

If Il Duce, for whatever reason, fabricated the account, he would very well be unaware that the lightly regarded Brown was a left hander, and would have described the punches as traditional "left" hooks.

Since right hooks were reported as the knockdown weapon, it makes it even more likely that he was accurately quoting a ringside newspaper reporter's account of the fight. And that the debated knockdown of Norton did occur.

[wouter]

I think that Il Duce quoting the unnamed newspaper source as reporting that Norton was dropped and hurt by "right hooks" lends credibility to the account.

Brown was a southpaw so he would be doing damage with that right hook.

If Il Duce, for whatever reason, fabricated the account, he would very well be unaware that the lightly regarded Brown was a left hander, and would have described the punches as traditional "left" hooks.

Since right hooks were reported as the knockdown weapon, it makes it even more likely that he was accurately quoting a ringside newspaper reporter's account of the fight. And that the debated knockdown of Norton did occur.

Look, we're not going to debate Il Duce's fantasyland accounts here. If you and him are the same, you can look forward to a a permanent ban as well.

[SenorPipino]

I think that Il Duce quoting the unnamed newspaper source as reporting that Norton was dropped and hurt by "right hooks" lends credibility to the account.

Brown was a southpaw so he would be doing damage with that right hook.

If Il Duce, for whatever reason, fabricated the account, he would very well be unaware that the lightly regarded Brown was a left hander, and would have described the punches as traditional "left" hooks.

Since right hooks were reported as the knockdown weapon, it makes it even more likely that he was accurately quoting a ringside newspaper reporter's account of the fight. And that the debated knockdown of Norton did occur.

Look, we're not going to debate Il Duce's fantasyland accounts here. If you and him are the same, you can look forward to a a permanent ban as well.

Maybe you should check a newspaper account of the fight before making such an unfounded accusation.

[klompton]

I cant believe some of you morons actually still buy into ANYTHING that pestilence Il Duce wrote. The fact that some of you defend him after all of the nonsense bullshit he spewed is mystifying. Particularly Boxbuzz's continued limp wristed treatment of him as a mod. Good god. The only time Il Duce ever offered up anything factually accurate was either by accident or to sprinkle his lies with just enough reality to fool people into believing them. The guy was exposed so many times on every forum that hes been repeatedly banned from that it wouldn't take more than 5 second search to realize hes more full of shit than a Christmas turkey.

[Tuan_Jim]

I think that Il Duce quoting the unnamed newspaper source as reporting that Norton was dropped and hurt by "right hooks" lends credibility to the account.

Brown was a southpaw so he would be doing damage with that right hook.

If Il Duce, for whatever reason, fabricated the account, he would very well be unaware that the lightly regarded Brown was a left hander, and would have described the punches as traditional "left" hooks.

Since right hooks were reported as the knockdown weapon, it makes it even more likely that he was accurately quoting a ringside newspaper reporter's account of the fight. And that the debated knockdown of Norton did occur.

Look, we're not going to debate Il Duce's fantasyland accounts here. If you and him are the same, you can look forward to a a permanent ban as well.

'Pipino' is obviously the same bloke. A small number of accounts, all of whom write in that same Duce/Boxbuzz style, are far too keen to defend Duce's enormous output of idiotic fan fiction, thankfully all erased. All these accounts need to go. We lost Saad, lost Alp, lost so many quality posters and discussions, all because of one freak who wants to fill BOTP with his creations and make it his dumb little fantasy world.

[Tuan_Jim]

I cant believe some of you morons actually still buy into ANYTHING that pestilence Il Duce wrote. The fact that some of you defend him after all of the nonsense bullshit he spewed is mystifying. Particularly Boxbuzz's continued limp wristed treatment of him as a mod. Good god. The only time Il Duce ever offered up anything factually accurate was either by accident or to sprinkle his lies with just enough reality to fool people into believing them. The guy was exposed so many times on every forum that hes been repeatedly banned from that it wouldn't take more than 5 second search to realize hes more full of poo than a Christmas turkey.

Read Duce next to Boxbuzz. They're the same man.

Kalan is also Boxbuzz, hence the same limp wristed treatment.

All these never-ending 'verbal sparring' sessions between them are one man switching from one character to another.

[Caractacus]

[BoxBuzz]

I cant believe some of you morons actually still buy into ANYTHING that pestilence Il Duce wrote. The fact that some of you defend him after all of the nonsense bullshit he spewed is mystifying. Particularly Boxbuzz's continued limp wristed treatment of him as a mod. Good god. The only time Il Duce ever offered up anything factually accurate was either by accident or to sprinkle his lies with just enough reality to fool people into believing them. The guy was exposed so many times on every forum that hes been repeatedly banned from that it wouldn't take more than 5 second search to realize hes more full of poo than a Christmas turkey.

Read Duce next to Boxbuzz. They're the same man.

Kalan is also Boxbuzz, hence the same limp wristed treatment.

All these never-ending 'verbal sparring' sessions between them are one man switching from one character to another.

Hmmm me thinks she protests too much.

I'm always willing to engage with the oddballs around here, and guess what? Looks like your next. Now be careful or your going to start believing that you are me as well. But lets' get this sorted......you have no time for those with odd or differing opinions? but you do have a "theory" or "opinion" that I'm everyone here that has ever annoyed you.

Sounds like just another fella with an eccentric agenda.

Like Iv'e said to your all your cousins.....(you know those folks you purport to dislike, and imagine that perhaps are my doppelgangers)

"Feel free to express your opinion on boxing, and enjoy the forum. And follow the rules..... "

By the way......many of these fellas you don't like were shown the door. Though it sounds like they were tolerated too long for your tastes.

By the way....you have no future as a linguistics expert. So you might want to keep that car wash job you've got.

[SenorPipino]

Suddenly there sure are a lot of people here who are supposedly someone else.

This should be part of that conspiracy thread.

I tend to believe that most posters are who they say they are. Who has the time to argue with yourself? And why bother?

[klompton]

“I’m always willing to engage with oddballs” -Boxbuzz

What a monumental waste of time and way to poison this forum. Mission accomplished. Whoever made you a mod needs their head examined.

[BoxBuzz]

“I’m always willing to engage with oddballs” -Boxbuzz

What a monumental waste of time and way to poison this forum. Mission accomplished. Whoever made you a mod needs their head examined.

Klompton, you'll be happy to know that we are engaging a new sort of identifying system to sort out the multiple personalities among us. As far as your tolerance for the unique opinions among us, I'm sure you could sort it quickly.

I often like reading your contributions....but based on this you just might qualify as a pious self aggrandizing ass, with low tolerance for diversity of opinions. Interesting....as a writer I would expect that you would be a bit open minded, and wanting to have evidence to support your theories.

Unless you have your premise first, and then follow it up by simply utilizing your discovery process to gather all the facts that support your pre determined premise. ...... I'm just sayin'.

Doesn't make you a bad person......just narrow minded judgmental intellectual who already has all the answers. I sort of like that self confidence, but I also like to gather my own facts and determine credibility in my own way. I liked your book. But will wonder just how it came to pass and how authentic your various assumptions may or may not be.


By the way....your not exactly the "average" contributory yourself......no one is.