Title Defenses: Quality on Average - Middleweights

[gilgamesh]

I figured this would make about as interesting a thread as the Heavyweight one we've done already. The Big 4 reigns that come to mind at Middleweight are Monzon, Hagler, Hopkins and Golovkin.

Other notable ones can be brought up later as well.

I'll start us off with Hagler

Fulgencio Obelmejias - 5
Vito Antuofermo - 6 (I'd give Hagler a little extra here, because of the fact that it was a matter of some unfinished business)
Mustafo Hamsho - 6
Bill "Caveman" Lee - 2
Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4 (he'd already beat the guy, so he gets less points this time)
Tony Sibson - 5
Wilford Scypion - 3
Roberto Duran - 7 (not his best weight, but still. It's Duran)
Juan Domingo Roldan - 5
Mustafa Hamsho - 5 (same as Obelmejias. He'd already beaten the guy. Comfortably)
Thomas Hearns - 9
John Mugabi - 6

Overall a pretty strong average level of contender for Hagler. Guys like Hamsho I know aren't huge names historically, but he beat Benitez and other notable contenders of the era so he was worthy of his shots if nothing else.

[gilgamesh]

Here's the list for 'ol Triple G

1st reign
Kassim Ouma - 3
Lajuan Simon - 1
Makoto Fuchigami - 1
Grzegorz Proksa - 5
Gabriel Rosado - 4
Nobuhiro Ishida - 3
Matthew Macklin - 5
Curtis Stevens - 4
Adama Osumanu - 2
Daniel Geale - 5
Marco Antonio Rubio - 3
Martin Murray - 5
Willie Monroe Jr. - 3
David Lemieux - 5
Dominic Wade - 2
Kell Brook - 5
Daniel Jacobs - 6
Saul Alvarez - 10 (I'm giving GGG his rightful credit for what we all know was a win in that 1st fight)
Vanes Martirosyan - 4


2nd reign
Kamil Szeremeta - 2
Ryoto Murata - 4


So even me who proudly proclaims GGG as his favorite fighter of the 2010's still cannot deny that for the most part his title reign was filled with below average guys. He was ducked a lot by a lot of the names unfortunately.

Some of the ones he missed like say Peter Quillin weren't any better than ones he beat.

[gilgamesh]

Bernard Hopkins

Steve Frank - 1
Joe Lipsey - 2
William Bo James - 2
John David Jackson - 4 (Jackson was past it by this time)
Glen Johnson - 6 (This is a fight that came to look better with the passing of time, but nevertheless it's a good one)
Andrew Council - 2
Simon Brown - 3
Robert Allen - 0 (can't give him any credit for the 1st fight as it's an inconclusive No Contest ending)
Robert Allen (2nd fight) - 5 (KO win this time. Much more satisfying)
Antwun Echols - 5
Syd Vanderpool - 4
Antwun Echols (2nd fight) - 5
Keith Holmes - 6
Felix Trinidad - 8
Carl Daniels - 5
Morrade Hakkar - 2
William Joppy - 6
Robert Allen (3rd fight) - 5
Oscar De La Hoya - 7
Howard Eastman - 5

Starting at Echols. B-Hop's level of opposition as Champion goes up considerably.

And for the record I rate his win over De La Hoya one notch below Trinidad on account of Trinidad was a better Middleweight.

[gilgamesh]

Carlos Monzon

Nino Benvenuti - 7 (Rematches the man he won the title from, and dominates him.)
Emile Griffith - 7
Denny Moyer - 3
Jean Claude Bouttier - 5
Tom Bogs - 4
Bennie Briscoe - 7
Emile Griffith (2nd fight) - 6
Jean Claude Bouttier (2nd fight) 5
Jose Napoles - 6
Tony Mundine - 5
Tony Licata - 5
Gratien Tonna - 4
Rodrigo Valdes - 8
Rodrigo Valdes (2nd fight) - 8

The best all around competition of any long reigning Middleweight Champion by a country mile.

[Ezzard]

Appreciate the thread. Don't agree with rating challengers lower a second time but to each his own.

Hagler

Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Vito Antuofermo - 6
Mustafo Hamsho - 5
Bill "Caveman" Lee - 1
Fulgencio Obelmejias - 4
Tony Sibson - 5
Wilford Scypion - 4
Roberto Duran - 6
Juan Domingo Roldan - 5
Mustafa Hamsho - 5
Thomas Hearns - 7
John Mugabi - 5

[Ezzard]

Hopkins

Steve Frank - 1
Joe Lipsey - 2
William Bo James - 2
John David Jackson - 3
Glen Johnson - 6
Andrew Council - 2
Simon Brown - 2
Robert Allen - NC
Robert Allen - 4
Antwun Echols - 3
Syd Vanderpool - 4
Antwun Echols - 3
Keith Holmes - 5
Felix Trinidad - 6
Carl Daniels - 3
Morrade Hakkar - 1
William Joppy - 5
Robert Allen - 4
Oscar De La Hoya - 5
Howard Eastman - 5

[HomicideHenry]

Appreciate the thread. Don't agree with rating challengers lower a second time but to each his own.

I do. Would you rate Bermaine Stiverne the same in his rematch with Wilder as you would first match with Wilder? Or rate Billy Conn the same in his return bout with Joe Louis? A decline in abilities and performance has to be taken into consideration. Otherwise you'd have to score Muhammad Ali as 10/10 when Larry Holmes beat him when the reality was Ali was 3/10 at best at that point.

[Ezzard]

Golovkin

1st reign
Kassim Ouma - 3
Lajuan Simon - 1
Makoto Fuchigami - 1
Grzegorz Proksa - 3
Gabriel Rosado - 3
Nobuhiro Ishida - 2
Matthew Macklin - 5
Curtis Stevens - 4
Adama Osumanu - 3
Daniel Geale - 5
Marco Antonio Rubio - 3
Martin Murray - 5
Willie Monroe Jr. - 3
David Lemieux - 5
Dominic Wade - 2
Kell Brook - 5
Daniel Jacobs - 8
Saul Alvarez - 10 (I think GGG won both fights pretty clearly)
Vanes Martirosyan - 3


2nd reign
Kamil Szeremeta - 2
Ryoto Murata - 5

[Ezzard]

Appreciate the thread. Don't agree with rating challengers lower a second time but to each his own.

I do. Would you rate Bermaine Stiverne the same in his rematch with Wilder as you would first match with Wilder? Or rate Billy Conn the same in his return bout with Joe Louis? A decline in abilities and performance has to be taken into consideration. Otherwise you'd have to score Muhammad Ali as 10/10 when Larry Holmes beat him when the reality was Ali was 3/10 at best at that point.

IF they've declined yes. But that didn't seem to be your rationale, that's all.

[Ezzard]

Monzon

Nino Benvenuti - 7
Emile Griffith - 7
Denny Moyer - 4
Jean Claude Bouttier - 4
Tom Bogs - 3
Bennie Briscoe - 7
Emile Griffith - 7
Jean Claude Bouttier - 4
Jose Napoles - 5
Tony Mundine - 5
Tony Licata - 4
Gratien Tonna - 4
Rodrigo Valdes - 8
Rodrigo Valdes - 8

Very impressive

[gilgamesh]

Appreciate the thread. Don't agree with rating challengers lower a second time but to each his own.

It's only if they've declined.

Notice I didn't reduce the rating for Valdes in the rematch because he was still in top form, Griffith however had slipped a good bit by the 2nd time he fought Monzon.

I probably did overdo it with Hagler though, you're right.

[gilgamesh]

It's also interesting to note that while Monzon was Champion he also had about 5 or 6 non title fights that he won as well. They don't count for his title reign, but it's just an interesting thing to note that that's something that used to be a common trend.

For instance Ray Robinson over all of his reigns would have very few Title defenses, but he would've had a good bit of fights while being the Champion because he fought non title fights all the f*cking time.

Another thing worth noting about Monzon. Is that I'd say the Benvenuti that he beat for the title was better than the one he defended against in the rematch by a notch or so.

[HomicideHenry]

It's also interesting to note that while Monzon was Champion he also had about 5 or 6 non title fights that he won as well. They don't count for his title reign, but it's just an interesting thing to note that that's something that used to be a common trend.

For instance Ray Robinson over all of his reigns would have very few Title defenses, but he would've had a good bit of fights while being the Champion because he fought non title fights all the f*cking time.

I'm a stickler for the lineal title, so technically every fight "non-title" or not indeed has the lineal title on the line.

[gilgamesh]

It's also interesting to note that while Monzon was Champion he also had about 5 or 6 non title fights that he won as well. They don't count for his title reign, but it's just an interesting thing to note that that's something that used to be a common trend.

For instance Ray Robinson over all of his reigns would have very few Title defenses, but he would've had a good bit of fights while being the Champion because he fought non title fights all the f*cking time.

I'm a stickler for the lineal title, so technically every fight "non-title" or not indeed has the lineal title on the line.

I'd agree with that if they were within the Middleweight limit. In many of Monzon's non title fights though he would've been a pound or two over. Just enough to make it not a Middleweight bout. Not sure if the same was the case with Robinson. I'm sure it varies from fight to fight.

These little details really are fascinating to uncover more closely.

[HomicideHenry]

It's also interesting to note that while Monzon was Champion he also had about 5 or 6 non title fights that he won as well. They don't count for his title reign, but it's just an interesting thing to note that that's something that used to be a common trend.

For instance Ray Robinson over all of his reigns would have very few Title defenses, but he would've had a good bit of fights while being the Champion because he fought non title fights all the f*cking time.

I'm a stickler for the lineal title, so technically every fight "non-title" or not indeed has the lineal title on the line.

I'd agree with that if they were within the Middleweight limit. In many of Monzon's non title fights though he would've been a pound or two over. Just enough to make it not a Middleweight bout. Not sure if the same was the case with Robinson. I'm sure it varies from fight to fight.

These little details really are fascinating to uncover more closely.

I figure as long as there's a ten pound disparity limit it counts, but it definitely is something to pay attention to as to what constituted middleweight or not. I'm reminded of years ago that I pointed out most of Jake LaMotta's fights were at light heavyweight because back then there was no super middleweight division so 161-175 was light heavyweight.

[gilgamesh]

I don't know if one of these kinda threads would be interesting with every single weight class. But certainly with the major ones.

With some weight classes there'd only really be a few particularly noteworthy reigns worth discussing. With the Heavyweight, Middleweight, Welterweight, and Lightweight divisions in particular though. There are numerous champions that are worthy of discussion.

When you really examine Boxing history. It really is a rare achievement for any fighter in any weight class to become a Champion, and stay one for a length of time. Just getting there is a Herculean effort in and of itself, but after getting there the discipline it takes to keep it is something very few men throughout the sports history really seem to have.

[gilgamesh]

Ok so I just looked closely at Robinson's fights after winning the title from Lamotta.

Technically his 1st title defense after Lamotta is his loss to Randy Turpin, but he'd fought 8 fights in between Lamotta and Turpin.

In many of them he weight 160.5 just enough to be over the limit as I say. In one case though He weighed 154 to his opponents 159. So that's a Middleweight fight.

Interesting stuff. Stay tuned to this thread for more.

TALES
OF
INTEREST!!!!!

[pound per pound]

Bernard Hopkins

Steve Frank - 1
Joe Lipsey - 2
William Bo James - 2
John David Jackson - 4 (Jackson was past it by this time)
Glen Johnson - 6 (This is a fight that came to look better with the passing of time, but nevertheless it's a good one)
Andrew Council - 2
Simon Brown - 3
Robert Allen - 0 (can't give him any credit for the 1st fight as it's an inconclusive No Contest ending)
Robert Allen (2nd fight) - 5 (KO win this time. Much more satisfying)
Antwun Echols - 5
Syd Vanderpool - 4
Antwun Echols (2nd fight) - 5
Keith Holmes - 6
Felix Trinidad - 8
Carl Daniels - 5
Morrade Hakkar - 2
William Joppy - 6
Robert Allen (3rd fight) - 5
Oscar De La Hoya - 7
Howard Eastman - 5

Starting at Echols. B-Hop's level of opposition as Champion goes up considerably.

And for the record I rate his win over De La Hoya one notch below Trinidad on account of Trinidad was a better Middleweight.

Interesting stuff. I would not rate the blow up light weight in Oscar De La Hoya a 7 for a title defeat at middle weight. More like a name who was a 5. Tito was another lower weight fighter, and he's best rated at welter weight. How did he beat at middle weight? Another 5.

[pound per pound]

Hopkins

Steve Frank - 1
Joe Lipsey - 2
William Bo James - 2
John David Jackson - 3
Glen Johnson - 6
Andrew Council - 2
Simon Brown - 2
Robert Allen - NC
Robert Allen - 4
Antwun Echols - 3
Syd Vanderpool - 4
Antwun Echols - 3
Keith Holmes - 5
Felix Trinidad - 6
Carl Daniels - 3
Morrade Hakkar - 1
William Joppy - 5
Robert Allen - 4
Oscar De La Hoya - 5
Howard Eastman - 5

I agree with your ratings.

[gilgamesh]

Bernard Hopkins

Steve Frank - 1
Joe Lipsey - 2
William Bo James - 2
John David Jackson - 4 (Jackson was past it by this time)
Glen Johnson - 6 (This is a fight that came to look better with the passing of time, but nevertheless it's a good one)
Andrew Council - 2
Simon Brown - 3
Robert Allen - 0 (can't give him any credit for the 1st fight as it's an inconclusive No Contest ending)
Robert Allen (2nd fight) - 5 (KO win this time. Much more satisfying)
Antwun Echols - 5
Syd Vanderpool - 4
Antwun Echols (2nd fight) - 5
Keith Holmes - 6
Felix Trinidad - 8
Carl Daniels - 5
Morrade Hakkar - 2
William Joppy - 6
Robert Allen (3rd fight) - 5
Oscar De La Hoya - 7
Howard Eastman - 5

Starting at Echols. B-Hop's level of opposition as Champion goes up considerably.

And for the record I rate his win over De La Hoya one notch below Trinidad on account of Trinidad was a better Middleweight.

Interesting stuff. I would not rate the blow up light weight in Oscar De La Hoya a 7 for a title defeat at middle weight. More like a name who was a 5. Tito was another lower weight fighter, and he's best rated at welter weight. How did he beat at middle weight? Another 5.

Considering that De La Hoya was plenty formidable at 154 I can't just pretend he was nothing at all at 160 pounds. Tito was briefly P4P #1 I believe coming into his fight with Hopkins. Undefeated at 40-0. Favored to win the Middleweight Tournament.

You can call him a 5 with hindsight if you want, but the fact of the matter is beating Tito in 2001 made Hopkins the Fighter of the Year, and gave his career a tremendous shot in the arm. That's not just another title defense.

[margaret thatcher]

oscar shoulda lost to sturm, that was before facing hopkins so it's not hindsite. he's defo not a 7 at mw

[DrDuke]

Monzon and Hagler have impressive streaks. Hopkins and Golovkin have far more of quantity than quality.

[gilgamesh]

Monzon and Hagler have impressive streaks. Hopkins and Golovkin have far more of quantity than quality.

Yes that's why I have both Monzon and Hagler as Top 3 all time Middleweights, and Hopkins and GGG aren't there. I would have Hopkins in the Top 5 though.

[DrDuke]

Monzon and Hagler have impressive streaks. Hopkins and Golovkin have far more of quantity than quality.

Yes that's why I have both Monzon and Hagler as Top 3 all time Middleweights, and Hopkins and GGG aren't there. I would have Hopkins in the Top 5 though.

I'd say Monzon is #1, Hagler is #2.

Hopkins can easily fall short even to the top 5. The likes of Greb, Robinson, Benvenuti and Tiger have solid claims to be higher than Bernard.

[gilgamesh]

Monzon and Hagler have impressive streaks. Hopkins and Golovkin have far more of quantity than quality.

Yes that's why I have both Monzon and Hagler as Top 3 all time Middleweights, and Hopkins and GGG aren't there. I would have Hopkins in the Top 5 though.

I'd say Monzon is #1, Hagler is #2.

Hopkins can easily fall short even to the top 5. The likes of Greb, Robinson, Benvenuti and Tiger have solid claims to be higher than Bernard.

Yep. Greb is #1. Robinson is #4. I'd probably put 'ol B Hop at 5. Benvenuti definitely doesn't have a better claim than Hopkins, But I'm sure there are guys that'd come close or you could make a strong argument for.