IN DEFENCE OF JOE - THE CONSIDERED UNBIASED OPINION ON JOE

[Wrists]

Howdy people

Having just been an observer over the past 6 months I have finally decided to take the plunge and post my own topic bout something I have strong opinions on.

Having read a lot on Joe Calzaghe the feeling I get from the vast majority is one of negativity and I can't understand and really think there is a lot of 'anti british boxers' going on here. here is what I feel is a considered unbiased opinion for what its worth:

1. Joe has never had a career defining fight - This is true and I feel his career has suffered as a result - he undoubtedly needs a fight v a Johnson or a Tarver or even a Hopkins to satisfy many

2. His opposition to date is poor - this is very unfair as he has fought a lot of the best that 168 has to offer - Brewer, Eubank, Reid, Mitchell and Sheika for me are all good opponents whom Joe has beaten without much bother at all, true he has had some gimme fights but everyone does, Hopkins has fought some poor opponents too and he is a legend cos he has beaten two welterweights!!!! (De La Hoya and Trinidad) Imagine if Joe were to beat a couple of light middles say winky or vargas then he would get abused from here to high heaven.

3. Sicknote? - yes I concede Joe has pulled out of too many fights, however an interesting point is Mike 'baddest man on planet' Tyson has done this more yet is revered by our american friends, blinkered yes I think so.

Look, Calzaghe is nearly 40-0 has made 10+ defences and has not been beaten since he was 15 years old - the guy is very good and should he meet anyone between 168-175 i feel he wins every time.

Lacy - to me its not a contest as he is raw, admittedly strong but had hell with Sheika enough said - Joe spanked him in 5

Listen, don't get sucked into the american mentalilty of slagging everyone off unless their surmane is gatti or ward.

Think, and look at what the individual has done - yes we know our fighters in general but in Lennox, Naz, Joe and Hatton we have had or have 4 guys we should champion, funnily enough thats the guys the yanks hate more than anyone.

here endeth the rant

Regards

Wrists

PS. Sergio Mora to win the Contender

[Manos de Oro]

Hiya Wrists, nice one finally posting.

1. The point is that he has been ripping the piss out of boxing fans for years. If he really 'craved' it, it would have happened years ago.

2. Learn about Hopkins' predecessors Hagler and Monzon.

3. Tyson ends up fighting people.

Look, Calzaghe is nearly 40-0 has made 10+ defences and has not been beaten since he was 15 years old - the guy is very good and should he meet anyone between 168-175 i feel he wins every time.

No offence man, but those are the words of a Warren mark/shill.

Listen, don't get sucked into the american mentalilty of slagging everyone off unless their surmane is gatti or ward.

What?

[josh fg]

No one questions Calzageh's skill the problem is he has hasn't really had a big fight since winning his title agains Eubank. You have to be going some to have held the WBO title since 1997 and to never have had a shot at unifiying the title. Dispite what he may clame he could have got a fight with Ottke if he had gone to germany. I fight which I believe he could have won.

Also for the amount Calzageh talks about wanting to fight RJJ, Clinton Woods, Tarver, Johnson at the same time with one hand tied behind his back he has done preciouse little to make it happen.

Boxing is an entertainment industry and he only makes his money from the fans yet when it comes to giving them something back in meaningful contests he has consistently faild to step up to the plate.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Howdy people

Having just been an observer over the past 6 months I have finally decided to take the plunge and post my own topic bout something I have strong opinions on.

Having read a lot on Joe Calzaghe the feeling I get from the vast majority is one of negativity and I can't understand and really think there is a lot of 'anti british boxers' going on here. here is what I feel is a considered unbiased opinion for what its worth:

1. Joe has never had a career defining fight - This is true and I feel his career has suffered as a result - he undoubtedly needs a fight v a Johnson or a Tarver or even a Hopkins to satisfy many

2. His opposition to date is poor - this is very unfair as he has fought a lot of the best that 168 has to offer - Brewer, Eubank, Reid, Mitchell and Sheika for me are all good opponents whom Joe has beaten without much bother at all, true he has had some gimme fights but everyone does, Hopkins has fought some poor opponents too and he is a legend cos he has beaten two welterweights!!!! (De La Hoya and Trinidad) Imagine if Joe were to beat a couple of light middles say winky or vargas then he would get abused from here to high heaven.

3. Sicknote? - yes I concede Joe has pulled out of too many fights, however an interesting point is Mike 'baddest man on planet' Tyson has done this more yet is revered by our american friends, blinkered yes I think so.

Look, Calzaghe is nearly 40-0 has made 10+ defences and has not been beaten since he was 15 years old - the guy is very good and should he meet anyone between 168-175 i feel he wins every time.

Lacy - to me its not a contest as he is raw, admittedly strong but had hell with Sheika enough said - Joe spanked him in 5

Listen, don't get sucked into the american mentalilty of slagging everyone off unless their surmane is gatti or ward.

Think, and look at what the individual has done - yes we know our fighters in general but in Lennox, Naz, Joe and Hatton we have had or have 4 guys we should champion, funnily enough thats the guys the yanks hate more than anyone.

here endeth the rant

Regards

Wrists

PS. Sergio Mora to win the Contender

Hopkins unlike Calzaghe, has GENUINELY cleaned out the division. Admittedly that was a weak division, but he consistently turned back all the challengers. Keith Holmes, Williams Joppy, Felix Trinidad, Howard Eastman, were all the top available contenders, and he beat them all. He's still going and if he beats Taylor, he will have turned back the latest offering.

Hatton is yet to win a genuine world title, or beat a genuine elite level fighter yet, impressive as he is, and much as I like to watch him, he has not achieved anything near what Lennox, Naseem or even Calzaghe have so let's not enshrine him in the hall of fame JUST yet.

Calzaghe is the one who has been talking for years about not getting the defining fights, but after a whlie, you have to wonder why. Why didn't he go to Germany, take the short money, and blast Ottke into retirement. Why didn't he take a risk and sacrifice the WBO belt in favour of getting a genuine title belt where the better challengers were, rather than face countless WBOrdinary challengers.

Tyson may be revered in America, but here, he doesn't count for shit. His last good win was against Razor Ruddock, aside from the debacle against Golota, he's not done anything to suggest he is a force in the division. During his career, Tyson did at least face off against the other belt holders to unify the title, and faced Holyfield and Lewis, there were some he avoided, but he wanted the major belts.

Sheika boxed a lot more cautiously against Lacy than he has in years, and Lacy is still a bit green. Yes, I favour Calzaghe to beat Lacy, but first of all we need to see the fight happen, hopefully it will.

Calzaghe didn't beat Reid easily, he won a razor thin split decision and never showed any interest in a rematch. Fair enough, that's his call, I don't think many fighters would want to defend twice against Reid, but to say he won easily is just plain wrong.

Hopkins win over trinidad was impressive, Trinidad may have been a welterweight, but he was a very hard hitting one. He absolutely creamed Cherifi, something Eastman, a genuine middleweight had a much harder time doing, and annihilated Joppy in a fashion nobody else has ever done. That is the mark of a genuine middleweight.

The reason Yanks give our fighter a hard time is that they come up short. How many British fighters in recent times, have taken on and beaten the best in the world? Only Nigel Benn and Steve Collins really faced off against the best in the world. Even Eubank wasn't interested in facing

Hatton looks like he means business, win or lose against Tszyu, he's earned my respect, he wants to beat the best available competition, and how knows, maybe he will.

Calzaghe has had a pretty impressive career, but he's stopped short of really pushing the envelope, taking risks

Look at Judah, he took a measly $50,000 purse against Spinks, but now he's the champ and he will make some big paydays. Calzaghe by contrast thus far, hasn't shown willing to take the short end on any fight. He turned down Kessler, who had a genuine big 3 belt, on the grounds that nobody had heard of him outside of Denmark, who cares, everyone's heard of the WBA.

Calzaghe was probably my favourite fighter from these shores for quite some time, when Naz dissapeared, he was my best hope for a new star, I thought he was going to go to America and kick some arse, but it never happened, and thus I got bored.

There's still time for Joe to crown his career with some impressive achievements. I reckon he could unify the SM belts if he wanted to.

[liamlion]

I reckon he could unify the SM belts if he wanted to.

I ultimately think this is the reason Calzaghe gets such critcism.

He has the ability to do something which very few British fighters have ever been able to do, and that is walk around the planet with the undisputed championship of the world. The americans do it, why doesnt he?

The state of the division - admittedly its now slowly getting better - makes it very possible for Joe to get hold of all three proper belts.

James your comment could be attributed to any year from 1998 onwards, yet Calzaghe's career just doesnt seem to move. He is the most frustrating boxer, he has the talent, he's in an 'accomdating' division yet at the end of the day I reckon he's got the mentality of Matt Le Tissier - Big fish in a small pond.

[Wrists]

Howdy

Thanks for the replies people - I have just read my post again and have to apologise for the way in which I have made my point regarding what I called the 'american mentality'.

The point I have tried to make here is that it seems to me in america unless every fight is a hagler-hearns mark two then its crap

sorry for the misunderstanding.

Hop

[black panther]

basically looks to me as ppl slag joe off because he has all the talent, all the ability but lacks the desire. and he's running out of time to make his mark. Another point is that if a guy looked at joe's record and compared it to sven ottke they would have to say ottke was better because of the quality of opposition he fought but in reality if u saw both fight there is no question joe was/is better.

[Manos de Oro]

Definitely agree with liamlion. Not sure he wouldn't have suffered at least one defeat on his record by now if he had managed to unify, but I do think his career could have been so much better than it now looks. The thing that's annoying about Joe (PR issues aside) is that these opinions aren't written in black and white on his record - people looking back once it's all over will just see him as another in the long list of WBO frauds.

[kevo]

I reckon people's negativity towards Calzaghe comes from frustration. He's had a couple of good wins, making us think he could go further, but despite all of his talking, he hasn't delivered.

[Wrists]

Take on board what you say - still think Hopkins is good but over appreciated for want of a better phrase.

I honestly believe (maybe I am niave) that Joe is avoided by the likes of Tarver, and Hopkins.

People argue that Joe should take the 'short money' against Ottke yet will argue Hopkins was right to turn down 3 million v Joe.

If I am wrong then I will hold my hands up - as I say i aint no expert.

Calzaghe beats everyone from 168-175 period (ok so maybe I am biting too much here)

It was the same with Naz - he beat johnson, medina, bungu, soto (at the time people thought would win), kelley (only 1 loss in 50 fights), vasquez (WBA champ unitl the week of the Naz fight), Mccullough, Robinson and Sanchez (good young fighter) yet he is a bum cos he fought a bad fight and lost by 3-4 rounds against a living legend that is Barrera - if Naz was american he would have been the best thing since sliced bread.

PS. Joe do everyone a favour and knock Froch spark out please!!!

[steve689]

I have never questioned his ability but it's his attitude that annoys me, he could have blitzed the division and unified all the belts but is content defending his no mark belt against no mark foes. Mkrtchian, Salem, Veit rematch is no way to try and secure a big fight in my eyes. He bleats on about not having a challenge and "reigning supreme" at SM for years when in reality he has picked off weak fighters and faded ex champs, when there are guys like Green, Beyer, Ottke, Kessler, Mundine, Markussen, Lacy at the weight there is no way he can justify the fights he is taking and claiming there is no competition at the weight.

None of these afforementioned Boxers are world beaters granted but when they are available to fight and Calzaghe chooses a Pudwill or a Salem instead it tells me all i need to know about JC.

[coneye]

Sicknote is just like the big local bully, he's always available to slap someone around when there smaller or less talented , but when it comes to someone who will have a go back he's always got an excuse or just simply stays home,

when we were kids there was another kid in the street who reminds me of sicknote he used to stay in looking through the window when the smaller kids were out he would come and bully them when the bigger kids come out all of a sudden his mam would call hin in for tea. Fat little bastard used to have a dozen tea's on a saturday starting at about 10 am .Funny enough it was never his fault either it was always the little kid picking on him.

Sicknote is a fackin embaresment to british boxinghe would of been undisputed years ago if he would of had any heart about him , sort of reminds me of the old italian tank jokes

[jamesmcdonnell]

Take on board what you say - still think Hopkins is good but over appreciated for want of a better phrase.

I honestly believe (maybe I am niave) that Joe is avoided by the likes of Tarver, and Hopkins.

People argue that Joe should take the 'short money' against Ottke yet will argue Hopkins was right to turn down 3 million v Joe.

If I am wrong then I will hold my hands up - as I say i aint no expert.

Calzaghe beats everyone from 168-175 period (ok so maybe I am biting too much here)

It was the same with Naz - he beat johnson, medina, bungu, soto (at the time people thought would win), kelley (only 1 loss in 50 fights), vasquez (WBA champ unitl the week of the Naz fight), Mccullough, Robinson and Sanchez (good young fighter) yet he is a bum cos he fought a bad fight and lost by 3-4 rounds against a living legend that is Barrera - if Naz was american he would have been the best thing since sliced bread.

PS. Joe do everyone a favour and knock Froch spark out please!!!

Mate, Hopkins is the UNDISPUTED middleweight champ. Why on earth should he come to England to face Joe on home territory, after campaigning his entire career at middleweight, all for the WBO belt.

Joe stood to gain the title of UNDISPUTED champ if he beat Ottke. Hopkins would just have become WBO SM champ, big difference.

Most boxing people in the states rate Naseem pretty highly, he was very popular and anyone in their right mind knows he was a pretty good champ whose prime was brief.

[Loftgroov]

2. His opposition to date is poor - this is very unfair as he has fought a lot of the best that 168 has to offer - Brewer, Eubank, Reid, Mitchell and Sheika for me are all good opponents whom Joe has beaten without much bother at all.

Yeaaah but come on, most of (if not all) these fighters were past their prime and in the autumn of their careers. How would Calzaghe have faired against a PRIME Eubank (i.e. pre-Watson & Benn). He’d never have gone near him, knowing he’d have been battered if he did.

Calzaghe has made a 40 fight career on persistant claims that he is fighting solid and credible opposition. After 40 fights, and umpteen title defences why has he never looked to fight the cream in the division? Do you honestly believe hes just been unfortunate or something?

The guy enjoys a good pay day at the office once in a while, and otherwise pissing it up in Wales. He has no genuine ambition and his actions treat his fans with distain. The guy must be laughing himself half daft to have got where he has having done what hes done.

I’m not “against” Calzaghe… I just wish he’d sod off, and not draw such attention/thought/comment from people. He doesn’t warrant it.

[Loftgroov]

I honestly believe (maybe I am niave) that Joe is avoided by the likes of Tarver, and Hopkins.

Change your medication then.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Possibly they have little interest in fighting Jones, but I wouldn't call it avoiding him. I can also understand Hopkins not wanting to move up in weight. He's a bit old for jumping up weight divisions, and in truth he isn't even a big middleweight. He consistently weighs in under the 160 limit, and probably weighs the same come fight night. Calzaghe probably weighs 175 on fight night, that's a big ask for an old guy like Hopkins.

I know that Hopkins turned down a payday to face Calzaghe, but then he turned down other paydays, and I don't think Hopkins is exactly running scared of anyone. Christ, if he was I doubt he would be facing Taylor, who although a bit green is the best physical challenge available.

[Wrists]

Hopkins should nov move up in weight - well how come that was always a criticism of Naz when he ruled the 126 ers for ages.

Its one rule for US fighters and one for the others.

People say on here that joe should have gone to germany taken the thin edge of the purse to beat ottke yet condone the fact hopkins would not do the same to fight Joe over here!!!

Staggering logic!!!!

[J]

no it isnt.

think about it but take of you JC glasses first.

all time great middleweight, legacy assured, also a natural middlweight not pushing the limit, so why weight hop, and why come to fornicating wales of all places to fight for the WBO belt and have to give up 4 unified middlweight belts.

think you will find its your logic that is askew my friend.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Hopkins should nov move up in weight - well how come that was always a criticism of Naz when he ruled the 126 ers for ages.

Its one rule for US fighters and one for the others.

People say on here that joe should have gone to germany taken the thin edge of the purse to beat ottke yet condone the fact hopkins would not do the same to fight Joe over here!!!

Staggering logic!!!!

Mate, either you are deranged, or you are related to Calzaghe.

1 Calzaghe had only the WBO BELT!! Ottke had the IBF, and later added the WBC belt. After all, it's Calzaghe who was complaining about not having had a defining fight. Hopkins already had his when he beat Trinidad. If Calzaghe is going to bleat on endlessly about not getting the defining fight, then why not do something about it, rather than insist on purse parity or advantage, home advant

2 Calzaghe was CALLING HOPKINS OUT, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. If you are going to call on Hopkins, you can't expect to dictate terms or complain when he doesn't play ball.

3 Calzaghe has been going on about struggling to make weight for years, and talking about moving up to LH. At no point has Hopkins EVER said he had problems making weight, he's even stated he could make LIGHT MIDDLEWEIGHT at a push. Why should he move up to SuperMiddleweight just to suit Calzaghe?

4 Calzaghe needed Hopkins, not the other way around. Hopkins place in history is assured, a fight with Calzaghe would not have been a big deal.

5 The criticism of Naseem was not that he didn't move up, it was that he lost to Barrera, didn't face Marquez or Morales, and then didn't come back from his defeat.

As for your talk being an 'unbiased and considered view of Calzaghe', it's anything but I'm afraid.

[MightyWarrior]

All the bullshit, SportsNetwork hype and who-ducked-who arguments aside, I'd still rate Calzaghe as one of the very best fighters we've ever had from these shores.

Great chin
Brilliant speed for a 160 pounder
Massive heart
huge confidence ( ever seen him look even remotely nervous? )
Excellent punch ( any doubts about that, ask the iron chinned Chris Eubank what he thinks )

I blame Warren for the completely unimaginitive path Joe's career has taken ( ok you can say Joe is part to blame, but that's like blaming his manager for how Joe fights in the ring - they've both got jobs to do. Clazaghe has done his, his manager hasn't....allegedly. )

The Welshman is a HUGE talent. Can't really see any of the UK middles of the last 20 years beating him to be honest ( maybe Graham )

Benn pretty much said this himself. And Collins straight out ducked him.

Bring on Lacy, he'll soon be a true believer

[jamesmcdonnell]

Nobody is denying that Calzaghe is a big talent. That is just the problem. Big talent means big expectation and requires a big defining fight to bring it out.

I don't think Calzaghe would have beaten Eubank in his prime, Benn he probably would have done up like a kipper due to Benn's being so prone to being hurt. Collins I think would have been close, Collins had one hell of a chin, and he was getting near the end of a long career. I always thought he got decked in training and that's why he ended his career?

Calzaghe's career has been like dating an incredibly good looking girl who plays hard to get. Occasional glimpses of their wonderful form, but always stopping short of the real deal.

[Wrists]

The same Eubank who was never really hurt against a big punching CRUISERWEIGHT in Carl Thompson

The Joe bashers will come up with Eubank over the hill, punch resistance not as it used to bla bla bla yet half of them would have picked Chris to beat Joe before the fight!!!

I admit i may a bit biased about Joe having first created the topic called 'UNBIASED'

Will hold my hands up to this one maybe a bit wrong but the hyprocisy and different rules given to other fighters gets my goat heres my list:

HOPKINS - undoutedly a great fighter but his legacy/legend is made up of beating two welterweights (De La Hoya and Trinidad) and other average fighters in Joppy and Eastman - now I know Joe's resume is not better but imagine if Joe beat Winky or say Reid (again) who is the same as Eastman then he would be called a 'bitch' amongst other things.

TYSON - who did he really beat?? Berbick, Seldon, Thomas and a LIGHT HEAVY in Spinks - every guy he fought on the same level Holyfield, Lewis he got spanked yet the 'baddest man on the planet' is a legend hmmm interesting

Listen, if we slag Joe off then lets apply the same rules to other fighters to even if god forbid they are american!!!

barrera, morales, de la hoya and winky I exclude from this - those guys to me are legends

Later

wrists

[liamlion]

Now Im no fan of alphabet championships...however Wrists you are attempting to compare Joe Calzaghe WBO champion against Undisputed World Champions who have had to beat the other champions to get such status...Calzaghe hasnt done this.

[jamesmcdonnell]

The same Eubank who was never really hurt against a big punching CRUISERWEIGHT in Carl Thompson

The Joe bashers will come up with Eubank over the hill, punch resistance not as it used to bla bla bla yet half of them would have picked Chris to beat Joe before the fight!!!

I admit i may a bit biased about Joe having first created the topic called 'UNBIASED'

Will hold my hands up to this one maybe a bit wrong but the hyprocisy and different rules given to other fighters gets my goat heres my list:

HOPKINS - undoutedly a great fighter but his legacy/legend is made up of beating two welterweights (De La Hoya and Trinidad) and other average fighters in Joppy and Eastman - now I know Joe's resume is not better but imagine if Joe beat Winky or say Reid (again) who is the same as Eastman then he would be called a 'bitch' amongst other things.

TYSON - who did he really beat?? Berbick, Seldon, Thomas and a LIGHT HEAVY in Spinks - every guy he fought on the same level Holyfield, Lewis he got spanked yet the 'baddest man on the planet' is a legend hmmm interesting

Listen, if we slag Joe off then lets apply the same rules to other fighters to even if god forbid they are american!!!

barrera, morales, de la hoya and winky I exclude from this - those guys to me are legends

Later

wrists

I don't see where Tyson came from in all this, few people on this forum at least on the British side rate him all that highly.

Again, Hopkins is UNDISPUTED champion, and the reason for that is that he took pretty meagre belts and beat all the belt holders.

Hopkins has turned back every single available challenger in the division of note, Calzaghe hasn't done the same in his division, and until he has,

You cannot compare Hopkins fighting Trinidad to Calzaghe fighting Winky. Winky enters the ring at under 160, Calzaghe would enter at 175, hardly a fair matchup, Tito and Hopkins are more or less the same size and build, Hopkins is a small middleweight frame wise, and Tito was always a big welterweight.

By the time Trinidad fought Bernard, he was struggling with the weight anyhow, and had just banged out Joppy in spectacular fashion, Joppy was a long running, if somewhat peripheral champion. If you are going to make comparisons, at least make sure they stack up, yours dont.

If Winky were to bang out Markus Beyer and then took on Calzaghe that would be comparable.

Tito is a genuine middleweight these days, or at least his performances suggested he was before and after beating Hopkins. He kicked the fornicate out of Cherifi, who Eastman laboured to stop on a TKO.

[Wrists]

you contradict yourself in one sentence there!!!

listen, i don't care about belts and organisations

just apply the same rules to all fighters regardless of whether they are american or whether they fight like gatti or ward