Harry Greb question

[goose 5]

Was Greb ever accused of ducking any fighters ?

[DrDuke]

He definitely ducked Luis Ortiz.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't think so.

Mind you every once in a great while fighters will claim that they are being avoided but it's mostly garbage to try to get attention. I'm sure one or two people over time tried to say that of Greb, but I'm pretty sure nobody bought it.

From 160 to 200+ pounds there are very few men I can think of that Greb didn't fight in actual contests or exhibitions.

According to the record, and most of these individuals he fought more than once:

Tiger Flowers, Jimmy Delaney, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker*, Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Jimmy Slattery, Ted Moore, Kid Norfolk, Johnny Wilson, Bryan Downey, Bob Roper, Tommy Gibbons, Chuck Wiggins, Bob Moha, Gunboat Smith, Zulu Kid, Mike McTigue, Battling Levinsky, Bill Brennan, Mike Gibbons, Willie Meehan, Billy Miske, Jack Dillon, Al McCoy, George Chip, and Jack Blackburn.

If anything at all it was the reverse proposition that people avoided him. Never forget that this man pursued a heavyweight title match with Jack Dempsey, and the heavyweight champion of the world basically refused to do it after having a few exhibitions with Greb.

It would have been neat to have seen him go up against the likes of Langford, Georges Carpentier, Battling Siki, etc--- but for the most part he didn't need to have those fights because he basically was a top contender in three different weight classes.

*Greb would fight anyone, anywhere, for nothing. When he beat Walker later on that night the Toy Bulldog challenged him to a bare knuckle rematch in the street and Greb obliged him and knocked him out.

[klompton]

When he beat Walker later on that night the Toy Bulldog challenged him to a bare knuckle rematch in the street and Greb obliged him and knocked him out.

That never happened.

[HomicideHenry]

When he beat Walker later on that night the Toy Bulldog challenged him to a bare knuckle rematch in the street and Greb obliged him and knocked him out.

That never happened.

https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-news/j ... one/121964

If it didn't happen it's quite funny that major boxing websites as late as 2019 were still talking about it.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ever heard of a myth?

Major websites have things on it all the time that aren't accurate.

[HomicideHenry]

Ever heard of a myth?

Major websites have things on it all the time that aren't accurate.

It's possible that it is a myth but it wasn't really that uncommon for boxers to get into street fight altercations back then. There was reports that it went down practically to the date in question.

The only time I ever seen a myth get busted by anyone on this forum was the collective effort of many people to prove that the alleged Jack Dempsey fight with Jack Johnson never happened but was a mistake made by the Brooklyn Eagle assuming a Chicago newspaper was recounting a fight when all it was doing was dreaming up a hypothetical matchup.

Anyways if people are that insistent that it didn't happen then provide the links or the sources that it didn't. I may very well be wrong, we all are wrong from time to time, and if I am wrong I don't want to repeat a fictitious story.

[klompton]

It never happened. If you want to believe it then believe it. Ignorance is bliss. Plenty of boxing myths have been burst. Papke punched Ketchel on the handshake: fake. Pep won a round without throwing a punch: fake. The police stopped the cameras to prevent white audiences seeing Jack Johnson knock out Tommy Burns: fake. Wilfred Benitez only trained a week for Leonard: fake. Ali was given extra time against Cooper so they could change his torn glove: fake. I could continue but all of these things get continually repeated to this day. The Greb-Walker street fight story originated with Mickey Walker about a decade after it supposedly happened. Prior to that there was never any mention by anyone of it. After Walker initially told that story the people who had been with Greb that night refuted it (Greb couldnt because he was long dead otherwise Walker likely would have gotten another ass kicking). They all agreed that they didnt see Walker that night. The only person they ran into was Jimmy Slattery who had lost that night and they tried to console him. Walker for his part was immediately taken to Polyclinic hospital after the fight to have his various cuts stitched up and then returned to his hotel room where his sparring partners spent all night taking turns applying ice packs to him. Walker initially made that story of the street fight up to save face as his original version had him winning after having gotten beaten in the boxing match. Over the years he changed the street fight story numerous times. The location changed, witnesses changed, sometimes he won and sometimes he lost. And who could believe such a stupid story anyway? Walker had just gotten his ass kicked royally in a fight against a bigger, stronger, faster guy in a fight with rules and referee. He was so exhausted and spent and damaged that immediately after the fight he buried his face in his towel and wept. BUT, he suddenly comes back several hours later after being patched up in a hospital to defeat his rival in a fight without rules or anyone there to pull Greb off of him? Only the loser of that fight would have the guts to tell that whopper and only fans of high fiction would buy it.

[HomicideHenry]

I'll take your word for it. One of those stories I will hate not being able to tell again because I don't like to tell tall tales. I honestly thought it really did occur.

As for Johnson/Burns, was it simply a matter of them running out of film or was it purposely cut out of the film (the stoppage)?

[klompton]

As for Johnson/Burns, was it simply a matter of them running out of film or was it purposely cut out of the film (the stoppage)?

No the ending was filmed and shown all over the world. Jim Jacobs started that story. When he rediscovered the film of Johnson-Burns he only discovered one reel, the reel that showed rounds 6-10. Since he didnt have a beginning or an ending to the film he edited it to give it a narrative flow and since he didnt have the stoppage he invented the story that the film was stopped. The first time that film was shown on television was when Jim made an appearance on CBS Sports Spectacular and showed clips from some of his collection. He had only recently found that film and hadnt edited it into the program "Greatest Fights of the Century" yet. When he showed the film he stopped it at a completely different place (also not the end of the fight). It wasnt until he put together the Greatest Fights of the Century version that he stopped the film at a scene where it looks like Burns is going down and then said that the police stopped the cameras to prevent white audiences from seeing a black man stop a white man. In reality the scene in question came from the 7th round (I have a copy of the unedited, uncut reel that Jacobs used to create his program with the original intertitles intact) and Burns, despite looking like he was going down in that one frame that Jacobs froze on, manages to stay upright under Johnson's pounding and survive to the end of the round. Its ridiculous to think the police would have stopped the film to begin with. Hugh McIntosh had gone to great expense to film the fight which was well known before hand and the police would have had no justification for stopping the film. Furthermore, the men filming the fight were perched on a tower that hovered twenty feet above the crowd. No constable could have seen that Burns' stoppage was imminent, then clambered up the ladder to the platform and stopped the cameras in time to miss the ending. Finally, its not difficult at all to find first hand newspaper reports of the films release all over the world which discuss the scenes filmed in detail including the stoppage and scenes in the ring after the fight. Handbills for the film which were distributed in Britain that still exist state: "THE COMPLETE FILM, SHOWING EVERY INCIDENT OF EACH EVENT NOTED ABOVE..." Above this notation it gives a detailed recitation of each scene shown in the film and one of those notes is: "40. 14th round and last. The police interfere. Johnson knocks Burns down and he takes the count. Burns dazed now. He is spitting blood, it is oozing out of his mouth. Observe Burns' condition as he goes back. Johnson declared the winner. Johnson shakes hands with Burns. 41. Paying over the stakes in the ring. Johnson receives his 1,100 pounds. Kelly, Burns' manager, receives his 6,000 pounds on behalf of Burns. Finis." The problem with all of these stories is that people just repeat them without ever checking their veracity or even questioning it.

[HomicideHenry]

I would love to see the full film because all I ever have seen was the fight in snippets with the action suddenly stopping and narrators claiming that the cameras were forced to stop.

That's insanely unethical of Jim Jacobs to have done that. I wonder how many other fight films he manipulated over time.

[Caractacus]

Harry Greb ducked no one.
The question itself is "Insane".

[klompton]

That's insanely unethical of Jim Jacobs to have done that. I wonder how many other fight films he manipulated over time.

A lot but in his defense it was being done long before him. The IBC films from the 1950s and Mike Jacobs' films from the 1930s and 40s often have rounds listed incorrectly. So its not uncommon to watch one of those old films and have a round listed as "10" and its actually "4". Jacob creating that story was the worst case Ive ever seen though, not so much because of his editing the film but because of the false narrative he created around it. Essentially he accused a lot of people involved in that fight/film of an overtly racist act that was a complete fabrication and its echoed through decades.

[goose 5]

I posted the Greb question because I've been reading old newspaper articles and came across an assertion by Panama Joe Gans that Greb refused to fight him. I'm not saying I believe it but it made me curious if anyone here ever read any other such claims.

[HomicideHenry]

I posted the Greb question because I've been reading old newspaper articles and came across an assertion by Panama Joe Gans that Greb refused to fight him. I'm not saying I believe it but it made me curious if anyone here ever read any other such claims.

Greb fought Joe Gans, though. Beat him too.

https://www.nytimes.com/1926/06/16/arch ... -gans.html

I will have to look through the records to see how many times the two men actually fought. Greb usually fought these guys more than once.

Nope just checked they only fought the one time. I think the reason why Gans might've said the comment was because they were both gunning for Tiger Flowers. To make himself look better he probably insisted that Greb had been ducking him for years, but when they finally met Gans only managed to win one round out of the scheduled ten.

[goose 5]

It was not Panama Joe Gans who fought Greb. Allentown Joe Gans fought Greb.

[klompton]

In December 1919 in Syracuse New York Greb had been scheduled to fight light heavyweight Clay Turner. The day before the fight Greb was told that Turner had injured his knee and was being replaced with heavyweight Bartley Madden. Greb was not happy about the situation but decided to go through with it because Jack Kearns had been floating the idea of having Dempsey defend against Madden. Beating Madden while he was being talked of as a potential Dempsey opponent would be good press for Greb's quest to get a fight with Dempsey. Just before the fight Greb was notified that Madden hadnt arrived in Syracuse and that instead Greb would be facing Panama Joe Gans. 1919 had seen the worst wave of racial violence in years. The race riots across the United States were so bad that it was called the "Red Summer". During this time Greb had promised his wife he wouldnt fight an African American fighter. This combined with the numerous switches in opponent prompted Greb to pull out of the match. Some have tried to paint this as Greb being afraid of Gans or ducking him but Gans was largely unknown at the time. His only fight of note had been an 8 round fight with Jeff Smith (who Greb had beaten numerous times) the outcome of which was disputed. Greb would prove that it wasnt race or fear that prompted him to avoid Gans two years later when he fought Gans' stablemate Kid Norfolk who was 30 pounds heavier than Gans and more highly regarded. Incidentally, a year earlier a very similar situation took place in Ohio where Greb was scheduled to face an opponent and three times the opponent was changed right up to the last minute of the fight. Finally Greb threw up his hands and walked away. He had little patience for such situations to begin with regardless of the racial climate of 1919.

[goose 5]

Were Greb and Gans actually in the ring when Greb pulled out ? Also, is it true that Greb called Gans the "N" word in the ring and that the crowd were infuriated with Greb for not fighting ?

[klompton]

Were Greb and Gans actually in the ring when Greb pulled out ? Also, is it true that Greb called Gans the "N" word in the ring and that the crowd were infuriated with Greb for not fighting ?

Greb wasnt notified that his opponent was switched for the second time until Gans was already in the ring. He and his manager went to the ring, dressed in street clothes, where his manager notified the audience that he would not be fighting. The crowd got angry, booed him, called him yellow, etc. He tried to speak to the crowd to explain the situation but it did no good. At one point, according to one paper, he used the n word to which Gans took exception and Greb apologized. The crowd was angry that they werent getting a main event (really no fault of Greb's) and eventually stormed out. Greb, later that evening, explained to the press and promoters the promise he had made to his wife. This seems to be the real sticking point because Greb offered to fight any other white fighter regardless of weight but none could be found and he showed both before 1919 and after that he was willing to face African American fighters who were both more highly regarded than Gans and bigger. Nevermind the fact that he fought and defeated men who had beaten Gans both before and after this incident. Gans only beat two fighters who defeated Greb: 1. Joe Borrell, seven years after Borrell had beaten Greb. By the time Gans got to him Borrell was shot to pieces. 2. Tiger Flowers, who was green at that point. Flowers lost twice to Gans in 1921 before Flowers had 25 fights under his belt. In 1923 when he was more seasoned Flowers dominated Gans. A year after dominating Gans Flowers, in his prime, lost to Greb in Ohio when Greb was already on the downside of his career. I see no real reason to hold it against Greb. It only looks odd in the context of a career spent fighting everyone at every weight. One can make something of his use of the n word but Greb wasnt a racist. He was a great fan and supporter of Harry Wills, gave Flowers all the credit in the world in 1924 after beating him, was good friends with Kid Crutchfield who he helped get a job at city hall and who he kept a photo of in his scrapbook. Unfortunately that word was just more used and more accepted at the time and he was likely trying to play to the crowd and misjudged his audience. Not that that makes its use forgivable but just trying to give it some context.

[goose 5]

Do you believe that Greb really mentioned drawing the color line after the first Flowers bout or was that a manufactured quote ?

[klompton]

Do you believe that Greb really mentioned drawing the color line after the first Flowers bout or was that a manufactured quote ?

He said it but he meant it as more of a compliment than a literal statement. He proved that much. He could have ducked Flowers and some expected him to but as soon as the NYSAC dictated that he had to defend against Flowers he was literally on the nect train to New York so sign the contract. Contrast that with Dempsey who engineered several scams to avoid Wills or put off the possibility of defending against him and you can see Greb had options he simply chose not to exercise them and defended against Flowers. When he lost he had a contract for an immediate rematch and it was Flowers who did everything he could to avoid the rematch before finally being forced into the rubber match by the NYSAC.

[goose 5]

Thanks for the info-great stuff !

[Caractacus]

where is the proof ?

[klompton]

where is the proof ?

The proof of what?

[Caractacus]

The proof of "The Politics of Dancing" of course
( btw I dont think that there was any truth to the rumour back then (1983)that Gerrie Coetzee had briefly contemplated a career as a DJ after his loss to Mike Weaver)