With all of this said about what Foreman would do to Tyson and what Liston would do to Foreman.
Who's the best heavyweight of all time? The best fighter, not who made money or brought fans to the sport, just which heavyweight could beat any other heavyweight.
Best Heavyweight of all time
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
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Graham Brett
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 260
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Max Molyneux
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 16:53
Maybe he did get better. But he shouldnt have lost to that guy to begin with. A prime fighter, in his peak fighting form should not lose to a guy like Schmelling. Unless you are going to say Schemlling really was a great fighter, Louis was exposed. He would have struggled agaisnt other all time greats in ther prime.Max Molyneux wrote:Was Schmelling the only one to beat Joe in his prime? Joe got better after that loss though.
Great jab, but too small and not enough power to beat the top 5 all time greats. His speed was also not that good. Ali would have danced rigns around him peppering him with soft jabs and pilling on points. Holmes would have outjabbed him with his longer and harder jab. Even Lewis would have had it easy in the jab department. Liston and Foreman would have anihilated him with raw power.
Louis might have beaten Tyson, but most of the big guys would have given him real headaches. (not only from the punches, but also because he would have had no effective fight plan to neutralise their size and power).
Louis: excelent, but only number 6-7. Not higher.
If disagree, pleas elaborate.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
jab wrote:Maybe he did get better. But he shouldnt have lost to that guy to begin with. A prime fighter, in his peak fighting form should not lose to a guy like Schmelling. Unless you are going to say Schemlling really was a great fighter, Louis was exposed. He would have struggled agaisnt other all time greats in ther prime.Max Molyneux wrote:Was Schmelling the only one to beat Joe in his prime? Joe got better after that loss though.
Great jab, but too small and not enough power to beat the top 5 all time greats. His speed was also not that good. Ali would have danced rigns around him peppering him with soft jabs and pilling on points. Holmes would have outjabbed him with his longer and harder jab. Even Lewis would have had it easy in the jab department. Liston and Foreman would have anihilated him with raw power.
Louis might have beaten Tyson, but most of the big guys would have given him real headaches. (not only from the punches, but also because he would have had no effective fight plan to neutralise their size and power).
Louis: excelent, but only number 6-7. Not higher.
If disagree, pleas elaborate.
Louis's hands were INCREDIBLY fast. His ability to throw fast punches which also were hard (ALi's threw fast punches but they were all arm punches) is unequaled (by far the best combination puncher of all the heavyweights) . .. His power was also incredible . . a true KO artist. He literally destroyed giants Abe Simon, Buddy Baer (and his dynamite punching brother Max), and Primo Carnera, who he lifted up in a clinch, demonstrating his awesome strength.
Louis was 21 when he lost to Schmeling, an age where many of today's HWs haven't even started winning amateur tournaments. He had a flaw of lazily bringing back his left hand after he jabbed. Schmeling, himself a great fighter and ring technician, happened to have one of the best right hand counters in boxing (that thing was a bullet and Max's real bread and butter as a fighter) Add it all up and Schmeling was the perfect opponent to give Louis a crucial lesson in boxing defense. No shame in losing to a hard punching, incredibly crafty former HW champ. It helped make Louis a better fighter.
No disrespect to your opinion, but it sounds as if you have no idea who Joe Louis really is.jab wrote:Maybe he did get better. But he shouldnt have lost to that guy to begin with. A prime fighter, in his peak fighting form should not lose to a guy like Schmelling. Unless you are going to say Schemlling really was a great fighter, Louis was exposed. He would have struggled agaisnt other all time greats in ther prime.Max Molyneux wrote:Was Schmelling the only one to beat Joe in his prime? Joe got better after that loss though.
Great jab, but too small and not enough power to beat the top 5 all time greats. His speed was also not that good. Ali would have danced rigns around him peppering him with soft jabs and pilling on points. Holmes would have outjabbed him with his longer and harder jab. Even Lewis would have had it easy in the jab department. Liston and Foreman would have anihilated him with raw power.
Louis might have beaten Tyson, but most of the big guys would have given him real headaches. (not only from the punches, but also because he would have had no effective fight plan to neutralise their size and power).
Louis: excelent, but only number 6-7. Not higher.
If disagree, pleas elaborate.
Joe Louis' power was definitely great, and he had good speed as well.
I see no problem with him knocking out Lewis as Rahman and McCall did.
Thats ok to disagree, Grimm,
thats why I asked to elaborate if someone does.
I am not old enough to have seen Louis live, but I did see on tape about 30 of his fights. Does that count?
I know about his jab, a real thing of beauty. Hard, accurate, and confident. He was great. Never said he wasnt. I gave him a number 6 all time, likely to beat all but about 5-6 of the all time greats.
On the negative side (and the reason I did not have him higher) is that he did lose in his prime. Also he was a bit flatfooted and not really that fast. He was quite small, only 6`and 76 reach, weighing in the 200lb range. Very strong for his size but not really overpowering agaisnt the bigger men. (the slow big men of his era do not count, as they could neither move nor punch as hard as those who came after Joe retired, if you know what I mean).
Dempsey fire,
you have a point about Alis soft punching arm pushed punches. But their speed did give them quite a snap. He was also one of those huge armed fellows, with 83 reach and moved too fast and was too quick to be caught by Joe. He might not have had enough to ko Joe, but he could have outpointed him from the outside. Similar to Jones v Ruiz. (of course, prime Ali, not the rope a dope one)
I agree that in terms of handspeed, Louis was a good one, but his feet werent that slow. Basically Ali would have won it with his feet and quick arm punching. Wouldnt really hurt Louis, but would pile enough points and win it in style. (not all fights have to end in ko to impress)
As for power, Louis was good, but he fought really small foes. The giants he fought were not the same quality as later fighters who came in the sport. They moves like in water and didnt have good staminas.
I would like to point out that Lewis was ever only beaten by guys with very long reach. Rahman and McCall didnt punch harder than Tua or Tyson (or Louis for that matter), but they had enough reach and speed to land clean and big. Thats why they succeeded and the others didnt. Lewis had a glass chin, but it only mattered in fights where someone landed a big one cleanly. Tua and Tyson punched air so their freakish punchign power didnt matter.
thats why I asked to elaborate if someone does.
I am not old enough to have seen Louis live, but I did see on tape about 30 of his fights. Does that count?
I know about his jab, a real thing of beauty. Hard, accurate, and confident. He was great. Never said he wasnt. I gave him a number 6 all time, likely to beat all but about 5-6 of the all time greats.
On the negative side (and the reason I did not have him higher) is that he did lose in his prime. Also he was a bit flatfooted and not really that fast. He was quite small, only 6`and 76 reach, weighing in the 200lb range. Very strong for his size but not really overpowering agaisnt the bigger men. (the slow big men of his era do not count, as they could neither move nor punch as hard as those who came after Joe retired, if you know what I mean).
Dempsey fire,
you have a point about Alis soft punching arm pushed punches. But their speed did give them quite a snap. He was also one of those huge armed fellows, with 83 reach and moved too fast and was too quick to be caught by Joe. He might not have had enough to ko Joe, but he could have outpointed him from the outside. Similar to Jones v Ruiz. (of course, prime Ali, not the rope a dope one)
I agree that in terms of handspeed, Louis was a good one, but his feet werent that slow. Basically Ali would have won it with his feet and quick arm punching. Wouldnt really hurt Louis, but would pile enough points and win it in style. (not all fights have to end in ko to impress)
As for power, Louis was good, but he fought really small foes. The giants he fought were not the same quality as later fighters who came in the sport. They moves like in water and didnt have good staminas.
I would like to point out that Lewis was ever only beaten by guys with very long reach. Rahman and McCall didnt punch harder than Tua or Tyson (or Louis for that matter), but they had enough reach and speed to land clean and big. Thats why they succeeded and the others didnt. Lewis had a glass chin, but it only mattered in fights where someone landed a big one cleanly. Tua and Tyson punched air so their freakish punchign power didnt matter.
...joe louis is my pick for the greatest of all time...but...i don't think any champion would have beaten all the others....except maybe in rematches. there would always be a certain style that would be a factor.
am i making this clear....not sure if i'm getting my point across well. maybe if i put it this way...none of the heavyweight champions would be undefeated if they fought all the others.....assuming prime match ups.
am i making this clear....not sure if i'm getting my point across well. maybe if i put it this way...none of the heavyweight champions would be undefeated if they fought all the others.....assuming prime match ups.
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thunderfromdownunder
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1789
- Joined: 15 May 2005, 06:55
Not trying to argue with anyone here, but there is one more thing about Joe Louis that I don't believe has been mentioned yet. Louis was a great finisher. What I am saying here is that if Louis got someone in trouble, it was usually all she wrote. It was almost impossible to escape without being knocked out once Louis had someone hurt or in trouble. About the hurt fighter's only chance would be to be saved by the bell.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
Louis was a big guy . . .not the dwarf you're making him out to be jab. 6'1-6'2ish, with massive legs and great shoulder and back development. A bigger man then Holyfield.You talk of reach but Louis's reach was the same as Ray Mercer who outjabbed Lewis in their match, and McCall's was around the same as well. Lewis only lost twice but was hurt numerous times thoughout his career (Bruno, Klitschko, Mercer, Holyfield, Briggs etc.) None of those guys save Evander (who was washed up) could ever be said to be great finishers. Louis would surely get in a good hard shot on Lennox hurting him, and once that happened you could bet the house he would not make it out of that round.
No-one is saying Buddy Baer or Abe Simon were as good as Lewis. That still isn't a factor when accessing Joe's punching ability-these were huge, durable guys. Baer had a much better chin then someone like McCline, W Klitschko, or even Lennox (and while not possesing the ring skills of Lennox Lewis, both Baer brothers punched as hard as the Englishman/Canadian/Jamaican . . .Max was literally killing people in the ring). Louis's went through both of them like a hot knife through butter. He had the punch to seriously hurt any man big or small . . . he sent Paulino Uzcudun's mouthpiece through his teeth . . .that's serious punching power.
Ali would have SERIOUS problems vs Louis. First off, Joe knew how to cut off the ring, and he could neutralize anything you tried to do (esp. if you relied on the jab) with a harder, snapping jab of his own (please don't begin to compare this matchup to Jones Jr-Ruiz . . John Ruiz would have never headlined a fight card in the 1940s, let alone be a top heavyweight). 2ndly, Ali NEVER was able to dance 15 rounds in his prime. That's a myth. He always had to take rounds off in which he stood flat-footed and sometimes even went to the ropes for a breather (see the first Chuvalo fight) In these instances, Louis would really work over Ali, and Cassius would discover that Joe Louis is a little more effective with someone against the ropes then a wild swinging, over-confident George Foreman or George Chuvalo.
No-one is saying Buddy Baer or Abe Simon were as good as Lewis. That still isn't a factor when accessing Joe's punching ability-these were huge, durable guys. Baer had a much better chin then someone like McCline, W Klitschko, or even Lennox (and while not possesing the ring skills of Lennox Lewis, both Baer brothers punched as hard as the Englishman/Canadian/Jamaican . . .Max was literally killing people in the ring). Louis's went through both of them like a hot knife through butter. He had the punch to seriously hurt any man big or small . . . he sent Paulino Uzcudun's mouthpiece through his teeth . . .that's serious punching power.
Ali would have SERIOUS problems vs Louis. First off, Joe knew how to cut off the ring, and he could neutralize anything you tried to do (esp. if you relied on the jab) with a harder, snapping jab of his own (please don't begin to compare this matchup to Jones Jr-Ruiz . . John Ruiz would have never headlined a fight card in the 1940s, let alone be a top heavyweight). 2ndly, Ali NEVER was able to dance 15 rounds in his prime. That's a myth. He always had to take rounds off in which he stood flat-footed and sometimes even went to the ropes for a breather (see the first Chuvalo fight) In these instances, Louis would really work over Ali, and Cassius would discover that Joe Louis is a little more effective with someone against the ropes then a wild swinging, over-confident George Foreman or George Chuvalo.
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Chopping Right
- Heavyweight
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