Lets Discuss - Tim Witherspoon v Frank Bruno 1986

[MasterG]

Up and coming Frank Bruno against tough world class champion Tim Witherspoon.

[bennie]

Lloyd Honeyghan fell out with Bruno over this because everything was set up for a Bruno world title win; a champion who barely trained, a champion with no motivation, a champion away from home... Big Frank failed to take his chance while a month later Honeyghan went to the States and deposed the unbeaten Don Curry in six barnstorming rounds.
As for Witherspoon, he lost to Bonecrusher Smith within a round next time out.

[bigjack]

Lloyd Honeyghan fell out with Bruno over this because everything was set up for a Bruno world title win; a champion who barely trained, a champion with no motivation, a champion away from home... Big Frank failed to take his chance while a month later Honeyghan went to the States and deposed the unbeaten Don Curry in six barnstorming rounds.
As for Witherspoon, he lost to Bonecrusher Smith within a round next time out.

Colin Hart from The Sun picked Bruno in 7 due to Witherspoon turning up looking like a tub of lard,even that version of the Spoon was too good for Frank.I went to that fight at the old Wembley Stadium and remember the torrent of piss running out of the bogs which was ankle deep.

[banjo]

I'm going to be the contrarian one and say I don't think there was anything wrong Witherspoons physical state in that fight and the result basically proved it. It's not like he got lucky, he was getting stronger as the fight went on.

[Onamastus]

Lloyd Honeyghan fell out with Bruno over this because everything was set up for a Bruno world title win; a champion who barely trained, a champion with no motivation, a champion away from home... Big Frank failed to take his chance while a month later Honeyghan went to the States and deposed the unbeaten Don Curry in six barnstorming rounds.
As for Witherspoon, he lost to Bonecrusher Smith within a round next time out.

Do you think Spoon losing in a round next time out had more to do with the demoralising effects of Don King whittling down his 1m Bruno payday to 100k?

I think Bonecrusher loses to Wembley Witherspoon just as he had lost to him before.

[bigjack]

I'm going to be the contrarian one and say I don't think there was anything wrong Witherspoons physical state in that fight and the result basically proved it. It's not like he got lucky, he was getting stronger as the fight went on.

There were a few heavies in that era that looked out of shape but weren't,Tubbs was a classic example.People were used to Ali,Holmes,Norton etc all being in shape and made the mistake of thinking Witherspoon was unfit,far from it.I did hear that Witherspoon could get out of his contract with King if he lost the title,so threw the fight with Bonecrusher,how true that is I don't know

[Onamastus]

I'm going to be the contrarian one and say I don't think there was anything wrong Witherspoons physical state in that fight and the result basically proved it. It's not like he got lucky, he was getting stronger as the fight went on.

There were a few heavies in that era that looked out of shape but weren't,Tubbs was a classic example.People were used to Ali,Holmes,Norton etc all being in shape and made the mistake of thinking Witherspoon was unfit,far from it.I did hear that Witherspoon could get out of his contract with King if he lost the title,so threw the fight with Bonecrusher,how true that is I don't know

Clearly not true judging by the fight. He was trying to take Smith's head off. He definitely wasn't up for the fight mentally as he had been for Bruno though.

[Onamastus]

I'm going to be the contrarian one and say I don't think there was anything wrong Witherspoons physical state in that fight and the result basically proved it. It's not like he got lucky, he was getting stronger as the fight went on.

He made hard work of it. In tip top condition versus Holmes he was sublime. In pudgy shape, less so. I doubt Bruno goes 11 rounds versus the Holmes version of Terrible Tim.

[cormack]

lets not

[bennie]

I thought I would catch the Smith-Witherspoon world heavyweight title fight (cough, cough). Smith has Witherspoon going with his very first punch, after which it descends into a wild-swinging embarrassment. How the hell did Bruno lose to those two!

[Old bones Ian]

I thought I would catch the Smith-Witherspoon world heavyweight title fight (cough, cough). Smith has Witherspoon going with his very first punch, after which it descends into a wild-swinging embarrassment. How the hell did Bruno lose to those two!

Harsh for you Bennie, Witherspoon had almost beat Holmes, and Smith went on to give Holmes problems.
I've never brought into the thrown fight by Witherspoon, if he'd beaten Smith then it would of been a Tyson payday

[Controversial]

I thought I would catch the Smith-Witherspoon world heavyweight title fight (cough, cough). Smith has Witherspoon going with his very first punch, after which it descends into a wild-swinging embarrassment. How the hell did Bruno lose to those two!

To be fair Bruno was ahead on the cards against Smith

[Controversial]

To be fair Bruno was ahead on the cards against Smith

Doesn’t matter if you get knocked the eff out

No it doesn’t, I just meant he was holding his own, he was ahead against Lennox too

[GPTM1403]

I'm going to be the contrarian one and say I don't think there was anything wrong Witherspoons physical state in that fight and the result basically proved it. It's not like he got lucky, he was getting stronger as the fight went on.

There were a few heavies in that era that looked out of shape but weren't,Tubbs was a classic example.People were used to Ali,Holmes,Norton etc all being in shape and made the mistake of thinking Witherspoon was unfit,far from it.I did hear that Witherspoon could get out of his contract with King if he lost the title,so threw the fight with Bonecrusher,how true that is I don't know

That has been around almost since that time so while it's hard to tell how true it actually was it's not something that came up 20 years later. Witherspoon definitely was hacked off that Bruno walked away with massively more than him.

[THEBUTCH]

Witherspoon didn't appear in tip top condition but clearly had plenty to offer and showed grit to come through Bruno's fine start until Tim started taking over by about the 8th round. That was a 15 rounder remember, so pacing was crucial and Witherpsoon showed his toughness and experience. It was a good challenge by Bruno but he wasn't good enough on the night.

[GPTM1403]

Watching this one and the Tyson fight again showed a few things that Bruno doesn't get credit for but also showed how he didn't really develop. (Firstly I don't think Witherspoon was in that bad a shape). Against TW Bruno worked the body, something he never really developed before or after but did a lot in this fight. He also threw proper combinations. He was throwing a variety of punches, varying to body and head and letting his hands go. He seemed to have lost all that by the first Tyson fight. I do wonder if the stamina issues (that were definitely there) meant they changed him or never fully developed him in order to conserve energy. The other thing that is noticeable in this fight is Witherspoon was landing a lot right from the start - it wasn't just a case of outlasting.

[revporl]

Bruno seemed to run on nervous energy that left him really drained and vulnerable later in fights. Def the case here, same with Smith and Lewis fight too, he falls apart at the end of the McCall fight too, even though he won that one.

[vidal]

11 rounds of pretty fierce boxing. I don't see the fitness issues and it's been proven time and time again that physical appearance proves nothing in the HW division.

I think Bruno was pretty much at his peak in this fight. I've heard it said a few times that he lacked aggression and spite in the ring and I think that was a good example of a time when a bit more aggression would have done the job early doors.

After this fight, he seemed to get more and more mechanical and I put this down to excessive muscle mass. I just think he bulked up too much.

[GPTM1403]

11 rounds of pretty fierce boxing. I don't see the fitness issues and it's been proven time and time again that physical appearance proves nothing in the HW division.

I think Bruno was pretty much at his peak in this fight. I've heard it said a few times that he lacked aggression and spite in the ring and I think that was a good example of a time when a bit more aggression would have done the job early doors.

After this fight, he seemed to get more and more mechanical and I put this down to excessive muscle mass. I just think he bulked up too much.

I do think the performances against Witherspoon, Tyson and Lewis would have beaten a reasonable number of top heavyweights from that 10 year period. I think they also disproved the myth he was chinny. How many other fighters took the number of clean shots from Tyson that Bruno did (throughout 5 rounds)? I always got the impression that the stamina issue was once you got into double figures for the rounds. With Lewis and Tyson I'm not sure you can argue stamina so much as he faced two elite heavyweights who were landing shots throughout, in the case of Tyson it was volume with Lewis it was the left hook followed by a battering.

[banjo]

I don't think Bruno's loss to Lewis was stamina related, he got caught with a big punch which separated him from his senses and Lewis just went in for the kill.

[Muttley]

Lloyd Honeyghan fell out with Bruno over this because everything was set up for a Bruno world title win; a champion who barely trained, a champion with no motivation, a champion away from home... Big Frank failed to take his chance while a month later Honeyghan went to the States and deposed the unbeaten Don Curry in six barnstorming rounds.
As for Witherspoon, he lost to Bonecrusher Smith within a round next time out.

Colin Hart from The Sun picked Bruno in 7 due to Witherspoon turning up looking like a tub of lard,even that version of the Spoon was too good for Frank.I went to that fight at the old Wembley Stadium and remember the torrent of piss running out of the bogs which was ankle deep.

ha ha, I was there as well. Right up in the gods with a set of Binoculars. It was a great night but I ended up walking halfway home because it finished so late in the early hours.

[Muttley]

I thought I would catch the Smith-Witherspoon world heavyweight title fight (cough, cough). Smith has Witherspoon going with his very first punch, after which it descends into a wild-swinging embarrassment. How the hell did Bruno lose to those two!

Harsh for you Bennie, Witherspoon had almost beat Holmes, and Smith went on to give Holmes problems.
I've never brought into the thrown fight by Witherspoon, if he'd beaten Smith then it would of been a Tyson payday

Do you honestly think Tim would have got a decent payday against Tyson? you only have to go back to the Bruno fight to work that out

[Twinkle Toes]

I'd say it's a fair shout to say this was peak Bruno, even so he was still behind on points at the stoppage. This fight was set up for him to deliver the win and he fell a long way short.

It's odd how Bruno completely went to pieces when he was in trouble. Watching him out on his feet against Jumbo Cummings was a warning of what was to come.

The McCall fight was terrible, Bruno had bulked up that much weight by then and man handled his way to victory over a very poor McCall and a very lenient ref. He was clinging on for dear life in the last round and needed a good 5 minutes after the fight had ended before he could speak (he was that drained)

[GPTM1403]

I think with the McCall fight you do have to allow for him knowing he just had to stay upright for the last round to be world champion, I suspect tactically and due to mental exhaustion (on top of physical exhaustion) that explains the last round.

I don't know if I'd say Witherspoon was set up for him to win. TW was one of the best around, when mentally and physically interested. At that time Bruno may have stood more chance against Berbick.

[Old bones Ian]

Harsh for you Bennie, Witherspoon had almost beat Holmes, and Smith went on to give Holmes problems.
I've never brought into the thrown fight by Witherspoon, if he'd beaten Smith then it would of been a Tyson payday

Do you honestly think Tim would have got a decent payday against Tyson? you only have to go back to the Bruno fight to work that out

I'd have more belief in the 'thrown' Smith fight, if Witherspoon went on after to produce devastating boxing displays, but he didn't, he boxed average at best and was out of shape time and again.

With or without Don King, Witherspoon didn't take advantage of his natural skills.