How to make the Cruiserweight more attractive

jab · Post by **jab** » 05 Apr 2005, 17:15

Right now, the Cruiser class is not that appreacited by fans. The main reason is that it doesnt keep talent in it long enough. There are many fat lt-hvs in it which cant make 175lb anymore and there are some very small heavyweights who shy away from fighting the behemoths of the modern heavyweight division.

The people who can really be called cruisers, the athletes that weigh naturally at 185-215lb can be kept in the division if they had it made harder to move up at heavy for the big money fights.

How to do that?

Money is not just going to rain in the cruiserweight class unless the talent pool deepens considerably. Because ultimately, it is you and I and the other millions of fans who pay their wages, not the promoters. How cn the cruisers be convinced to stay put in the cruiser class.

I propose that lifting the limit from 200 to 210-215lb will make this class very attractive. First, the natural cruisers will not have it easy in balloning over this limit, as they will shortchange themselves, fighting with more weight than their bodies can reasonably accomodate and still be athletically competitive.
Secondly, extemely gifted and talented lt-hvs (like Roy way) would not be able to jump at heavy which now will be 215lb+, so they will only deepen the talent pool at cruiser after they conquer and dispose of all major fights at 175lb.
Thirdly, it will attract some of the talented but small natural heavyes, those in the 215-225lb range, that will no longer feel able to deal with the 260lb muscular monster of the 21 century.

This reform will in my opinion enrich the cruiser class and make it one of the most exciting clases.

Feel free to contribute or to tear down my argument.

Thank you gentlemen.

Jab

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 05 Apr 2005, 17:52

BAD IDEA, its already gone from 185 upto 200 recently and the quality hasnt improved. Its unfair to Lightheavyweights who already go up 25lbs

Anyone whos any good will always go upto fight the heavyweights anyway. See Holyfield, Moorer (LW not CW), Hide, Toney, Jirov etc

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 05 Apr 2005, 17:53

The jump from 175 to 215 is too high.

jab · Post by **jab** » 05 Apr 2005, 18:15

nickd wrote:The jump from 175 to 215 is too high.

well, it could be 210-215, not 215 necessarily.

Also. keep in mind that it does not have to have anyone weighin exactly 215. For example, Braithwaithe was 188 though he could have come at 200. He choose not to.

The division does not ask you to come right up to the upper limit, only not to be above it.

It would be like a Junior Heavyweight class, where there are some weight differences between fighters, but not the monster differences that we see in the heavyweights (like Byrd being 56lb lighter than McCline).

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 06 Apr 2005, 09:55

jab wrote:
nickd wrote:The jump from 175 to 215 is too high.
well, it could be 210-215, not 215 necessarily.

Also. keep in mind that it does not have to have anyone weighin exactly 215. For example, Braithwaithe was 188 though he could have come at 200. He choose not to.

The division does not ask you to come right up to the upper limit, only not to be above it.

It would be like a Junior Heavyweight class, where there are some weight differences between fighters, but not the monster differences that we see in the heavyweights (like Byrd being 56lb lighter than McCline).

Byrd could make 200lbs for Cruserweight, he chooses not too.

leforge · Post by **leforge** » 06 Apr 2005, 10:36

The money not as good as heavy thats why Byrd will remain there.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 10:45

There is only one way to make the Cruiserweight division attractive, and it's already happened, or almost happened, unify the belts.

The top cruiserweight have been avoiding eachother for years. Mormeck, Jirov, Nelson, etc should all have fought. Get Nelson or Jirov in the mix, get them to fight Mormeck, these would be legitimate world class fights and the winner could proclaim himself a genuine unified belt holder.

That's the only thing which will make people take notice. The talent pool is diluted by the presence of heavyweight above, so we need recognisable stars. Trouble is, the best fighters all move up, Holyfield and Gomez could probably have remained Cruiserweight champions for as long as they wished.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 06 Apr 2005, 14:26

I love cruiser. People keep degrading the division like its barren of excitment and talent. Cruiser has more punchers that any division I can think of. Guys like Sellers (retired), Thompson, Cantatore, Bell, Mormeck, Haye, Macarinelli, Gurov, Braithwaite, Davis and I know im forgetting a few. These guys put people to sleep regularly. Not only that but they all bar none have exciting styles and go for the knockout. Its the punchers division.

Always wondered what Herbie Hide would have been like at Cruiser. 200lbs seems to be the ideal punching weight. Shavers weighted in this region and poleaxed heavyweights.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 06 Apr 2005, 18:31

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:I love cruiser. People keep degrading the division like its barren of excitment and talent. Cruiser has more punchers that any division I can think of. Guys like Sellers (retired), Thompson, Cantatore, Bell, Mormeck, Haye, Macarinelli, Gurov, Braithwaite, Davis and I know im forgetting a few. These guys put people to sleep regularly. Not only that but they all bar none have exciting styles and go for the knockout. Its the punchers division.

Always wondered what Herbie Hide would have been like at Cruiser. 200lbs seems to be the ideal punching weight. Shavers weighted in this region and poleaxed heavyweights.

Agree completely. I'd be in favour of renaming it 'Heavyweight' and labelling the rest 'Super-Heavyweight'. The reason being that the moron majority have an uncanny calling for the word 'Heavyweight' and would be attracted to it (probably more than 'Super-Heavyweight' fights

), and I think they'd like what they see, because as you say, there is many a highlight reel puncher in the division. It would be good also if the trend of the champion being a physical specimen (Holyfield, Mormeck) were to continue.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 18:37

Yes, but since Holyfield was champ, how often have the top cruisers fought one another, hardly every. The division hasn't been unified in it's history.

jab · Post by **jab** » 06 Apr 2005, 19:19

Manos de Oro wrote:
Lefthookhappy19 wrote:I love cruiser. People keep degrading the division like its barren of excitment and talent. Cruiser has more punchers that any division I can think of. Guys like Sellers (retired), Thompson, Cantatore, Bell, Mormeck, Haye, Macarinelli, Gurov, Braithwaite, Davis and I know im forgetting a few. These guys put people to sleep regularly. Not only that but they all bar none have exciting styles and go for the knockout. Its the punchers division.

Always wondered what Herbie Hide would have been like at Cruiser. 200lbs seems to be the ideal punching weight. Shavers weighted in this region and poleaxed heavyweights.
Agree completely. I'd be in favour of renaming it 'Heavyweight' and labelling the rest 'Super-Heavyweight'. The reason being that the moron majority have an uncanny calling for the word 'Heavyweight' and would be attracted to it (probably more than 'Super-Heavyweight' fights ), and I think they'd like what they see, because as you say, there is many a highlight reel puncher in the division. It would be good also if the trend of the champion being a physical specimen (Holyfield, Mormeck) were to continue.

I know waht you mean. The majority have a kind of fetish with the word Heavyweight. If you relabel Cruiser as Heavyweight and Heavy as Super-Heavy, then Heavy (forlerly Cruiser class) would over night become the premier division.

So yeah, the question can be refrazed this way. But what do you think of my suggestion of raising the Cruiser (now heavy as you suggest) limit to say 210-215, just so to give it some room for weight variation (some, but not the ridiculous weight variations that appear at heavy today?
Would add some excitement, no?

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Apr 2005, 19:34

Unfotunately the Cruiserweight devision just doesn't excite me - kind of like the heavyweight devision. I don't really know what it would take to excite me. There are some good boxers in the devision, but nothing I think in the P4P bracket and that is part of the problem.

I think it was James who said unify the devision, I cannot see that making much of a difference. If King unified the three belts he owned in the Heavyweights that still would make a difference, because the three champions are average. Klitchsko has some talent but has little competition. Even if a Chris Byrd or John Ruiz holds 3 belts a fight with Klitchsko holds about as much appeal as it does today - because the DK big heavy bills have shown that his fighters are average. If the champs fight each other it is just two average champs fighting each other.

Cruiserweight looked a bit exiting when Toney and Jirov were around, in that one fight they had shown what they had. I was looking forward to maybe future matches such as Toney vs Braithwaite and Jirov vs Mormeck and maybe the winners and losers fighting each other. Braithwaite looked good coming through and I think a fight with Toney (which was being hyped) might have been a real goer. Jirov vs Mormeck would have been too monster trucks facing each other. These matches were appealing mainly due to Toney.

However, that did happen and the manner of Mormeck's victory on Saturday leaves it hard to see much good coming from the devision. Who can compete with this guy, Braithwaite was considered the better champion but got anhilated - 41 year old Virgil Hill ran him close, but surely not Hill vs Mormeck III. Nelson vs Mormeck? Not going to happen. Thompson vs Mormeck - good but doesn't have world appeal.

The only fighter who I think can beat Mormeck is O Neil Bell. However, once that fight is decided it will be again one good (but not great) champion and a series of average fighters who will never beat him. There needs to be 3 or 4 good opperators who it is concievable can beat the main guy - Cruiserweight doesn't have that and untill it does it will not excite. The Braithwaite vs Mormeck result has adversely affected the devision.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Apr 2005, 20:38

you're missing something though. if the cruiserweight was completely unified, then it might be a prize worth having, rather than having the situation we have now where anyone who walks around at 190+ wanting to be at heavyweight.

To be honest though, the cruiserweight division has always been a dissapointment.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 06 Apr 2005, 22:39

jab wrote:
Manos de Oro wrote:
Lefthookhappy19 wrote:I love cruiser. People keep degrading the division like its barren of excitment and talent. Cruiser has more punchers that any division I can think of. Guys like Sellers (retired), Thompson, Cantatore, Bell, Mormeck, Haye, Macarinelli, Gurov, Braithwaite, Davis and I know im forgetting a few. These guys put people to sleep regularly. Not only that but they all bar none have exciting styles and go for the knockout. Its the punchers division.

Always wondered what Herbie Hide would have been like at Cruiser. 200lbs seems to be the ideal punching weight. Shavers weighted in this region and poleaxed heavyweights.
Agree completely. I'd be in favour of renaming it 'Heavyweight' and labelling the rest 'Super-Heavyweight'. The reason being that the moron majority have an uncanny calling for the word 'Heavyweight' and would be attracted to it (probably more than 'Super-Heavyweight' fights ), and I think they'd like what they see, because as you say, there is many a highlight reel puncher in the division. It would be good also if the trend of the champion being a physical specimen (Holyfield, Mormeck) were to continue.
I know waht you mean. The majority have a kind of fetish with the word Heavyweight. If you relabel Cruiser as Heavyweight and Heavy as Super-Heavy, then Heavy (forlerly Cruiser class) would over night become the premier division.

So yeah, the question can be refrazed this way. But what do you think of my suggestion of raising the Cruiser (now heavy as you suggest) limit to say 210-215, just so to give it some room for weight variation (some, but not the ridiculous weight variations that appear at heavy today?
Would add some excitement, no?

I'm not sure mate, you really reckon that extra weight would make much of a difference in the overall scheme of things? 200 is a nice round number.

I'm not sure really...

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 06 Apr 2005, 22:39

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, but since Holyfield was champ, how often have the top cruisers fought one another, hardly every. The division hasn't been unified in it's history.

Holyfield unified it in the late 80's (why some people regard him as the best ever cruiser) and Mormeck unified it at the weekend. He can only hold WBC/WBA because at present there is no IBF champion (Davis was stripped in February). He is the only legitimate champion at cruiser (sorry Johnny).

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Apr 2005, 05:15

I'm aware he is the nominal 'undisputed champ' I would still like to see him take all the belts, and then defend against the best available competition out there.

However, what's the betting that Mormeck moves up to heavyweight and gets tonked. I bet within three fights he's fighting at heavy.

jab · Post by **jab** » 07 Apr 2005, 06:07

[quote="Manos de Oro
I'm not sure mate, you really reckon that extra weight would make much of a difference in the overall scheme of things? 200 is a nice round number.

I'm not sure really...[/quote]

Yes, Manos, I do.

Because the raising of the limit from 200 to 215 would double the number of fighters in this class. And as far as quality fighters, the number would go up about 10 times.

If you are so much into round figures, then you can choose 220lb instead of 215. That would be even better, as the number of fighter would be that much greater.
We are discussing the principle, not some arbitrary number.

Raff The Frenchman · Post by **Raff The Frenchman** » 07 Apr 2005, 06:45

Mormeck was originally fighting at lt heavy and moved up to cruiser which is the perfect division for him...he is about 5'11 or 6'00 so he wouldnt make a very good HW to me...Mormeck declared in an interview that he wanted to unify with the IBF belt so don't worry, King is very confident about Mormeck (and so am i) and will do all he can to make him earn a shot at IBF belt : stay tuned !

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Apr 2005, 06:47

jab wrote:[quote="Manos de Oro
I'm not sure mate, you really reckon that extra weight would make much of a difference in the overall scheme of things? 200 is a nice round number. I'm not sure really...

Yes, Manos, I do.

Because the raising of the limit from 200 to 215 would double the number of fighters in this class. And as far as quality fighters, the number would go up about 10 times.

If you are so much into round figures, then you can choose 220lb instead of 215. That would be even better, as the number of fighter would be that much greater.
We are discussing the principle, not some arbitrary number.

[/quote]

Yes, and raising the limit to 215-220 would also take away lots of fighters campagining at heavyweight, it's a bad idea.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 07 Apr 2005, 14:27

fornicate the belts. If you like punchers and excitment then you like cruiserweight. The weights good as it is. All of the guys I mentioned earlier are never in dull fights.

Get rid of supermiddle if any. Now thats a mediocre weight division. Especially since Jones left. Populated by Ottke(retired), Beyer, Calzaghe, Mundine, Lucas and many other guys who have been so called "champions" at 168. With the exception of MAYBE Calzaghe, all these guys would never be champions at any other weight.

jab · Post by **jab** » 07 Apr 2005, 16:02

If all the super and junior divisions would be scraped, then all those caught in between weights boxers would migrate to the next division (up or down, dpending on their courage) and there would be a lot more excitement in the lower weights.

Shirow · Post by **Shirow** » 08 Apr 2005, 04:34

jab wrote:If all the super and junior divisions would be scraped, then all those caught in between weights boxers would migrate to the next division (up or down, dpending on their courage) and there would be a lot more excitement in the lower weights.

The flip side of that of course is that you'd get fighters waiting years and years for their shot just like in the old days.

Can you imagine how many more (regional, ethnic, interim, hairstyle etc etc) belts would have to be created to keep the sanctioning fees rolling in?

About the cruisers i reckon it's more about name recognition rather than the weight categories. Cruisers need a star. Which current smaller HW would rather fight Byrd in the new division than face Klitchsko in the HW or Super HW?

bugs · Post by **bugs** » 08 Apr 2005, 05:26

I dont really pay that much attention to Cruiserweight, but the Eubank Thompson fights were great, and the Thompson Nelson fight was good too. Not to mention how much I enjoyed Thompson Rothmann, and Thompson Sellers was an exciting fight in prospect and reality. Oh hang on I see a pattern here, I think all Crusierweight fights should include Carl Thompson, then they will all be great.

HeavyHitters · Post by **HeavyHitters** » 09 Apr 2005, 04:18

Maybe have the top contenders on Extreme Makeover!

s9s · Post by **s9s** » 09 Apr 2005, 15:19

Manos de Oro wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, but since Holyfield was champ, how often have the top cruisers fought one another, hardly every. The division hasn't been unified in it's history.
Holyfield unified it in the late 80's (why some people regard him as the best ever cruiser) and Mormeck unified it at the weekend. He can only hold WBC/WBA because at present there is no IBF champion (Davis was stripped in February). He is the only legitimate champion at cruiser (sorry Johnny).

Is the WBO not held in high regard in USA then? Not that highly regarded here in UK, Scott Harrison would not be any sort of champion at all, Johnny Nelson could have done more recently but the WBO & Warren seem content to let him sit on it.

How to make the Cruiserweight more attractive

Agree

How to make the Cruiserweight more attractive

Too much mascara!