Muhammed Ali (past-prime) vs. Sonny Liston (prime)

[Tevfik1907]

Ali shortly after returning from being a conscientious objector, same as he was in the first Frazier fight.

Sonny Liston as of prime.

[goose 5]

Great question that you've proposed !Prime Liston wins against any version of Ali post return from exile.

[Tevfik1907]

Great question that you've proposed !Prime Liston wins against any version of Ali post return from exile.

I think Ali got better a year or two later after FotC, around 1973-74 he was not bad.

But 1970-71 (FotC) Ali could lose this.

So Ali 1962-67 > Ali 1973-77 > Ali 1970-72

[DrDuke]

Great question that you've proposed !Prime Liston wins against any version of Ali post return from exile.

I think Ali got better a year or two later after FotC, around 1973-74 he was not bad.

But 1970-71 (FotC) Ali could lose this.

So Ali 1962-67 > Ali 1973-77 > Ali 1970-72

Really? Ali was never the same after FotC. Actually, that's where his prime truly ends. The same can be said about Smokin' Joe.

[Tevfik1907]

I think Ali got better a year or two later after FotC, around 1973-74 he was not bad.

But 1970-71 (FotC) Ali could lose this.

So Ali 1962-67 > Ali 1973-77 > Ali 1970-72

Really? Ali was never the same after FotC. Actually, that's where his prime truly ends. The same can be said about Smokin' Joe.

Ali still needed time to recover after 3,5 years gap where he didn't fight with anybody, he get better and better in 1 or 2 years after the first Frazier fight, but then this time he started to grow old and he lost his blinding speed when he was already 31-32 years old (1973). That's why he was never the same, that wasn't just 3 years they stole it from him, I say it's 5 years they stole it from him.

Frazier was 2 years younger than Ali, and despite that Frazier didn't perform good in the second against Ali, not nearly as good as he did in the first fight against Ali.

[DrDuke]

Really? Ali was never the same after FotC. Actually, that's where his prime truly ends. The same can be said about Smokin' Joe.

Ali still needed time to recover after 3,5 years gap where he didn't fight with anybody, he get better and better in 1 or 2 years after the first Frazier fight, but then this time he started to grow old and he lost his blinding speed when he was already 31-32 years old (1973). That's why he was never the same, that wasn't just 3 years they stole it from him, I say it's 5 years they stole it from him.

Frazier was 2 years younger than Ali, and despite that Frazier didn't perform good in the second against Ali, not nearly as good as he did in the first fight against Ali.

Ali was off the ring for quite a while, but he had opportunities to get rid of the rust. Boxers lose their life forces in the ring, not outside of it, unless it's Mike Tyson, Johnny Tapia and etc. Ali was well-prepared for Frazier, but it was Smokin' Joe, who took a lot from Ali, not someone or somthing else. What particular performances of Ali after FotC make you think, that Ali became better?

[Tevfik1907]

What particular performances of Ali after FotC make you think, that Ali became better?

Defeating Frazier twice afterwards? Especially decisively defeating him in the third fight?

[Seamus]

Ali by late stoppage. Too much speed and skill for Liston.

[Tony1244]

How past his prime? Huge difference between Ali in 1975-76 and 1978.

The Ali of Manila would likely win. By the time he got to Spinks, no way.

[Tevfik1907]

How past his prime? Huge difference between Ali in 1975-76 and 1978.

Read the first post.

[gilgamesh]

He might've won by decision instead of stoppage, but he'd have still won.

[Tony1244]

How past his prime? Huge difference between Ali in 1975-76 and 1978.

Read the first post.

Good advice.

Ali

[DrDuke]

What particular performances of Ali after FotC make you think, that Ali became better?

Defeating Frazier twice afterwards? Especially decisively defeating him in the third fight?

Frazier was much worse both of those times, than he was in FotC.

[Tony1244]

I don't think Ali was as far off his peak in the early 70s as others do. He had hand injuries in the early 70s which didn't help. His peak was 64-67, but he still was somewhat effective thru 1976.

Jimmy Young and Norton were tough nuts to crack at their best. Starting in 1977, you could start seeing a real nosedive.

[Ambling Alp II]

He was rusty as as you would expect when he first came back. He was never going to be as good as he once after being off all that time. However, you could tell he was getting rid of some of the ring rust. He fought quite a bit in 1972 and you could clearly tell he was in better form than he was when he first came back.

The Ali that beat Foreman and Frazier, for example, would have beaten any version of Liston.

After the 3rd Frazier fight, as others have noted, he started to decline. Liston could have beaten him from 1976 on. Hard to say about 1970-1971.

We probably talk about Ali's post prime about 10x as much as his prime. We never seem to do that with other boxers.

[oogiebe]

He was rusty as as you would expect when he first came back. He was never going to be as good as he once after being off all that time. However, you could tell he was getting rid of some of the ring rust. He fought quite a bit in 1972 and you could clearly tell he was in better form than he was when he first came back.

The Ali that beat Foreman and Frazier, for example, would have beaten any version of Liston.

After the 3rd Frazier fight, as others have noted, he started to decline. Liston could have beaten him from 1976 on. Hard to say about 1970-1971.

We probably talk about Ali's post prime about 10x as much as his prime. We never seem to do that with other boxers.

I agree. I still think had Ali had one or two more fights after his layoff, he'd had beaten any Frazier put in front of him.

[Tevfik1907]

Defeating Frazier twice afterwards? Especially decisively defeating him in the third fight?

Frazier was much worse both of those times, than he was in FotC.

And why is that? Frazier is 2 years younger than Ali.

[Tony1244]

He was rusty as as you would expect when he first came back. He was never going to be as good as he once after being off all that time. However, you could tell he was getting rid of some of the ring rust. He fought quite a bit in 1972 and you could clearly tell he was in better form than he was when he first came back.

The Ali that beat Foreman and Frazier, for example, would have beaten any version of Liston.

After the 3rd Frazier fight, as others have noted, he started to decline. Liston could have beaten him from 1976 on. Hard to say about 1970-1971.

We probably talk about Ali's post prime about 10x as much as his prime. We never seem to do that with other boxers.

The Ali in the 3rd Norton fight (1976) still has something left even though Ken was robbed.

[Tony1244]

Frazier was much worse both of those times, than he was in FotC.

And why is that? Frazier is 2 years younger than Ali.

Because of Frazier's style, he took more punishment, so I think he had a shorter prime.

[DrDuke]

Frazier was much worse both of those times, than he was in FotC.

And why is that? Frazier is 2 years younger than Ali.

He was a different kind of a fighter. With an explosive and fast rise, and a relatively fast end.