Sugar Ray Leonard versus James Toney
Posted: 28 Dec 2020, 16:01
12 rounds- 160 lbs.
Leonard beat Hagler at Middleweight. The Leonard that beat Hagler could beat James Toney. Toney wasn't at his best at 160. He was too drained to get the most out of his body.elmersalsa wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 13:32 There is no way that Sugar Ray at 160lbs beats a guy like James "Lights Out" Toney. Toney was too talented. I guess many of us forgot that. This is not welterweight. It is middleweight.
Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That Marvelous wouldn't beat Toney in no time.gilgamesh wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 19:53Leonard beat Hagler at Middleweight. The Leonard that beat Hagler could beat James Toney. Toney wasn't at his best at 160. He was too drained to get the most out of his body.elmersalsa wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 13:32 There is no way that Sugar Ray at 160lbs beats a guy like James "Lights Out" Toney. Toney was too talented. I guess many of us forgot that. This is not welterweight. It is middleweight.
Say what? Inconsistent?Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 22:37 Toney was too inconsistent to beat someone as talented as srl
Leonard was coming off a 5 year retirement. You think he was at his best for the Hagler fight? Who has ever come off of a 5 year retirement better than ever?elmersalsa wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 22:54Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That Marvelous wouldn't beat Toney in no time.gilgamesh wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 19:53Leonard beat Hagler at Middleweight. The Leonard that beat Hagler could beat James Toney. Toney wasn't at his best at 160. He was too drained to get the most out of his body.elmersalsa wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 13:32 There is no way that Sugar Ray at 160lbs beats a guy like James "Lights Out" Toney. Toney was too talented. I guess many of us forgot that. This is not welterweight. It is middleweight.
Put the Toney that magnificently fought the great Mike McCallum in a fighter of masters and he beats both of them, twice on Sunday.
It is kinda a shame that he retired right after this bout and we never got to know how good he really was. Like was it just a one night exceptional performance due to a combination of poor preparation by Toney and great preparation by Tiberi or was Tiberi really that good?
That's unrealistic. A bigger great fighter always beats most of the time the great little man. That is a rule in boxing, most of the time.gilgamesh wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 10:16Leonard was coming off a 5 year retirement. You think he was at his best for the Hagler fight? Who has ever come off of a 5 year retirement better than ever?elmersalsa wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 22:54Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That Marvelous wouldn't beat Toney in no time.
Put the Toney that magnificently fought the great Mike McCallum in a fighter of masters and he beats both of them, twice on Sunday.
Just Leonard apparently?
Dude Toney is one of my favorite all time fighters. Leonard is not, but Leonard beats him at 160. That's just real.
Right, but Toney was VERY drained at Middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight. He was killing himself to keep getting down to Middleweight.elmersalsa wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 11:33That's unrealistic. A bigger great fighter always beats most of the time the great little man. That is a rule in boxing, most of the time.gilgamesh wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 10:16Leonard was coming off a 5 year retirement. You think he was at his best for the Hagler fight? Who has ever come off of a 5 year retirement better than ever?elmersalsa wrote: ↑29 Dec 2020, 22:54
Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That Marvelous wouldn't beat Toney in no time.
Put the Toney that magnificently fought the great Mike McCallum in a fighter of masters and he beats both of them, twice on Sunday.
Just Leonard apparently?
Dude Toney is one of my favorite all time fighters. Leonard is not, but Leonard beats him at 160. That's just real.
So, you think the Sugar Ray that barely beat a FADING MARVELOUS beats the James Toney that drew with the great Mike McCallum? I know that you have seen that masterful fight.gilgamesh wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 11:36no boob inRight, but Toney was VERY drained at Middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight. He was killing himself to keep getting down to Middleweight.elmersalsa wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 11:33That's unrealistic. A bigger great fighter always beats most of the time the great little man. That is a rule in boxing, most of the time.gilgamesh wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 10:16
Leonard was coming off a 5 year retirement. You think he was at his best for the Hagler fight? Who has ever come off of a 5 year retirement better than ever?
Just Leonard apparently?
Dude Toney is one of my favorite all time fighters. Leonard is not, but Leonard beats him at 160. That's just real.
Some guys get better when they move up to a more natural weight where they're not draining themselves so much. Toney is one of them.
I already said what I think would happen. You're entitled to disagree with it.elmersalsa wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 15:46So, you think the Sugar Ray that barely beat a FADING MARVELOUS beats the James Toney that drew with the great Mike McCallum? I know that you have seen that masterful fight.gilgamesh wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 11:36no boob inRight, but Toney was VERY drained at Middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight. He was killing himself to keep getting down to Middleweight.elmersalsa wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 11:33
That's unrealistic. A bigger great fighter always beats most of the time the great little man. That is a rule in boxing, most of the time.
Some guys get better when they move up to a more natural weight where they're not draining themselves so much. Toney is one of them.
I can't see it. Sugar Ray above 147lbs was not that great. Do we have to see his fights above 147?
I asked you to review his fights after welterweight and you ducked it. Now, I hate Sugar Ray by being realistic. You want to put like others in here Leonard on a pedestal. In here, he could never lose even if you match him with King Kong.gilgamesh wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 15:51I already said what I think would happen. You're entitled to disagree with it.elmersalsa wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 15:46So, you think the Sugar Ray that barely beat a FADING MARVELOUS beats the James Toney that drew with the great Mike McCallum? I know that you have seen that masterful fight.gilgamesh wrote: ↑30 Dec 2020, 11:36no boob in
Right, but Toney was VERY drained at Middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight. He was killing himself to keep getting down to Middleweight.
Some guys get better when they move up to a more natural weight where they're not draining themselves so much. Toney is one of them.
I can't see it. Sugar Ray above 147lbs was not that great. Do we have to see his fights above 147?
I also know you hate Leonard, and sh*t on him at every turn so your opinion at least when it comes to Leonard is questionable at best.
James Toney is one of the greatest middleweights of all-time, what are you talking about?gilgamesh wrote: ↑31 Dec 2020, 11:39 I wouldn't say Ducked it, so much as I simply don't care to humor you with this because I know your mind is already made up when it comes to Ray Leonard so why waste my time?
I certainly don't think Leonard is unbeatable. Especially at Middleweight, we're not putting him up against the best Middleweight ever here. We're putting him up against James Toney who achieved greater things beyond Middleweight.
Toney might narrowly be one of the all time Top 20 or 25 Middleweights. Lots of guys more accomplished than him at the weight.elmersalsa wrote: ↑31 Dec 2020, 11:48James Toney is one of the greatest middleweights of all-time, what are you talking about?gilgamesh wrote: ↑31 Dec 2020, 11:39 I wouldn't say Ducked it, so much as I simply don't care to humor you with this because I know your mind is already made up when it comes to Ray Leonard so why waste my time?
I certainly don't think Leonard is unbeatable. Especially at Middleweight, we're not putting him up against the best Middleweight ever here. We're putting him up against James Toney who achieved greater things beyond Middleweight.
My mind made up about Sugar Ray? I know tge capabilities of Sugar Ray more than you ever would. I don't put him on a pedestal like you and others in this forum.
At welterweight, he was remarkable. The best welterweight of the last 50+ years in my opinion. But, above 147lbs, he was nothing but a comic book. And that's the whole truth.
He only had 7 fights in the last 15 years of his professional career and many in here wanna put him top 10 all-time when there are more deserving boxers?
6 of his 7 fights, to his standards, were mediocre. And he beats a prime Toney who was a much more complete fighter than he was? At 160lbs? Be realistic, man! Be realistic!
The Toney that beat Nunn whups Sugar Ray that beats Fading Marvelous. Twice on Sunday. Even Michael Nunn beats both of them (fading Marvelous and Sugar Ray) everyday of tge week and twice on Sunday.gilgamesh wrote: ↑31 Dec 2020, 11:53Toney might narrowly be one of the all time Top 20 or 25 Middleweights. Lots of guys more accomplished than him at the weight.elmersalsa wrote: ↑31 Dec 2020, 11:48James Toney is one of the greatest middleweights of all-time, what are you talking about?gilgamesh wrote: ↑31 Dec 2020, 11:39 I wouldn't say Ducked it, so much as I simply don't care to humor you with this because I know your mind is already made up when it comes to Ray Leonard so why waste my time?
I certainly don't think Leonard is unbeatable. Especially at Middleweight, we're not putting him up against the best Middleweight ever here. We're putting him up against James Toney who achieved greater things beyond Middleweight.
My mind made up about Sugar Ray? I know tge capabilities of Sugar Ray more than you ever would. I don't put him on a pedestal like you and others in this forum.
At welterweight, he was remarkable. The best welterweight of the last 50+ years in my opinion. But, above 147lbs, he was nothing but a comic book. And that's the whole truth.
He only had 7 fights in the last 15 years of his professional career and many in here wanna put him top 10 all-time when there are more deserving boxers?
6 of his 7 fights, to his standards, were mediocre. And he beats a prime Toney who was a much more complete fighter than he was? At 160lbs? Be realistic, man! Be realistic!
I'm being realistic. Leonard was a great fighter, and had all the skills necessary to defeat James Toney. If they fought at 168 Toney would win handily.
Or even if it wasn't the very best version of Leonard at 160 Toney would win, but assuming we're talking about the Leonard that beat Hagler, and the Toney that beat Nunn. I'd favor Leonard.
You're free to disagree with that if you want to.