Marciano vs Charles fight films question

[Riddick Bowie]

Why are these two classic fights between such celebrated pugs only available in brutally truncated highlight form?

Earlier fights like Charles vs Louis and Marciano vs Walcott are available in full, likewise later ones like Marciano vs Moore have complete coverage. But Marciano vs Charles I and II barely survive? Is Klompton still posting?

[pound per pound]

Why are these two classic fights between such celebrated pugs only available in brutally truncated highlight form?

Earlier fights like Charles vs Louis and Marciano vs Walcott are available in full, likewise later ones like Marciano vs Moore have complete coverage. But Marciano vs Charles I and II barely survive? Is Klompton still posting?

I have a few rounds of Marciano vs Charles I. Its a war! Charles tires toward the end and can't keep up with Rocky's hectic pace.

[goose 5]

I have 5 rounds of the first bout-the entire fight does exist on film; I remember Mike Tyson saying he saw it and thought Charles won.

[klompton]

The Marciano-Walcott fight is not complete. Its missing one round as I recall, I believe its the fifth or sixth round. Marciano-Charles 1 is missing rounds 2, 3, 5, 11, 12, 13, and 14. Marciano-Charles 2 has highlights (usually about 2 mins) of every round. There is no longer version of these fights. They were filmed by Winnik films for theatrical release and edited down to fit the short time slot they were given which was about 20 minutes. Marciano-Charles 1 runs 28 minutes because outtakes of some of the rounds that werent in the theatrical release have been found and edited back into it. Marciano-Walcott is a different story. That was a kinescope and the missing round appears to be at a point where the two reels were joined. Sometimes at this spot films go bad, suffer more damage, or maybe it just got mistakenly cut. Its hard to say for that one but its missing in every version Ive ever seen. I have an original film of this and Ive seen the film in the Jacobs/Cayton BigFights collection and both are missing the round in question. The theatrical film of this fight, which was also filmed by Winnik, lists the missing round but its a very short clip and if I remember correctly its actually footage from another round.

[goose 5]

Klompton : Could you estimate what percentage of the Friday Night Fights(1944-1964) exists on film?

[Riddick Bowie]

The Marciano-Walcott fight is not complete. Its missing one round as I recall, I believe its the fifth or sixth round. Marciano-Charles 1 is missing rounds 2, 3, 5, 11, 12, 13, and 14. Marciano-Charles 2 has highlights (usually about 2 mins) of every round. There is no longer version of these fights. They were filmed by Winnik films for theatrical release and edited down to fit the short time slot they were given which was about 20 minutes. Marciano-Charles 1 runs 28 minutes because outtakes of some of the rounds that werent in the theatrical release have been found and edited back into it. Marciano-Walcott is a different story. That was a kinescope and the missing round appears to be at a point where the two reels were joined. Sometimes at this spot films go bad, suffer more damage, or maybe it just got mistakenly cut. Its hard to say for that one but its missing in every version Ive ever seen. I have an original film of this and Ive seen the film in the Jacobs/Cayton BigFights collection and both are missing the round in question. The theatrical film of this fight, which was also filmed by Winnik, lists the missing round but its a very short clip and if I remember correctly its actually footage from another round.

Very interesting and informative as always. Thanks

[klompton]

Klompton : Could you estimate what percentage of the Friday Night Fights(1944-1964) exists on film?

Nothing before 1948. Only one film survives from 1948 and thats a home movie taken off a TV screen of the undercard of the Marcel Cerdan-Laverne Roach fight, specifically Dick Wagner vs Jesse Jenkins. After that you jump to Mid 1949 when the last two rounds of the kinescope of the first Charles-Walcott fight survive. From there you jump all the way to 1953 and the second Marciano-Walcott fight. Next is the Casillo-Martinez fight in 1954 which is just a home movie filmed from a TV screen. Next is Basilio-DeMarco in 1955 and Robinson-Castellani which was a home movie filmed from a TV screen. Likewise with Costa-Bell, Boyd Johnson, Pastrano-Rowan, Akins-Logart, and Ryff-Vasquez. In 1956 you have Lausse-Savage, Pastrano-Speiser, Jackson-Baker, Fullmer-Turner, Castellani-Sullivan, Costa-Vasquez, Khalfi-Lightburn, and Ortega-Logart all short silent home movies filmed from a TV. Then you have Tiger Jones-Humez complete kinescope, followed by home movies filmed from a tv screen of Hamia-Costa, Giambra-Sullivan and Jackson-Williams. A kinescope of the first five rounds of Logart-Miceli followed by home movies from a tv of Hamia-Chestnut, Bahama-Smallwood, Robinson-Olson 4, and Fullmer-Humez. A complete kinescope of Patterson-Jackson 1, after which most of the FNF are only extent as home movies filmed from a TV screen until mid 1958 when you start seeing kinescopes appear such as Akins-Martinez and Ortiz-Busso 1 in june of 1958 and then in August of 1958 you get a pretty steady run of them with gaps here and there. That continues until its termination in June of 1960. We dont have the final program (Von Clay-Doug Jones) that I know of but the second to last program (Lausse-Pigou) exists.

[goose 5]

Great info thanks ! Were the first two Pep-saddler bouts and the three Gavilan -Williams bouts destroyed on purpose, by accident or are they lost ?

[klompton]

Great info thanks ! Were the first two Pep-saddler bouts and the three Gavilan -Williams bouts destroyed on purpose, by accident or are they lost ?

As you can see from above those fights were all fight before NBC was reliably recording their boxing matches via kinescope.

[goose 5]

I'll hit you with just this last question: Do you believe the story that Gavilan's second bout with Robinson was filmed and taken back to Cuba ?

[klompton]

I'll hit you with just this last question: Do you believe the story that Gavilan's second bout with Robinson was filmed and taken back to Cuba ?

Its certainly possible but Ive seen no reliable record of it. Just rumors.

[Vic Mackey]

Great insight Klompton really appreciate your posts. I have one question if you dont mind. Do you know if the second fight between Rafael Herrera and Rodolfo Martinez exists in full or theres just highlights?

[Caractacus]

I'll hit you with just this last question: Do you believe the story that Gavilan's second bout with Robinson was filmed and taken back to Cuba ?

Did Kd Gavilan ever publish his autobiography ??
I seem to remember reading in an old edition
of JET magazine ,he was about to either write or publish his autobiography (in Spanish)
( circa 1959 ) but just around that time the Cuban revolution happened.
or maybe it was another retired famous boxer from Cuba I'm thinking of.