Oscar De La Hoya and judges

[Onamastus]

Oscar De La Hoya was America’s only gold medalist at the 92 Olympics. As a pro he was the biggest star in boxing, so big that even the iconic 96-1-1 Julio Cesar Chavez played the role of opponent against him. The questionable decision he was given against Pernell Whitaker was reflective of his superstar status. He got away with another close one against Ike Quartey.

And yet in ‘The Fight of the Century,’ on a Bob Arum show, on HBO, in front of Vegas judges, DLH - young, good-looking, charismatic - somehow lost a fight he appeared to have won against Felix Trinidad, an away fighter who was promoted by Don King, didn’t speak English, boxed on a rival network, and was unknown outside of hardcore boxing fans.

How do you think this happened? Was it purely down to King and his influence over the judges? It would be the equivalent today of Canelo or Mayweather losing a decision they clearly deserved.  

Amazingly, it happened to him again, losing to Shane Mosley, another relatively unknown fighter with little crossover potential, who was moving up in weight and fighting on a Bob Arum show, in De La Hoya’s hometown of LA. Mosley did seem to have won narrowly, but it still surprises me that the Golden Boy didn’t get the decision, given the circumstances.

Even when Mosley proved to be a bust, losing back-to-back fights to Vernon Forrest, he rematched De La Hoya and was given another decision over him, one that he obviously didn’t deserve.

How was boxing's only megastar allowed to lose two fights he obviously won, and one that was close enough to give him? 

[Duran1970]

I dont think the Trinidad fight was a robbery...he gave it away

[Onetimeonly]

That was an arum/king show. I thought Oscar edged it but I won $250 on Tito and he ran like a school girl instead of staying the course.

[Perseus]

The "A" side doesn't need to get the decision to remain the "A" side for future events.
No matter what the whiners scream the reality is the "A" side doesn't get the decision every time he finishes on his feet, DLH is proof of that.
Sometimes the "A" side fighter is even on the wrong side of a blatant robbery.

[jas80s]

This is a really good point. I would add that I thought Oscar won the rematch with Shane and didn't get the nod in that one either.

I also thought DLH edged the decision over Trinidad. In fact, I thought the fight was easy to score. Perhaps, the judges were not expecting Oscar to out box him so definitively and were slow to give him some early rounds.

So, is the theory that DLH saw how questionable judging can hurt a fighter's earning power, so he made sure that wouldn't happen to his cash cow when he moved over to promoting fights? As conspiracy theories go, that's not too bad.

[Onamastus]

That was an arum/king show. I thought Oscar edged it but I won $250 on Tito and he ran like a school girl instead of staying the course.

I think it was officially an Arum Top Rank show. Boxing Monthly called King only "a partner of sorts for the promotion." Boxrec lists it as an Arum show.

Regarding the ODLH-Tito verdict: in a poll of the top boxing writers ringside, 16 had it for Oscar (!!), three for Trinidad and two a draw. Hugh McIlvanney, Jerry Izenberg, Ron Borges et al had Oscar, Graham Houston had it a draw.

I don't see how you can win eight rounds and then lose a 12 round decision, unless you're knocked down, which Oscar wasn't. His running away at the end was odious though, no disagreement there.

It still mystifies me that the sport's biggest non-heavyweight attraction was allowed to lose.

[Onamastus]

So, is the theory that DLH saw how questionable judging can hurt a fighter's earning power, so he made sure that wouldn't happen to his cash cow when he moved over to promoting fights? As conspiracy theories go, that's not too bad.

I'm sure those decisions he lost affects boxing to this day, and the miraculous way he preserves Canelo's record.

[Onetimeonly]

That was an arum/king show. I thought Oscar edged it but I won $250 on Tito and he ran like a school girl instead of staying the course.

I think it was officially an Arum Top Rank show. Boxing Monthly called King only "a partner of sorts for the promotion." Boxrec lists it as an Arum show.

Regarding the ODLH-Tito verdict: in a poll of the top boxing writers ringside, 16 had it for Oscar (!!), three for Trinidad and two a draw. Hugh McIlvanney, Jerry Izenberg, Ron Borges et al had Oscar, Graham Houston had it a draw.

I don't see how you can win eight rounds and then lose a 12 round decision, unless you're knocked down, which Oscar wasn't. His running away at the end was odious though, no disagreement there.

It still mystifies me that the sport's biggest non-heavyweight attraction was allowed to lose.

I watched a guy win 15 RDS in his hometown and lose. I thought this was a clear 7-5 for Oscar, nowhere near the worst. Don king was Tito's promoter. If you don't think he carried influence, don't know what to say. Richard Steele probably lived in his basement.

[Onamastus]

I think it was officially an Arum Top Rank show. Boxing Monthly called King only "a partner of sorts for the promotion." Boxrec lists it as an Arum show.

Regarding the ODLH-Tito verdict: in a poll of the top boxing writers ringside, 16 had it for Oscar (!!), three for Trinidad and two a draw. Hugh McIlvanney, Jerry Izenberg, Ron Borges et al had Oscar, Graham Houston had it a draw.

I don't see how you can win eight rounds and then lose a 12 round decision, unless you're knocked down, which Oscar wasn't. His running away at the end was odious though, no disagreement there.

It still mystifies me that the sport's biggest non-heavyweight attraction was allowed to lose.

I watched a guy win 15 RDS in his hometown and lose. I thought this was a clear 7-5 for Oscar, nowhere near the worst. Don king was Tito's promoter. If you don't think he carried influence, don't know what to say. Richard Steele probably lived in his basement.

No I asked in the opening post whether we thought King influenced the judges that night. Maybe his power was greater than Oscar's fame!

[Perseus]

That was an arum/king show. I thought Oscar edged it but I won $250 on Tito and he ran like a school girl instead of staying the course.

I think it was officially an Arum Top Rank show. Boxing Monthly called King only "a partner of sorts for the promotion." Boxrec lists it as an Arum show.

Regarding the ODLH-Tito verdict: in a poll of the top boxing writers ringside, 16 had it for Oscar (!!), three for Trinidad and two a draw. Hugh McIlvanney, Jerry Izenberg, Ron Borges et al had Oscar, Graham Houston had it a draw.

I don't see how you can win eight rounds and then lose a 12 round decision, unless you're knocked down, which Oscar wasn't. His running away at the end was odious though, no disagreement there.

It still mystifies me that the sport's biggest non-heavyweight attraction was allowed to lose.

Did you miss the part where the "A" side can lose and still be the "A" side for future fights?
I didn't just make that up, the star fighters can get beat on occasion and still retain their drawing power.

[Ambling Alp II]

I had DLH up 7-2 after 9 rounds. His trainer, Gil Clancy told him he had the fight won and to stay away. Terrible advice. Trinidad won the last three rounds (or rather DLH gave them away.) I still scored it 7-5 for DLH.

Some people will say well 7-5, it was close, right?
Yes and no. The problem is, that you have to look at the individual rounds. Trinidad, (who did little most of the fight) simply did not win another two rounds. There are not two more rounds that were close enough to go the other way.
To give him 7 rounds, you would have to give him rounds that he clearly did not win.

Were the judges corrupt? Of course. Why? Don King.

[Onamastus]

I think it was officially an Arum Top Rank show. Boxing Monthly called King only "a partner of sorts for the promotion." Boxrec lists it as an Arum show.

Regarding the ODLH-Tito verdict: in a poll of the top boxing writers ringside, 16 had it for Oscar (!!), three for Trinidad and two a draw. Hugh McIlvanney, Jerry Izenberg, Ron Borges et al had Oscar, Graham Houston had it a draw.

I don't see how you can win eight rounds and then lose a 12 round decision, unless you're knocked down, which Oscar wasn't. His running away at the end was odious though, no disagreement there.

It still mystifies me that the sport's biggest non-heavyweight attraction was allowed to lose.

Did you miss the part where the "A" side can lose and still be the "A" side for future fights?
I didn't just make that up, the star fighters can get beat on occasion and still retain their drawing power.

A sides the magnitude of De La Hoya? I can't think of many examples in the modern era but am willing to learn.

Manny's loss to Tim Bradley was inexplicable I suppose.

[margaret thatcher]

It happens occasionally, though obviously questionable decisions benefit the A side way way way more

[Onamastus]

I had DLH up 7-2 after 9 rounds. His trainer, Gil Clancy told him he had the fight won and to stay away. Terrible advice. Trinidad won the last three rounds (or rather DLH gave them away.) I still scored it 7-5 for DLH.

Some people will say well 7-5, it was close, right?
Yes and no. The problem is, that you have to look at the individual rounds. Trinidad, (who did little most of the fight) simply did not win another two rounds. There are not two more rounds that were close enough to go the other way.
To give him 7 rounds, you would have to give him rounds that he clearly did not win.

Were the judges corrupt? Of course. Why? Don King.

Growing consensus is King won it for Tito, aided by De La Hoya's poor strategic decision.

The two Mosley fights though. One in LA! How did he not get those decisions?

[Perseus]

Did you miss the part where the "A" side can lose and still be the "A" side for future fights?
I didn't just make that up, the star fighters can get beat on occasion and still retain their drawing power.

A sides the magnitude of De La Hoya? I can't think of many examples in the modern era but am willing to learn.

Manny's loss to Tim Bradley was inexplicable I suppose.

Did DLH lose any of his "A" side status by losing those fights?

When was Oscar the "B" side and getting the much smaller percentage of the purse?

[Onamastus]

A sides the magnitude of De La Hoya? I can't think of many examples in the modern era but am willing to learn.

Manny's loss to Tim Bradley was inexplicable I suppose.

Did DLH lose any of his "A" side status by losing those fights?

When was Oscar the "B" side and getting the much smaller percentage of the purse?

You're answering questions with questions! I think someone of De La Hoya's megastar status getting robbed is unparalleled in the modern era, but admittedly I haven't racked my brains too much here.

Oscar remained the A side yes, but his earnings arguably were diminished. Going into the Sturm fight with a glistering 39-0 record would have made that one much, much bigger, and then into Hopkins at 40-0, for all the marbles, would have been a mega epic.

[Perseus]

I answered the question.
You're ignoring the answer.

Star power is star power.
It's not like the DLH/Hopkins fight was a flop.
SRL hadn't fought in over three years yet the Hagler fight was a huge event at the time.

Since you mentioned Sturm......it's interesting that you have spent a lot of time complaining about DLH losing a couple tight decisions and briefly mentioned getting wins in a couple other close fights but have haven't said anything about the decision in that Sturm fight.
With judging that is acceptable to your standards should Oscar really be undefeated going into the Hopkins fight?

[Onamastus]

I answered the question.
You're ignoring the answer.

Star power is star power.
It's not like the DLH/Hopkins fight was a flop.
SRL hadn't fought in over three years yet the Hagler fight was a huge event at the time.

Since you mentioned Sturm......it's interesting that you have spent a lot of time complaining about DLH losing a couple tight decisions and briefly mentioned getting wins in a couple other close fights but have haven't said anything about the decision in that Sturm fight.
With judging that is acceptable to your standards should Oscar really be undefeated going into the Hopkins fight?

I'm not an Oscar fan and I'm not complaining about him losing any decisions. I don't even like him. It's a boxer of his import losing decisions in his backyard to comparatively specialist interest fighters that fascinates me. He obviously lost to Sturm.

Leonard was an even bigger star than Oscar, so him upsetting Hagler can hardly be compared to Felix and Shane getting gifts.

[Perseus]

I didn't say anything about who won the SRL/Hagler fight my point was about star power.
Once you have the star power you keep it, star power usually lasts much longer than boxing ability and can certainly survive a few losses.

[Onetimeonly]

Did you miss the part where the "A" side can lose and still be the "A" side for future fights?
I didn't just make that up, the star fighters can get beat on occasion and still retain their drawing power.

A sides the magnitude of De La Hoya? I can't think of many examples in the modern era but am willing to learn.

Manny's loss to Tim Bradley was inexplicable I suppose.

Tito was an a side too.

[Onamastus]

A sides the magnitude of De La Hoya? I can't think of many examples in the modern era but am willing to learn.

Manny's loss to Tim Bradley was inexplicable I suppose.

Tito was an a side too.

But not the magnitude of Oscar, you would agree? He didn't speak English, had no charisma and never crossed over like Oscar, Floyd and Ray, Mike Tyson et al. He was telegenic and exciting of course.

[Onetimeonly]

Tito was an a side too.

But not the magnitude of Oscar, you would agree? He didn't speak English, had no charisma and never crossed over like Oscar, Floyd and Ray, Mike Tyson et al. He was telegenic and exciting of course.

Not quite, pretty close. Just because Tyson was a huge star that doesn't mean holyfield wasn't. Whatever, I don't get your point. Have fun.

[Ambling Alp II]

I had DLH up 7-2 after 9 rounds. His trainer, Gil Clancy told him he had the fight won and to stay away. Terrible advice. Trinidad won the last three rounds (or rather DLH gave them away.) I still scored it 7-5 for DLH.

Some people will say well 7-5, it was close, right?
Yes and no. The problem is, that you have to look at the individual rounds. Trinidad, (who did little most of the fight) simply did not win another two rounds. There are not two more rounds that were close enough to go the other way.
To give him 7 rounds, you would have to give him rounds that he clearly did not win.

Were the judges corrupt? Of course. Why? Don King.

Growing consensus is King won it for Tito, aided by De La Hoya's poor strategic decision.

The two Mosley fights though. One in LA! How did he not get those decisions?

The first Mosley fight was a great fight, but Mosley deserved one the decision. I have never heard anyone complain about that one. The second fight was not nearly as good, but DLH should have got the decision in that one.

[Onetimeonly]

Yeah, easy fight to score. It was 4-2 Oscar and then Shane swept him. Great fight. The Tito fight was 7-5 clear as a bell. I thought Oscar won the Shane rematch watching it live, again I won money and that fight was pretty dreadful, never watched it again. I don't think it was as clear as the other two.

[Onamastus]

Growing consensus is King won it for Tito, aided by De La Hoya's poor strategic decision.

The two Mosley fights though. One in LA! How did he not get those decisions?

The first Mosley fight was a great fight, but Mosley deserved one the decision. I have never heard anyone complain about that one. The second fight was not nearly as good, but DLH should have got the decision in that one.

Yes I thought Mosley won. Surprised he got the decision in LA though. The rematch still baffles me.