...absolutely no doubt about that...but at the time, nobody expected Lyle to lose to him...people started taking notice of Jimmy after that fight...KOJOE90 wrote:I take your point but Jimmy Young was a very tricky and skilled fighter who often did well against big, strong punchers like Lyle.Sweet Scientist wrote:I like he couldn't beat Jimmy Young when Young only had 15 pro fights...
Well that may be, but in Lyle's defence he was outslugging big bad George Foreman at times, and nearly knocked him out.BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:...and in case u forgot, cleveland williams came very close to knocking liston out in their first bout i believe. he was punishing sonny and it looked like he would put him away but the bell saved sonny. the next round sonny knocked him out.
but cleveland was outslugging liston until it happened.
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Sweet scientist, Lyle fought his best fights in his thirties. you think every fighter is out of their prime when they hit 30.
wait until you hit 30...and you'll know exactly what happens....and I never said every fighter is out of their prime when they hit 30...you are missing the 'fine details' again...which I mentioned to you on another thread...your missing the 'fine details' here makes some of your opinions suspect...are you missing the 'fine details' when you evaluate a fighter as well???......Brockton boy...study this quote...doesn't say a damn thing about every boxer being past his prime at 30...Sweet Scientist wrote:...Lyle was 30 something when he got out of prison and turned pro...by the time he was considered a legitmate contender, he was 33...the age when many physically start the down hill slide...
I don't agree that Williams was overrated... he gave a prime Liston two very tough fights despite their conclusions... most of the other contenders wanted nothing to do with Williams and Patterson avoided him like the plague even after he lost the world title...Marciano Frazier wrote:Williams is very overrated, in my opinion. He beat only one top 10 fighter in his entire career, namely Terrell, and Terrell beat him in a rematch. I would expect Lyle to win by a mid-round knockout.
You're telling me Patterson went out of his way to fight Liston, but avoided Williams, who Liston knocked out early twice, like the plague? I don't buy that at all.silkov wrote:I don't agree that Williams was overrated... he gave a prime Liston two very tough fights despite their conclusions... most of the other contenders wanted nothing to do with Williams and Patterson avoided him like the plague even after he lost the world title...Marciano Frazier wrote:Williams is very overrated, in my opinion. He beat only one top 10 fighter in his entire career, namely Terrell, and Terrell beat him in a rematch. I would expect Lyle to win by a mid-round knockout.
I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that Patterson avoided Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen & Zora Folley...he also avoided Liston for years...Cus D'Amato wanted Floyd to retain the title, not put it risk...he had many excuses for it...Liston was tied to the mob...Machen & Folley fought to a draw so they eliminated each other, etc....Marciano Frazier wrote: You're telling me Patterson went out of his way to fight Liston, but avoided Williams, who Liston knocked out early twice, like the plague? I don't buy that at all.
Is it not also true that Williams also found out prior to the fight with Ali (it may have even been in his dressingroom) that he was not going to get paid for that fight?dempseyfire wrote:I wholly dis-agree with MF . . .Williams today is extreamly UNDER-RATED b/c of the widespread embarassement he under-went when a shell of Williams got pulverised by Ali,
Yes, I know all that. What Silkov said was that Patterson avoided Williams like the plague even after losing the title. Patterson himself did not avoid anyone, although his management did try to keep him away from Machen, Folley, Williams, and Liston, until Patterson himself pulled out of D'Amato's control and took on Liston, and Patterson certainly didn't avoid anyone after losing the title.Sweet Scientist wrote:I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that Patterson avoided Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen & Zora Folley...he also avoided Liston for years...Cus D'Amato wanted Floyd to retain the title, not put it risk...he had many excuses for it...Liston was tied to the mob...Machen & Folley fought to a draw so they eliminated each other, etc....Marciano Frazier wrote: You're telling me Patterson went out of his way to fight Liston, but avoided Williams, who Liston knocked out early twice, like the plague? I don't buy that at all.
Well he never fought Williams even after he lost the title did he?... and Williams was highly rated right up to the mid-60s so a win over him would have done Patterson a lot of good. I'm not saying this to knock Patterson but its far as I see is fact... Williams was one of the most avoided fighters of his time......Marciano Frazier wrote:Yes, I know all that. What Silkov said was that Patterson avoided Williams like the plague even after losing the title. Patterson himself did not avoid anyone, although his management did try to keep him away from Machen, Folley, Williams, and Liston, until Patterson himself pulled out of D'Amato's control and took on Liston, and Patterson certainly didn't avoid anyone after losing the title.Sweet Scientist wrote:I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that Patterson avoided Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen & Zora Folley...he also avoided Liston for years...Cus D'Amato wanted Floyd to retain the title, not put it risk...he had many excuses for it...Liston was tied to the mob...Machen & Folley fought to a draw so they eliminated each other, etc....Marciano Frazier wrote: You're telling me Patterson went out of his way to fight Liston, but avoided Williams, who Liston knocked out early twice, like the plague? I don't buy that at all.
Yes, I agree that Williams pulling off a win over Terrell in their first fight and drawing with Machen is a solid accomplishment, but many talk of Williams as a potential champion and one of the best non-champion heavyweights, which in my opinion is hugely overrating him. Drawing with Machen and splitting two fights with Terrell is literally Williams' career high- going even up with two contenders, both of whom had a lot more success in the rest of their careers than he did. Williams' record is extremely padded and his high-level resume is absolutely paper thin. After Terell, what was Williams' career best win? ...Sonny Banks?? ....Terry Daniels???dempseyfire wrote:I wholly dis-agree with MF . . .Williams today is extreamly UNDER-RATED b/c of the widespread embarassement he under-went when a shell of Williams got pulverised by Ali, and also b/c all anyone else remembers is that he got knocked out by Liston twice.
Williams had almost everything you would want in a fighter . . .size, power, speed, great combination puncher, great jab, killer hook. His defense was not as good but he was fairly good at slipping punches, and he had great reflexes as well. Drawing with a prime Eddie Machen is no mean feat . . .Machen is another tremondously under-rated fighter . . .just as slick but stronger then Young and Byrd. Williams was avoided by many people. He's also the only person who ever went toe-to-toe with Liston and have any success . . Liston was just a bad-ass and had the better chin, but William's chin wasn't glass.
Lyle I like alot as well, but he remains to be someone who would have been so much better and a sure-fire champ if he had started boxing earlier. He was a great athlete, pretty good handspeed, good jab, great inside combination punching ability. But he fought too herky-jerky, a lot of times with both arms stretched out, playing around too much and not fighting 'tight.' With more early schooling he would have knocked out Foreman and never gotten caught by that Ali sucker punch.
I give Lyle a big shot, but feel in their primes Cleveland scores an 8th round knockout.
You can't hold the Liston and Satterfield losses against Williams... he came in as a substitute against Satterfield who was also the much more seasoned pro and Liston was at his peak when Williams fought him and Cleveland went toe to toe with Sonny in two great fights.Marciano Frazier wrote:Yes, I agree that Williams pulling off a win over Terrell in their first fight and drawing with Machen is a solid accomplishment, but many talk of Williams as a potential champion and one of the best non-champion heavyweights, which in my opinion is hugely overrating him. Drawing with Machen and splitting two fights with Terrell is literally Williams' career high- going even up with two contenders, both of whom had a lot more success in the rest of their careers than he did. Williams' record is extremely padded and his high-level resume is absolutely paper thin. After Terell, what was Williams' career best win? ...Sonny Banks?? ....Terry Daniels???dempseyfire wrote:I wholly dis-agree with MF . . .Williams today is extreamly UNDER-RATED b/c of the widespread embarassement he under-went when a shell of Williams got pulverised by Ali, and also b/c all anyone else remembers is that he got knocked out by Liston twice.
Williams had almost everything you would want in a fighter . . .size, power, speed, great combination puncher, great jab, killer hook. His defense was not as good but he was fairly good at slipping punches, and he had great reflexes as well. Drawing with a prime Eddie Machen is no mean feat . . .Machen is another tremondously under-rated fighter . . .just as slick but stronger then Young and Byrd. Williams was avoided by many people. He's also the only person who ever went toe-to-toe with Liston and have any success . . Liston was just a bad-ass and had the better chin, but William's chin wasn't glass.
Lyle I like alot as well, but he remains to be someone who would have been so much better and a sure-fire champ if he had started boxing earlier. He was a great athlete, pretty good handspeed, good jab, great inside combination punching ability. But he fought too herky-jerky, a lot of times with both arms stretched out, playing around too much and not fighting 'tight.' With more early schooling he would have knocked out Foreman and never gotten caught by that Ali sucker punch.
I give Lyle a big shot, but feel in their primes Cleveland scores an 8th round knockout.
Williams was a pretty big, strong guy with good handspeed and very good power, along with a sharp jab, but he had a leaky defense and a weak chin, and usually got himself flattened when he fought a puncher(ala Satterfield and Liston).
I humbly disagree, and think the better skilled Williams takes this one.Goodnight, Irene wrote:Lyle knocks him dead in eight rounds, after a competitive and at-times oddly quiet affair.