The Phantom Punch: 60 Years Later......What Really Happened?

[elmersalsa]

On a Tuesday night of May 25th, 1965, in Lewiston, ME of all places, Muhammad Ali, known as Cassius Clay from the majority, stopped the aging Sonny Liston in their rematch by knockout in the first round.

It was a bizarre and weird ending, even by today's time, of how in the world, a fight of that magnitude in the heavyweight championship of the world, can cause so much controversy.

It was so controversial to be true. Was the punch that Ali gave Liston a decent punch? Was it hard enough to put a guy like Liston down? We will never know.

But, at 23, Ali established his supremacy at the heavyweight throne. It didn't mattered to him if the majority of the fans in boxing, liked him or not. To him, it was a win that convinced him that he was The Greatest.

For Liston, at 33, was probably the end of his era. He was erased from the heavyweight crown picture until his death in 1970. Everything about him was a mystery or hard to believe. He was raised with 19 brothers and sisters. He was to be believed that he was in mob activities. His age was questionable. Was he really 33? Not even his own mother was sure about his birth.

His first loss with Clay was a circus. Did he quit because of a dislocated left shoulder? Or did he quit because Clay was too fast and was giving him an ass whupping? And to redeem himself from that, in the rematch, it was worse. Did he really took a dive? Or did the punch really hurt him? We will never know. He was never again in title contention fighting nobodies in Europe. And in 1970, he dies in strange circumstances.

What really happened in Lewiston, ME on that Tuesday night of May 25th, 1965?

Your comments, please.

[gilgamesh]

Liston took a dive. We'll never really know why. Lots of speculation as to why he might've taken the dive. No doubt in my mind whatsoever that he did.

Ultimately it's a minor story in the career of Ali, but a tremendously damaging blow to the legacy of Sonny Liston.

[elmersalsa]

It was a strange fight. And the first fight in Miami Beach, a year earlier, the great Sonny Liston claimed that he hurt his left shoulder because he was missing with those big left hooks.

And when it was time to redeem himself, another shot at glory, Liston did much worse. Unbelievable. Maybe the mob was involved in this fight. Liston was better than that.

[gilgamesh]

Some of the theories as to why Liston may have taken a dive.

1. He owed a favor to the mob.

2. He was afraid there would be an assassination attempt on him or Ali, and he simply wanted to get the hell out of there.

3. He simply knew he couldn't beat Ali, and just wasn't interested in taking the punishment.

The first 2 are probably the only ones that make any sense. Given his connection to the criminal world, I don't doubt at all that it may have been a mob favor.

[Controversial]

Dodgy for me, a punch landed for sure but I don't believe it would've flattened Liston like that, the way he was rolling around just looked suspicious. When you add in who Liston was associated with and the FBI thought it was worthy of an investigation says a lot.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Boys and Girlzzz, having watched this fight infinitely and using the footwork and punching angle on my heavy bag for Liston coming in low with a missed left hook, I practiced the baloney Ali "Anchor Punch" he claimed Black Blackface Vaudevillian Step'nfetchit taught him. Helps to have the hindsight of not being in the massive Ali hysteria that typically short circuits boxing reality. Already the above analysis has soiled itself just as Ali had by agreeing to fight Liston in the rematch that caused the WBA to strip him of their belt.

Ya know Vitali also got in his phantom punch on undefeated Olympic Gold Medalist who was tapped to take over the Hvy division, right?

The Ali counter straight right was delivered downward with him jumping backward to avoid Liston's missed off balance Left Hook while his body was parallel with the canvas was an absolute nothing shot. Liston ended up down, but before Walcott could start a count, Loonytunes Ali was trying to get around him to kick Liston in the head.

While Joe finally muscled Ali, basically fighting Ali to the neutral corner, a DQ offense, and surely you know Ali almost never went to a neutral corner, right? Liston was up with a count never started by Walcott.

Meanwhile, back at the pass Walcott was was immediately summoned to the timekeeper's bell where Nat Fleischer informs Walcott 10 secs passed a while back and Liston is KOed. So Walcott turns back to Liston who is up and fighting Ali to run over to inform them...ahem...without telling them about Nat and the Timekeeper...ahem...that Sonny is KOed.

I could go on, but really, I thought there was much more gravitas in longtime members than what has been demonstrated.

Ali shoulda been DQed, so while the authorities in charge of this remote Podunk town in Maine chosen to reduce Murderously Militant NOI members of Ali's new religion did their job, ie 2,434 fans in a 4,900-seat arena, the all-time record for the lowest attendance for a heavyweight championship fight, they gave us yet another dummy ham handed boxing result that keeps boxing in a 100% uproar exacerbated because boxing officials make their $$$ on orchestrated results as much as they can that froths the fans up everytime they lose their wad.

Timekeeper: "If that bum Clay had gone to a neutral corner instead of running around like a maniac, all the trouble would have been avoided," McDonough said. He acknowledged that Walcott could have asked him to start the count again "after he got that wild man—Clay—back to a neutral corner, but he didn't, so that was that."

It strikes me that most boxing fans get the result they moan about. No other sport has such poor officiating.

¡Basta already! Time to move to more fruitful discussions

[Caractacus]

THE "Anchor Punch" looked(IMOP) very similar to a Muay Thai style right hand,
where just before the blow lands the fist is directed downwards motion.

[Caractacus]

BTW did someone here mention Stepin Fetchit ?

[ksolomo1]

The way Liston went down just didn’t look right to a lot of people—even in slow motion, the punch doesn’t seem like it should’ve dropped him. But at the same time, Ali was so quick, maybe it just caught him perfectly.

[gilgamesh]

The way Liston went down just didn’t look right to a lot of people—even in slow motion, the punch doesn’t seem like it should’ve dropped him. But at the same time, Ali was so quick, maybe it just caught him perfectly.

The knockdown isn't what's suspicious. It's the getting up on his knees, and then flopping back over onto his back that makes it an obvious dive.

The punch could've conceivably rang his bell a little. It didn't ring his bell enough for him to be rolling around on the canvas like a guy getting into position to take a Flying Elbow Drop from Macho Man Randy Savage.

[Flump]

Liston took a dive. We'll never really know why. Lots of speculation as to why he might've taken the dive. No doubt in my mind whatsoever that he did.

Ultimately it's a minor story in the career of Ali, but a tremendously damaging blow to the legacy of Sonny Liston.

This. We'll never know. You only have to look at Ali's reaction to see that the punch was never enough to floor him like that. From then on, Walcott gave a Joe Louis level of refereeing mismanagement, while Ali got carried away with himself.

All in all, a total farce and a stain on boxing.

[keithmoonhangover]

The fact is, Ali caught Liston with lead right hand and Liston went down. The rest is just conjecture.

[gilgamesh]

The fact is, Ali caught Liston with lead right hand and Liston went down. The rest is just conjecture.

It's really not. You can use your eyes, and see it's an obvious dive.

[keithmoonhangover]

The fact is, Ali caught Liston with lead right hand and Liston went down. The rest is just conjecture.

It's really not. You can use your eyes, and see it's an obvious dive.

Ali landed a punch, a lead right hand, do you not agree?

[gilgamesh]

The fact is, Ali caught Liston with lead right hand and Liston went down. The rest is just conjecture.

It's really not. You can use your eyes, and see it's an obvious dive.

Ali landed a punch, a lead right hand, do you not agree?

Yeah he landed a punch no doubt. It's not out of the question it could've been a legit knockdown, but Sonny most definitely could've gotten up because his body language and movement on the ground shows he could've.

[Ezzard]

Story was that Liston was asahmed of his first fight performance and trained harder than ever for the rematch. Made the right sacrifices. But when the fight was postponed he couldn't get up for it again and poor lifestyle returned...

It looks like a flash/nothing knockdown at best.

Agree with Broughton that Ali should have been disqualified. But when do the rules ever really count in boxing. I guess a third fight would have just seen Liston get a pasting so it would not have done much other than keep this mini soap opera running a little longer.

[Ezzard]

There was a great gent who used to post here called jaclem. He once spoke of one of Ali's entourage who talked about the "ankle-punch"... I am para-phrasing, you can likely look the post up. But it sort of suggested that most of the anchorpunch rationale was just made up.

[Ambling Alp II]

There is no way in the world that a referee should disqualify a fighter in that situation.

[gilgamesh]

Story was that Liston was asahmed of his first fight performance and trained harder than ever for the rematch. Made the right sacrifices. But when the fight was postponed he couldn't get up for it again and poor lifestyle returned...

It looks like a flash/nothing knockdown at best.

Agree with Broughton that Ali should have been disqualified. But when do the rules ever really count in boxing. I guess a third fight would have just seen Liston get a pasting so it would not have done much other than keep this mini soap opera running a little longer.

For what?

[keithmoonhangover]

Story was that Liston was asahmed of his first fight performance and trained harder than ever for the rematch. Made the right sacrifices. But when the fight was postponed he couldn't get up for it again and poor lifestyle returned...

It looks like a flash/nothing knockdown at best.

Agree with Broughton that Ali should have been disqualified. But when do the rules ever really count in boxing. I guess a third fight would have just seen Liston get a pasting so it would not have done much other than keep this mini soap opera running a little longer.

For what?

Refusing to go to a neutral corner? Surely not.

[Caractacus]

what about Ali standing over Bonavena, should he have been "disqulified" for that too ?

[Yuzo]

THE "Anchor Punch" looked(IMOP) very similar to a Muay Thai style right hand,
where just before the blow lands the fist is directed downwards motion.

somewhere there is an interview of muhammad ali describing what he called his anchor punch step by step. what he is describing is floyd mayweather's pull counter and the "anchor" is when his weight is shifted over his front foot.

[Controversial]

Or the anchor punch was a load of nonsense made up to make it look better than it was lol

[Caractacus]

does it look like here that Zora Folley may have also been knocked out by a "Phantom Punch" here too ?
( he even re-acted like Liston did when he tried to get up off the canvas)
-1967-

[Yuzo]

Or the anchor punch was a load of nonsense made up to make it look better than it was lol

that was a punch he threw a lot and was how he countered your jab.