Would Ali's greatness be diminished if:

[goose 5]

There were definitive proof that Sonny Liston threw both fights ? If so, by how much ?

[Onetimeonly]

No, Frazier and foreman are always the top 2 anyway.

[bwu]

Yes. There’s the domino effect. If those are definite fixes, all his other fights will be in question, fairly or unfairly.

In addition, as someone who rates Ali as the top heavy of all time, Liston I is a big part of that equation. For various reasons (including an odd personal anecdote), I believe Sonny went in the tank in the second fight. However, watching the fifth round in the first match will always lead to believe Liston tried to win that one.

If such evidence were ever brought to light, it would be enormous in my view.

[Tuan_Jim]

Liston was obviously trying to win the first fight. He was throwing death blows at an unknown quantity. The fight itself is all the evidence you need it was on the level.

The rematch has been considered murky since the night it happened, so clearly it hasn't diminished Ali's status.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

If he was throwing the first fight why did he try the ointment trick?

If he was throwing the 2nd fight why did he get up and continue fighting?

[JC]

Yes. There’s the domino effect. If those are definite fixes, all his other fights will be in question, fairly or unfairly.

I don't think it would. The Liston fights are suspect because of Liston and his connections, not Ali.

[gilgamesh]

Not really.

There is already definitive proof that Liston threw the 2nd fight in my mind. Just look at it. If you think that was a legit KO you're easy to fool.

I don't know if Ali was in on the fix, I doubt it, but Liston definitely took a dive for one reason or another. All kinds of speculation as to why.

I don't think he threw the 1st Ali fight, but he threw the 2nd one without question.

[gilgamesh]

If he was throwing the first fight why did he try the ointment trick?

If he was throwing the 2nd fight why did he get up and continue fighting?

Your thoughts on the 1st fight are accurate, and I share them.

He did throw the 2nd fight, that's why he almost got up and then fell over like a Dad playing with his Kids for no reason. He got up because he knew it had been well over 10 seconds, and he couldn't believe the goddamn referee hadn't counted to 10 by now.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

He never even got a count. That ended was a total clusterfuck thanks to walcott

That punch was a legit punch too right on the chin

I dont doubt he might have decided to quit then thought better of it. Weve seen fighters quit before like morales v pac 3

[Onetimeonly]

He never even got a count. That ended was a total clusterfuck thanks to walcott

That punch was a legit punch too right on the chin

I dont doubt he might have decided to quit then thought better of it. Weve seen fighters quit before like morales v pac 3

Spot on.

[BoxBuzz]

Anyone who has reviewed the film and understands the physics, KNOWS that the punch had some smoke on it.


However.....what was going on in Sonny's head was far more impactful. And it was not fixed....though I would concede Sonny may not have given his physical best. Not that it would have made a lot of difference, other than more entertaining airtime.

Many fights are ended for mental and psyche reasons.....perhaps nearly as important as those ending for physics. Does not make them "fixed". Many fights are won before the first punch is thrown. E.G. Tyson vs Spinks.

[Controversial]

Anyone who has reviewed the film and understands the physics, KNOWS that the punch had some smoke on it.


However.....what was going on in Sonny's head was far more impactful. And it was not fixed....though I would concede Sonny may not have given his physical best. Not that it would have made a lot of difference, other than more entertaining airtime.

Many fights are ended for mental and psyche reasons.....perhaps nearly as important as those ending for physics. Does not make them "fixed". Many fights are won before the first punch is thrown. E.G. Tyson vs Spinks.

Why are you so sure it wasn't fixed? A punch definitely landed that's for sure but for me I have my doubts that rolling and falling around was 100% legit

[oogiebe]

Anyone who has reviewed the film and understands the physics, KNOWS that the punch had some smoke on it.


However.....what was going on in Sonny's head was far more impactful. And it was not fixed....though I would concede Sonny may not have given his physical best. Not that it would have made a lot of difference, other than more entertaining airtime.

Many fights are ended for mental and psyche reasons.....perhaps nearly as important as those ending for physics. Does not make them "fixed". Many fights are won before the first punch is thrown. E.G. Tyson vs Spinks.

Why are you so sure it wasn't fixed? A punch definitely landed that's for sure but for me I have my doubts that rolling and falling around was 100% legit

Yeah, worse acting not seen until HBK vs Hulk Hogan. I don't think the fight was fixed, I think Sonny simply wanted out.

[Controversial]

Anyone who has reviewed the film and understands the physics, KNOWS that the punch had some smoke on it.


However.....what was going on in Sonny's head was far more impactful. And it was not fixed....though I would concede Sonny may not have given his physical best. Not that it would have made a lot of difference, other than more entertaining airtime.

Many fights are ended for mental and psyche reasons.....perhaps nearly as important as those ending for physics. Does not make them "fixed". Many fights are won before the first punch is thrown. E.G. Tyson vs Spinks.

Why are you so sure it wasn't fixed? A punch definitely landed that's for sure but for me I have my doubts that rolling and falling around was 100% legit

Yeah, worse acting not seen until HBK vs Hulk Hogan. I don't think the fight was fixed, I think Sonny simply wanted out.

And he decided that after 2 minutes? I think the whole thing stunk, can you imagine the odds bookmakers would've offered on Liston being knocked out in the 1st round. Ali never knocked anyone out with one punch, let alone someone like Liston, if Liston was out cold I'd think different but he looked like someone trying their best to look hurt and failing miserably.

[gilgamesh]

Anyone who has reviewed the film and understands the physics, KNOWS that the punch had some smoke on it.


However.....what was going on in Sonny's head was far more impactful. And it was not fixed....though I would concede Sonny may not have given his physical best. Not that it would have made a lot of difference, other than more entertaining airtime.

Many fights are ended for mental and psyche reasons.....perhaps nearly as important as those ending for physics. Does not make them "fixed". Many fights are won before the first punch is thrown. E.G. Tyson vs Spinks.

I knew you'd chime in with your "I'm a brain doctor" stuff

Apparently they don't teach you to recognize when someone falls over like a sh*tty actor in Medical school.

[gilgamesh]

Anyone who has reviewed the film and understands the physics, KNOWS that the punch had some smoke on it.


However.....what was going on in Sonny's head was far more impactful. And it was not fixed....though I would concede Sonny may not have given his physical best. Not that it would have made a lot of difference, other than more entertaining airtime.

Many fights are ended for mental and psyche reasons.....perhaps nearly as important as those ending for physics. Does not make them "fixed". Many fights are won before the first punch is thrown. E.G. Tyson vs Spinks.

Why are you so sure it wasn't fixed? A punch definitely landed that's for sure but for me I have my doubts that rolling and falling around was 100% legit

Yeah, worse acting not seen until HBK vs Hulk Hogan. I don't think the fight was fixed, I think Sonny simply wanted out.

There are all kinds of rumors as to why Sonny did what he did.

He was threatened by the Black Muslims.

He was afraid somebody would take a shot at him or Ali.

But I don't doubt he may have been cut a deal by one of his Mob connections to throw in the 1st, and get a cut for his work.

I don't think Ali was in on it because he's screaming at him to get up because he knew damn well Sonny could take more than that because he gave him worse than that in their 1st fight.

[gilgamesh]

Anyone who has reviewed the film and understands the physics, KNOWS that the punch had some smoke on it.


However.....what was going on in Sonny's head was far more impactful. And it was not fixed....though I would concede Sonny may not have given his physical best. Not that it would have made a lot of difference, other than more entertaining airtime.

Many fights are ended for mental and psyche reasons.....perhaps nearly as important as those ending for physics. Does not make them "fixed". Many fights are won before the first punch is thrown. E.G. Tyson vs Spinks.

Why are you so sure it wasn't fixed? A punch definitely landed that's for sure but for me I have my doubts that rolling and falling around was 100% legit

It was so obviously fake a child can see through it.

[margaret thatcher]

If he was throwing the first fight why did he try the ointment trick?

If he was throwing the 2nd fight why did he get up and continue fighting?

does anyone really ever say he threw the first fight? i can see why they'd suspect the second though, reminds me of those guys waiting to count themselves out

now of course the op's question is assuming that we actually knew both were thrown

what do you bruhs say? not were they both thrown, but if we knew both were, so esentially erasing the liston wins

obviously, ali still had other great wins so would still be an atg,

[gilgamesh]

If he was throwing the first fight why did he try the ointment trick?

If he was throwing the 2nd fight why did he get up and continue fighting?

does anyone really ever say he threw the first fight? i can see why they'd suspect the second though, reminds me of those guys waiting to count themselves out

now of course the op's question is assuming that we actually knew both were thrown

what do you bruhs say? not were they both thrown, but if we knew both were, so esentially erasing the liston wins

obviously, ali still had other great wins so would still be an atg,

I definitely don't think Liston "threw" the 1st fight. I do think after his putting a substance on his gloves to blind Ali trick failed then he just gave up, but that's not the same as throwing the fight. He basically knew he couldn't beat him, and when he couldn't even beat him after a dirty trick that should've left him extremely vulnerable he just packed it in.

[gilgamesh]

If he was throwing the first fight why did he try the ointment trick?

If he was throwing the 2nd fight why did he get up and continue fighting?

does anyone really ever say he threw the first fight? i can see why they'd suspect the second though, reminds me of those guys waiting to count themselves out

now of course the op's question is assuming that we actually knew both were thrown

what do you bruhs say? not were they both thrown, but if we knew both were, so esentially erasing the liston wins

obviously, ali still had other great wins so would still be an atg,

Even without the Liston wins Ali is still the #1 Heavyweight of all time IMO. I already have an asterix next to the Liston rematch.

[margaret thatcher]

ya i agree, he was obviously trying hard to win

but if it was thrown?

[gilgamesh]

ya i agree, he was obviously trying hard to win

but if it was thrown?

Why would he try to blind the guy if he was throwing the fight?

It wasn't thrown.

[oogiebe]

Why are you so sure it wasn't fixed? A punch definitely landed that's for sure but for me I have my doubts that rolling and falling around was 100% legit

Yeah, worse acting not seen until HBK vs Hulk Hogan. I don't think the fight was fixed, I think Sonny simply wanted out.

And he decided that after 2 minutes? I think the whole thing stunk, can you imagine the odds bookmakers would've offered on Liston being knocked out in the 1st round. Ali never knocked anyone out with one punch, let alone someone like Liston, if Liston was out cold I'd think different but he looked like someone trying their best to look hurt and failing miserably.

No he decided that in the days and maybe weeks before. Ali's KO power or lack of it has nothing to do with Liston going down to escape his demons.

[gilgamesh]

Yeah, worse acting not seen until HBK vs Hulk Hogan. I don't think the fight was fixed, I think Sonny simply wanted out.

And he decided that after 2 minutes? I think the whole thing stunk, can you imagine the odds bookmakers would've offered on Liston being knocked out in the 1st round. Ali never knocked anyone out with one punch, let alone someone like Liston, if Liston was out cold I'd think different but he looked like someone trying their best to look hurt and failing miserably.

No he decided that in the days and maybe weeks before. Ali's KO power or lack of it has nothing to do with Liston going down to escape his demons.

Demons? Or somebody waiting to take a shot at him

[oogiebe]

And he decided that after 2 minutes? I think the whole thing stunk, can you imagine the odds bookmakers would've offered on Liston being knocked out in the 1st round. Ali never knocked anyone out with one punch, let alone someone like Liston, if Liston was out cold I'd think different but he looked like someone trying their best to look hurt and failing miserably.

No he decided that in the days and maybe weeks before. Ali's KO power or lack of it has nothing to do with Liston going down to escape his demons.

Demons? Or somebody waiting to take a shot at him

Whatever his 'demons' were. I'm saying he himself wanted out, one way or another. I don't think anyone else had anything DIRECTLY to do with it. Folks said Liston was in tremendous shape for the fight. By fight time, he just needed to escape and he did.