Jermall Charlo vs. Maciej Sulecki | Showtime - Who wins?

[Ruthless-RKO]

PBC and Showtime announce spring schedule: Spence-Ugas, Davis-Romero, Charlo-Castano 2, more

Will take place in Houston.

[gilgamesh]

Will be rooting hard for Sulecki here.

[maverick23]

So Jermall in 3 and a half years goes Brandon Adams, Dennis Hogan, Dereyanchenko (who hasn’t actually won a big fight), Montiel and now Sulecki.

That sucks for a fighter of his ability. He needs to demand more from himself and his team as these kind of fights won’t make him a star.

[Enlightened-One]

Within the last 4½ years, Maciej Sulecki has managed to only defeat four middleweight journeymen that had failed to win a combined total of 48 bouts.

Whilst I appreciate the fact that Showtime were originally hoping to pit Jermall Charlo against Jaime Munguia, they should have orchestrated a better replacement opponent, since they surely would have understood that cross-promotional cross-network bouts between GBP-DAZN and PBC-Showtime are incredibly challenging to make.

Anyway, in terms of Jermall Charlo, as per his fellow top-five world-rated 160lb-ers (such as Golovkin, Murata and Andrade), he hasn’t really done much within the last 3½ years (other than his victory over Derevyanchenko).

In my humble opinion, the middleweight division has become incredibly weak, because all the biggest names have become risk averse, patiently hoping to receive a Canelo mega payday.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Within the last 4½ years, Maciej Sulecki has managed to only defeat four middleweight journeymen that had failed to win a combined total of 48 bouts.

Whilst I appreciate the fact that Showtime were originally hoping to pit Jermall Charlo against Jaime Munguia, they should have orchestrated a better replacement opponent, since they surely would have understood that cross-promotional cross-network bouts between GBP-DAZN and PBC-Showtime are incredibly challenging to make.

Anyway, in terms of Jermall Charlo, as per his fellow top-five world-rated 160lb-ers (such as Golovkin, Murata and Andrade), he hasn’t really done much within the last 3½ years (other than his victory over Derevyanchenko).

In my humble opinion, the middleweight division has become incredibly weak, because all the biggest names have become risk averse, patiently hoping to receive a Canelo mega payday.

They probably already had Sulecki waiting there incase the Munguia talks were scrapped.

It seems like DAZN were really pushing it.

Showtime wanted it on PPV though..

It's NOT a PPV fight, but I guess that's to help pay the purses..

[Enlightened-One]

Within the last 4½ years, Maciej Sulecki has managed to only defeat four middleweight journeymen that had failed to win a combined total of 48 bouts.

Whilst I appreciate the fact that Showtime were originally hoping to pit Jermall Charlo against Jaime Munguia, they should have orchestrated a better replacement opponent, since they surely would have understood that cross-promotional cross-network bouts between GBP-DAZN and PBC-Showtime are incredibly challenging to make.

Anyway, in terms of Jermall Charlo, as per his fellow top-five world-rated 160lb-ers (such as Golovkin, Murata and Andrade), he hasn’t really done much within the last 3½ years (other than his victory over Derevyanchenko).

In my humble opinion, the middleweight division has become incredibly weak, because all the biggest names have become risk averse, patiently hoping to receive a Canelo mega payday.

They probably already had Sulecki waiting there incase the Munguia talks were scrapped.

It seems like DAZN were really pushing it.

Showtime wanted it on PPV though..

It's NOT a PPV fight, but I guess that's to help pay the purses..

Showtime initiated the offer/negotiations. And GBP said a deal couldn't be finalised without involving DAZN (despite the financial terms for both fighters having already been agreed).

The PBC offered GBP the TV rights in Mexico and the UK, but GBP didn't respond.

And in terms of Charlo-Munguia, for sure it's not a fantastic PPV, but it's much better than the majority that the PBC have been covering recently.

[margaret thatcher]

another meh for mall

[maverick23]

Within the last 4½ years, Maciej Sulecki has managed to only defeat four middleweight journeymen that had failed to win a combined total of 48 bouts.

Whilst I appreciate the fact that Showtime were originally hoping to pit Jermall Charlo against Jaime Munguia, they should have orchestrated a better replacement opponent, since they surely would have understood that cross-promotional cross-network bouts between GBP-DAZN and PBC-Showtime are incredibly challenging to make.

Anyway, in terms of Jermall Charlo, as per his fellow top-five world-rated 160lb-ers (such as Golovkin, Murata and Andrade), he hasn’t really done much within the last 3½ years (other than his victory over Derevyanchenko).

In my humble opinion, the middleweight division has become incredibly weak, because all the biggest names have become risk averse, patiently hoping to receive a Canelo mega payday.

They probably already had Sulecki waiting there incase the Munguia talks were scrapped.

It seems like DAZN were really pushing it.

Showtime wanted it on PPV though..

It's NOT a PPV fight, but I guess that's to help pay the purses..

Showtime initiated the offer/negotiations. And GBP said a deal couldn't be finalised without involving DAZN (despite the financial terms for both fighters having already been agreed).

The PBC offered GBP the TV rights in Mexico and the UK, but GBP didn't respond.

And in terms of Charlo-Munguia, for sure it's not a fantastic PPV, but it's much better than the majority that the PBC have been covering recently.

So rather than work in conjunction with another platform and make a really good fight (Munguia/Charlo), Showtime/PBC instead decide to make Charlo/Sulecki.

[Enlightened-One]

They probably already had Sulecki waiting there incase the Munguia talks were scrapped.

It seems like DAZN were really pushing it.

Showtime wanted it on PPV though..

It's NOT a PPV fight, but I guess that's to help pay the purses..

Showtime initiated the offer/negotiations. And GBP said a deal couldn't be finalised without involving DAZN (despite the financial terms for both fighters having already been agreed).

The PBC offered GBP the TV rights in Mexico and the UK, but GBP didn't respond.

And in terms of Charlo-Munguia, for sure it's not a fantastic PPV, but it's much better than the majority that the PBC have been covering recently.

So rather than work in conjunction with another platform and make a really good fight (Munguia/Charlo), Showtime/PBC instead decide to make Charlo/Sulecki.

Kind of.

It’s all about the size of their slice of the pie, rather than the size of the pie itself.

If Showtime have to cut the pie in half to satisfy DAZN, then it’s not worth them staging such an event if they’re only receiving tiny slither of a slice.

[maverick23]

Showtime initiated the offer/negotiations. And GBP said a deal couldn't be finalised without involving DAZN (despite the financial terms for both fighters having already been agreed).

The PBC offered GBP the TV rights in Mexico and the UK, but GBP didn't respond.

And in terms of Charlo-Munguia, for sure it's not a fantastic PPV, but it's much better than the majority that the PBC have been covering recently.

So rather than work in conjunction with another platform and make a really good fight (Munguia/Charlo), Showtime/PBC instead decide to make Charlo/Sulecki.

Kind of.

It’s all about the size of their slice of the pie, rather than the size of the pie itself.

If Showtime have to cut the pie in half to satisfy DAZN, then staging such an event is probably not commercially viable if they’re only receiving slither of a slice.

You say a slither of a slice. In reality they’d probably receive the majority of the pie as, depending on how it would work, more people would likely watch on Showtime than DAZN.

Anyway, Showtime/PBC have shown that they’d rather make an awful fight (in Charlo’s first fight in 12 months) than have a really good fight across 2 different platforms. What a shame.

[Enlightened-One]

So rather than work in conjunction with another platform and make a really good fight (Munguia/Charlo), Showtime/PBC instead decide to make Charlo/Sulecki.

Kind of.

It’s all about the size of their slice of the pie, rather than the size of the pie itself.

If Showtime have to cut the pie in half to satisfy DAZN, then staging such an event is probably not commercially viable if they’re only receiving slither of a slice.

Anyway, Showtime/PBC have shown that they’d rather make an awful fight (in Charlo’s first fight in 12 months) than have a really good fight across 2 different platforms. What a shame.

Yes, I agree.

But you can also say that DAZN would rather not make a fight at all if all their demands aren’t met.

Munguia has rejected two opportunities, within the last week or so, to face top-ten world-rated 160lb-ers.

So you can’t accuse Showtime of committing wrongdoing, without targeting the same criticism at DAZN too.

[maverick23]

Kind of.

It’s all about the size of their slice of the pie, rather than the size of the pie itself.

If Showtime have to cut the pie in half to satisfy DAZN, then staging such an event is probably not commercially viable if they’re only receiving slither of a slice.

Anyway, Showtime/PBC have shown that they’d rather make an awful fight (in Charlo’s first fight in 12 months) than have a really good fight across 2 different platforms. What a shame.

Yes, I agree.

But you can also say that DAZN would rather not make a fight at all if all their demands aren’t met.

Munguia has rejected two opportunities, within the last week or so, to face top-ten world-rated 160lb-ers.

So you can’t accuse Showtime of committing wrongdoing, without targeting the same criticism at DAZN too.

DAZN aren’t without fault but they were willing to work with Showtime to make a good fight. Showtime/PBC weren’t willing to do the same. Instead they have made another dud fight for Jermall who is wasting the prime years of his career.

[Enlightened-One]

Anyway, Showtime/PBC have shown that they’d rather make an awful fight (in Charlo’s first fight in 12 months) than have a really good fight across 2 different platforms. What a shame.

Yes, I agree.

But you can also say that DAZN would rather not make a fight at all if all their demands aren’t met.

Munguia has rejected two opportunities, within the last week or so, to face top-ten world-rated 160lb-ers.

So you can’t accuse Showtime of committing wrongdoing, without targeting the same criticism at DAZN too.

DAZN aren’t without fault but they were willing to work with Showtime to make a good fight. Showtime/PBC weren’t willing to do the same. Instead they have made another dud fight for Jermall who is wasting the prime years of his career.

Like I said before, Showtime offered all the TV rights for Mexico and the UK to DAZN.

DAZN has a huge presence in those territories, but not in the US.

Showtime doesn’t have a presence in Mexico and the UK.

But DAZN walked away from the Charlo-Munguia bout, because they weren’t offered the US also.

I guess what I’m saying is this… Showtime offered the bout to GBP and DAZN, but DAZN wanted everything on their terms (to split everything in all territories).

Therefore, DAZN and Showtime are both to blame.

Let’s not forget that Charlo is the commercial A-side.

And how often should we expect the A-side possessing a world title to share everything on a 50-50 basis?

[maverick23]

Yes, I agree.

But you can also say that DAZN would rather not make a fight at all if all their demands aren’t met.

Munguia has rejected two opportunities, within the last week or so, to face top-ten world-rated 160lb-ers.

So you can’t accuse Showtime of committing wrongdoing, without targeting the same criticism at DAZN too.

DAZN aren’t without fault but they were willing to work with Showtime to make a good fight. Showtime/PBC weren’t willing to do the same. Instead they have made another dud fight for Jermall who is wasting the prime years of his career.

Like I said before, Showtime offered all the TV rights for Mexico and the UK to DAZN.

DAZN has a huge presence in those territories, but not in the US.

Showtime doesn’t have a presence in Mexico and the UK.

But DAZN walked away from the Charlo-Munguia bout, because they weren’t offered the US also.

I guess what I’m saying is this… Showtime offered the bout to GBP and DAZN, but DAZN wanted everything on their terms (to split everything in all territories).

Therefore, DAZN and Showtime are both to blame.

Let’s not forget that Charlo is the commercial A-side.

And how often should we expect the A-side possessing a world title to share everything on a 50-50 basis?

I didn’t see anything that said they were looking to share everything on a 50/50 basis. Where did you get that from? Just because a fight might be on 2 different TV platforms doesn’t mean the revenues are split 50/50.

DAZN doesn’t have a huge presence in the U.K. either - I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. It only has boxing in the U.K. and womens champions league soccer. Subscribers will be less than 100k and few will bother staying up late for Munguia/Charlo because neither are well known over here.

You say DAZN wanted everything on their terms. They wanted to co-broadcast in the US for themselves and to maximise the potential viewers for the fight. Showtime/PBC wanted them to be the only broadcaster in the US, so on their terms. They wouldn’t budge on that so have made another poor fight for Charlo.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Espinoza said they offered a two fight deal.

First fight Showtime and rematch DAZN.

[margaret thatcher]

espinoza must be proud of helping make great fights like charlo vs sulecki

[Enlightened-One]

I forgot to say, within the last month or so, Showtime tried to orchestrate bouts for Jermall Charlo to face Jaime Munguia and Canelo.

[maverick23]

I forgot to say, within the last month or so, Showtime tried to orchestrate bouts for Jermall Charlo to face Jaime Munguia and Canelo.

And he’s fighting Sulecki.

We had years of this in the U.K. from Warren with Calzaghe. Talking of big names/other champs and fighting neither. Specialising in unknown guys with pretty records or ex champs that were over the hill or guys that narrowly lost for a world title previously.

Showtime/PBC could have made the Munguia but didn’t want to. They could have also found someone better than Sulecki that isn’t Munguia/Canelo.

Charlo is broadly fighting once a year - they need better.

[handsofstone]

I forgot to say, within the last month or so, Showtime tried to orchestrate bouts for Jermall Charlo to face Jaime Munguia and Canelo.

I think Jermall was well in with a shout to get the Canelo fight, that could've went either way, although I'm not certain why both networks insisted on 2 fight deals, was that Canelo's demand?

As for Munguia wasn't it Oscar who scuppered that by wanting a cross network deal? Its hardly Lewis/Tyson or Mayweather/Pacquiao


I genuinely don't know specifics but it's clear Golden Boy only have Munguia, Vergil and Ry, all 3 being matched poorly clearly

[Enlightened-One]

I forgot to say, within the last month or so, Showtime tried to orchestrate bouts for Jermall Charlo to face Jaime Munguia and Canelo.

And he’s fighting Sulecki.

We had years of this in the U.K. from Warren with Calzaghe. Talking of big names/other champs and fighting neither. Specialising in unknown guys with pretty records or ex champs that were over the hill or guys that narrowly lost for a world title previously.

Showtime/PBC could have made the Munguia but didn’t want to. They could have also found someone better than Sulecki that isn’t Munguia/Canelo.

Charlo is broadly fighting once a year - they need better.

Showtime offered Canelo a $100m two-fight deal, which included the Charlo bout, but the Mexican rejected their offer.

Jaime Munguia accepted the financials offered to them by Showtime, but DAZN scuppered that bout.

For sure, Sulecki is not a good opponent for Charlo, but it’s not as of anyone can pretend Showtime haven’t made serious attempts to orchestrate marquee bouts.

I honestly don’t know why you’re placing the majority of the blame on Showtime for the Charlo-Munguia bout falling through.

[Bandog]

Crap fight. It's kind of like Andrade fight Montiel, only worse.

[Bandog]

It's funny to watch EO scramble to spin things when. Charlo is involved.

[maverick23]

I forgot to say, within the last month or so, Showtime tried to orchestrate bouts for Jermall Charlo to face Jaime Munguia and Canelo.

And he’s fighting Sulecki.

We had years of this in the U.K. from Warren with Calzaghe. Talking of big names/other champs and fighting neither. Specialising in unknown guys with pretty records or ex champs that were over the hill or guys that narrowly lost for a world title previously.

Showtime/PBC could have made the Munguia but didn’t want to. They could have also found someone better than Sulecki that isn’t Munguia/Canelo.

Charlo is broadly fighting once a year - they need better.

Showtime offered Canelo a $100m two-fight deal, which included the Charlo bout, but the Mexican rejected their offer.

Jaime Munguia accepted the financials offered to them by Showtime, but DAZN scuppered that bout.

For sure, Sulecki is not a good opponent for Charlo, but it’s not as of anyone can pretend Showtime haven’t made serious attempts to orchestrate marquee bouts.

I honestly don’t know why you’re placing the majority of the blame on Showtime for the Charlo-Munguia bout falling through.

I’m placing the blame with Showtime because they’ve made Charlo/Sulecki in Charlo’s first fight for 12 months and Sulecki isn’t even mandatory. Could they not have found someone better?

They tried to make the Canelo fight but couldn’t get it over the line. They could have made the Munguia fight but chose not to work with another platform and made the Sulecki fight instead.

You tend to get judged on what you achieve and not what you start but don’t complete.

[Enlightened-One]

I’m placing the blame with Showtime because they’ve made Charlo/Sulecki in Charlo’s first fight for 12 months and Sulecki isn’t even mandatory. Could they not have found someone better?

I completely agree. And I’ve said precisely the same thing a few times in this thread.

They tried to make the Canelo fight but couldn’t get it over the line.

To be fair, Showtime was willing to pay Canelo $100m to defend his 168lbs belts against title challengers, with one of them being Jermall Charlo.

Canelo preferred the DAZN package, because Golovkin and Bivol are better opponents than Charlo and Benavidez.

And there’s not much that Showtime could have done about that.

They could have made the Munguia fight but chose not to work with another platform and made the Sulecki fight instead.

I strongly disagree with this point.

Showtime initiated the negotiations for the Charlo-Munguia bout.

Showtime were on the commercial A-side of negotiations.

Showtime offered a lucrative financial package that Munguia accepted.

Showtime were willing to compromise (offering the TV rights for Mexico and the UK).

But DAZN rejected the bout, because they wanted to split the PPV revenue in the US.

I can’t place the entire blame on Showtime for what transpired.

You tend to get judged on what you achieve and not what you start but don’t complete.

Yes, but it also “takes two to tango”, with Canelo and Munguia's handlers refusing to play ball.

You can’t force people to do what they don’t want to do.

But I will concede that Maciej Sulecki is an embarrassingly appalling opponent for Jermall Charlo to face at his point of his career.

[handsofstone]

Golden Boys 3 names all pulled out of eliminators, genuine reasons or otherwise they need to get their sh1t together and start maybe promoting other guys better