Leonard - Hagler II

[Ezzard]

Another rematch that never happened.

Ray could have scheduled this fight for 12 months after the first one. Hagler would have slipped even further but would have been even more determined.

Their first fight was the last in which Ray moved around the ring so much. Could he have done it again for 12 rounds?

[silkov]

Interesting post!. It all depends on which Hagler showed up. Against Mugubi and Leonard Hagler really showed that he was slipping... probably a mixture of age, inactivity and wars. Leonard seemed more vulnerble in his fights with Lalonde and in the Hearns rematch so if Marvin could have sharpened himself up I could see him beating Leonard. But its more likely that Hagler would have continued to decline and had they fought again Leonard would have won again.
I watched their fight again recently and think that Leonard won quite clearly... not only that but his punches seemed to bother Hagler more than Haglers bothered Ray. A sign perhaps that Hagler was really shot... which is one of the reasons why he never fought again.

[Ezzard]

Didn't he give Ray 12 months to agree to a rematch?

Hagler never really seemed to catch Ray cleanly. I think it was the 9th when Hager caught him with a shot in the corner and started trying to pour it on. Leonard looked in trouble but Hagler just couldn't get another clean hit in.

I agree that Hagler had been slipping. He relied too much on his chin and great conditioning against Mugabi. There's no doubt that Ray too was slipping.

I think the rematch should have happened. Ray came back again (and again) and should have given hagler his chance.

[Syntax Error]

Hagler was slower than Frank Bruno encased in cement for the 1st fight, so he would have been even slower for the rematch.

He was made to order for Sugar Ray; who was far too quick for him at this stage in Hagler's career.

A 12rd decision again for Leonard.

[wlvrne]

Interesting post!. It all depends on which Hagler showed up. Against Mugubi and Leonard Hagler really showed that he was slipping... probably a mixture of age, inactivity and wars. Leonard seemed more vulnerble in his fights with Lalonde and in the Hearns rematch so if Marvin could have sharpened himself up I could see him beating Leonard. But its more likely that Hagler would have continued to decline and had they fought again Leonard would have won again.
I watched their fight again recently and think that Leonard won quite clearly... not only that but his punches seemed to bother Hagler more than Haglers bothered Ray. A sign perhaps that Hagler was really shot... which is one of the reasons why he never fought again.

It was clear that Ray OUTRAN Marvin. And I'm sure you were as impressed by those shoe-shine punches as the judges obiviously were.

[silkov]

Interesting post!. It all depends on which Hagler showed up. Against Mugubi and Leonard Hagler really showed that he was slipping... probably a mixture of age, inactivity and wars. Leonard seemed more vulnerble in his fights with Lalonde and in the Hearns rematch so if Marvin could have sharpened himself up I could see him beating Leonard. But its more likely that Hagler would have continued to decline and had they fought again Leonard would have won again.
I watched their fight again recently and think that Leonard won quite clearly... not only that but his punches seemed to bother Hagler more than Haglers bothered Ray. A sign perhaps that Hagler was really shot... which is one of the reasons why he never fought again.

It was clear that Ray OUTRAN Marvin. And I'm sure you were as impressed by those shoe-shine punches as the judges obiviously were.

Well I think you should try and watch the fight... Leonard actually landed the better punches and shook Hagler up a few times. Hagler hardly landed a glove on Leonard till the later rounds. Its no use going forward throwing punches if they are just hitting air and arms like most of Haglers were.

And remember boxing is supposed to be an art and to hit and not be hit is part of that art ....though few can do this anymore.

[wlvrne]

I have the fight on tape and watch it occaisionally. And I always have Hagler winning by 2 points.

[silkov]

I have the fight on tape and watch it occaisionally. And I always have Hagler winning by 2 points.

But do you judge it by the styles in which they fought... Leonard retreating mostly and Hagler persuing... or do you judge it by clean punches landed?. I'm a huge Hagler fan, a bigger Hagler fan than I am a Leonard fan but when I watched the fight recently I thought Leonard won clearly... by about 2 rounds. A lot of haglers puches were taken on Leonards gloves and arms while Leonard actually landed cleaner and more often. Leonard won about 5 of the first 6 rounds and though Hagler caught up it was Hagler who looked the more tired fighter in the last round I think. Leonard often fought in 30 second bursts but they were enough to win the rounds cause Hagler had just been following and not landing.
All in all it was a close fight but Leonard outboxed Hagler imo.

[Ezzard]

When Hagler goes for broke in the 9th the tank wasn't as full s it had been in the prime years.

I once read a punch stat (though I don't actually believe that these things measure who won the fight but they are interesting nonetheles) and there wasn't much in it.

[silkov]

The big difference really was that while Leonard was blocking most of Haglers punches, Hagler was just walking through Leonards shots especially early on.
I think Haglers biggest mistake was that he didn't think Ray could last the distance.

[wlvrne]

Didn't Oscar DLH fight Trinidad and Mosley the same way, yet he lost to them both?
In the case of Hagler/Leonard, I think it was a case of favoritism for Leonard on the part of the judges.

[silkov]

Didn't Oscar DLH fight Trinidad and Mosley the same way, yet he lost to them both?
In the case of Hagler/Leonard, I think it was a case of favoritism for Leonard on the part of the judges.

Well thats why many people disagreed with the verdicts in the Delahoya fights. I definately thought he did enough to beat Shane in the second fight.

[Ezzard]

The big difference really was that while Leonard was blocking most of Haglers punches, Hagler was just walking through Leonards shots especially early on.
I think Haglers biggest mistake was that he didn't think Ray could last the distance.

I think he underestimated Ray. He should have fought 15 round and in a smaller ring. I also think that Hagler was uptight. Leonard had got to him in the pre-fight tour and Hagler pulled out early.

Marvin was a very proud man and he was aware that Ray could make him miss and then act up with his showboating. Hagler didn't want to be emabarrassed into missing by too wide a margin. I think this played on his mind.

I also think (like Silkov) that Hagler was certain that he'd KO Ray. I've discussed this a lot, and wonder what you all think, but the orthodox/southpaw debate rolled on after the fight. The main question being: why didn't Hagler start off as a leftie and fight that way the whole time?

My only real conclusion was that he wanted to switch once Ray had gotten used to the orthodox stance and had slowed down somewhat. Hagler thought a slower Leonard would have difficulty fighting the more efficient and comfortable southpaw Hagler, and that the switch would really swing the fight. Okay this is guess work on my behalf maybe someone here has a better explanation.

It might have helped Marvin if Ray had built up a more obvious lead (in Hagler's eyes). Maybe he'd have been forced to push for the KO.

I have to say this fight was one of the major events of my teen years but to this day I still feel robbed off rounds 13, 14 and 15.

[silkov]

The big difference really was that while Leonard was blocking most of Haglers punches, Hagler was just walking through Leonards shots especially early on.
I think Haglers biggest mistake was that he didn't think Ray could last the distance.

I think he underestimated Ray. He should have fought 15 round and in a smaller ring. I also think that Hagler was uptight. Leonard had got to him in the pre-fight tour and Hagler pulled out early.

Marvin was a very proud man and he was aware that Ray could make him miss and then act up with his showboating. Hagler didn't want to be emabarrassed into missing by too wide a margin. I think this played on his mind.

I also think (like Silkov) that Hagler was certain that he'd KO Ray. I've discussed this a lot, and wonder what you all think, but the orthodox/southpaw debate rolled on after the fight. The main question being: why didn't Hagler start off as a leftie and fight that way the whole time?

My only real conclusion was that he wanted to switch once Ray had gotten used to the orthodox stance and had slowed down somewhat. Hagler thought a slower Leonard would have difficulty fighting the more efficient and comfortable southpaw Hagler, and that the switch would really swing the fight. Okay this is guess work on my behalf maybe someone here has a better explanation.

It might have helped Marvin if Ray had built up a more obvious lead (in Hagler's eyes). Maybe he'd have been forced to push for the KO.

I have to say this fight was one of the major events of my teen years but to this day I still feel robbed off rounds 13, 14 and 15.

I've always thought that Hagler coming out orthadox was a sign that he was a little panicked inside, a little bit mentally intimidated from the start. It was a sign that he wasn't wholly confident.
Hagler made consessions on the Gloves as well and although noone else usually mentions it I have always been puzzeled by the fact that Hagler came in at 157!... why so low?. Did he overtrain? or was there perhaps even some deal done between Hagler and Leonard about the weight... just as later on Lalonde made a simular deal?. I've always been suspicious of this.
As for the distance I actually think Leonard seemed the stronger in the 12th round but certainly a 15 rounder would have been more conclusive... I've always hated 12 rounders.
12 rounders were picked up on because they fit nicely into 1 hour segments for TV and allow for 12 mins of adverts.

[Ezzard]

I know hagler was a religious fitness fanatic but 157 for a man who always looked big at the weight is surprising. Marvin has never been one for excuses but I think someone would have mentioend one of these catch weight agreements. Wasn't Hearns in the second fight committed contractually to coming in under a certain weight or else lose money???

Hagler may have overtrained.

Leonard seemed to switch between exhaustion and summoning up the strength to land quick bursts of punches. The thing is could he have coped knwoing that there was another 3 rounds to go? By the 10th he looked to be trying to fight for 30 secs to 1 minute per round. could he have gone to 15? i mean it's one thing knowing you've only got 2 rounds to go but menatlly much different knwoing you've still got 5.

[silkov]

I know hagler was a religious fitness fanatic but 157 for a man who always looked big at the weight is surprising. Marvin has never been one for excuses but I think someone would have mentioend one of these catch weight agreements. Wasn't Hearns in the second fight committed contractually to coming in under a certain weight or else lose money???

Hagler may have overtrained.

Leonard seemed to switch between exhaustion and summoning up the strength to land quick bursts of punches. The thing is could he have coped knwoing that there was another 3 rounds to go? By the 10th he looked to be trying to fight for 30 secs to 1 minute per round. could he have gone to 15? i mean it's one thing knowing you've only got 2 rounds to go but menatlly much different knwoing you've still got 5.

Well thats it, 12 rounds is one thing while 15 is another!... which is why Ray wanted it to be over 12. Also though Hagler was tired in the 12th had the fight gone longer he may have got his second wind.
I know that the Petronelli brothers who trained Hagler fell out after the Leonard bout and I've always thought its because all of the concessions they agreed to and allowed Marvin to agree to.
Regarding the weight, maybe there were more concessions than we know about!. This maybe another reason why Hagler is still bitter about the loss... which he is sadly.
In a way it was the worst end for Hagler as for some it nulified a lot of what he'd acheived. Personally I don't think Ray would have beaten the pre'85 Hagler though....

[wlvrne]

Didn't Oscar DLH fight Trinidad and Mosley the same way, yet he lost to them both?
In the case of Hagler/Leonard, I think it was a case of favoritism for Leonard on the part of the judges.

Well thats why many people disagreed with the verdicts in the Delahoya fights. I definately thought he did enough to beat Shane in the second fight.

And this is also why many fans disagree with you and have Hagler winning this fight.

[Ezzard]

I know hagler was a religious fitness fanatic but 157 for a man who always looked big at the weight is surprising. Marvin has never been one for excuses but I think someone would have mentioend one of these catch weight agreements. Wasn't Hearns in the second fight committed contractually to coming in under a certain weight or else lose money???

Hagler may have overtrained.

Leonard seemed to switch between exhaustion and summoning up the strength to land quick bursts of punches. The thing is could he have coped knwoing that there was another 3 rounds to go? By the 10th he looked to be trying to fight for 30 secs to 1 minute per round. could he have gone to 15? i mean it's one thing knowing you've only got 2 rounds to go but menatlly much different knwoing you've still got 5.

Well thats it, 12 rounds is one thing while 15 is another!... which is why Ray wanted it to be over 12. Also though Hagler was tired in the 12th had the fight gone longer he may have got his second wind.
I know that the Petronelli brothers who trained Hagler fell out after the Leonard bout and I've always thought its because all of the concessions they agreed to and allowed Marvin to agree to.
Regarding the weight, maybe there were more concessions than we know about!. This maybe another reason why Hagler is still bitter about the loss... which he is sadly.
In a way it was the worst end for Hagler as for some it nulified a lot of what he'd acheived. Personally I don't think Ray would have beaten the pre'85 Hagler though....

I didn't know that they fell out. It's intriguing. In a way though Hagler left the sport relatively unscathed. He would have pushed for Monzon's record and maybe eventually taken a beating.

A lot of people see Marvin as the man who dismantled Hearns and crushed Mugabi. I'm not so sure that those fights really encapsulate Hagler. in his earlier defences he was much more of a methodical boxer. And, like I have said in previous posts, he always looked so much bigger than many of his opponents. Against Minter and sibson it looks like super middle in with a middle.

[silkov]

I know hagler was a religious fitness fanatic but 157 for a man who always looked big at the weight is surprising. Marvin has never been one for excuses but I think someone would have mentioend one of these catch weight agreements. Wasn't Hearns in the second fight committed contractually to coming in under a certain weight or else lose money???

Hagler may have overtrained.

Leonard seemed to switch between exhaustion and summoning up the strength to land quick bursts of punches. The thing is could he have coped knwoing that there was another 3 rounds to go? By the 10th he looked to be trying to fight for 30 secs to 1 minute per round. could he have gone to 15? i mean it's one thing knowing you've only got 2 rounds to go but menatlly much different knwoing you've still got 5.

Well thats it, 12 rounds is one thing while 15 is another!... which is why Ray wanted it to be over 12. Also though Hagler was tired in the 12th had the fight gone longer he may have got his second wind.
I know that the Petronelli brothers who trained Hagler fell out after the Leonard bout and I've always thought its because all of the concessions they agreed to and allowed Marvin to agree to.
Regarding the weight, maybe there were more concessions than we know about!. This maybe another reason why Hagler is still bitter about the loss... which he is sadly.
In a way it was the worst end for Hagler as for some it nulified a lot of what he'd acheived. Personally I don't think Ray would have beaten the pre'85 Hagler though....

I didn't know that they fell out. It's intriguing. In a way though Hagler left the sport relatively unscathed. He would have pushed for Monzon's record and maybe eventually taken a beating.

A lot of people see Marvin as the man who dismantled Hearns and crushed Mugabi. I'm not so sure that those fights really encapsulate Hagler. in his earlier defences he was much more of a methodical boxer. And, like I have said in previous posts, he always looked so much bigger than many of his opponents. Against Minter and sibson it looks like super middle in with a middle.

Hagler wasn't really that big... only about 5 feet 9 I think but he looked bigger because of his presence and his physical development. Its interesting if you get hold of a late 70s fight of Hagler you'll see that his physique is not as developed as it was later on. Haglers peak was probably 80- to -83 really.... he was so sharp at that time.

[Ambling Alp]

Had their been a rematch it could have been interesting. Hagler made two big mistakes that he probably wouldn't make in a rematch. First of all, he blew the first 4 rounds in the fight. He got far behind and couldn't quite come back. Secondly, he should have fought more as a southpaw. He had more success in the first fight doing that but didn't do it enough.

Of course it's possible that Leonard would being ready for this and win anyway, but we will never know. The rematch could have been great, but it also very well could have been anti-climatic.

As for the first fight, as mentioned before Hagler did very little in the first four rounds. To win the fight by decison he would have had to win 7 of the last 8 rounds, which he wasn't able to do.
I think that one reason that many people feel Hagler won is that he came on strong at the end but they forget that Leonard won the early part of the fight.
There is also the anti-Leonard element who think that he can't be as a hard of puncher because he doesn't look as tough as Hagler. The fact is he hit Hagler with a lot of clean punches and even backed up Hagler which rarely happened to Marvin.

[BoxBuzz]

Good read, nice contributions all. I'm convinced we would not have seen a different outcome. Marvin stayed out for a reason. He perhaps lost his confidence and felt it was time to call it a career. I think he had little if anything left to prove.

[dws]

I am always amazed at how slow Hagler looked in the Leonard fight,I basically saw all his fights from his first match with Antuofermo on and was used to something different,even Leonard said he saw how Hagler was slowing down and that's why he came back.I still think Leonard would have beat him if they had fought earlier.Leonard is hated but the guy was great,so was Marvin,but Leonard was the better fighter.Leonard is hurt by his premature retirement,his on and off again career,his dictating to opponents,and the fact that he's an arrogant jerk,but the guy gave us some memorable fights,and I'm no Leonard fan,I never could stand him.

[Seamus]

Few boxers in memory seem to generate more controversy than Sugar Ray Leonard. So with that in mind, I'll help to stir things up even more.

I certainly won't try to speak for everyone, but prior to the fight in 87, I can't remember one person who was said that Hagler was slipping, or was concerned about the ring size, gloves or the 12 round distance instead of 15. Marvin Hagler (in most peoples minds) was still pfp the baddest man on the planet, and he was going to flat out destroy Sugar Ray Leonard (I thought so too) Yet after Leonard won the split decision, for every person I heard praising Leonard for his amazing performance, I think I probably heard two who were complaining about how Leonard stole the fight, conned the judges etc. And what were the excuses ? "If you watch the fight under a microscope you'll see that Hagler really won" (OK I'm exaggerating a little, but when making an analogy you sometimes have to) Or, "Leonard through soft punches all through the fight" Really ! Maybe since Leonard wasn't knocked down or hurt in the fight either, perhaps the punches Hagler landed were soft as well.

Sorry, and I don't mean to denigrate Marvin Hagler who I consider one of the greatest middleweights ever, in any way, but I just find it hilarious that there are still so many sore losers who complained about anything Leonard did in the ring. His tactics were designed so that he wins, NOT his opponent. And, he knew how to beat an opponent mentally as well as physically. Believe it or not, my best friend at the time (and I'll bet he wasen't the only one) became disgusted, when in the 2nd round I believe, Leonard measured Hagler a few times. I thought it was brilliant ! Hagler's the acknowledged Baddest man on the planet at 160 supposed to destroy Leonard, and Ray tells him by his actions "I think you're a bum". For some reason, fighters who have good defensive skills often seem to irritate opponents and fans alike. Alot of people disrespect Leonard because he refused to play Toughman contest, which to me (the Americans will understand) is like hating Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez for not throwing a pitch right where your favorite batter can hit it.

[Syntax Error]

Few boxers in memory seem to generate more controversy than Sugar Ray Leonard. So with that in mind, I'll help to stir things up even more.

I certainly won't try to speak for everyone, but prior to the fight in 87, I can't remember one person who was said that Hagler was slipping, or was concerned about the ring size, gloves or the 12 round distance instead of 15. Marvin Hagler (in most peoples minds) was still pfp the baddest man on the planet, and he was going to flat out destroy Sugar Ray Leonard (I thought so too) Yet after Leonard won the split decision, for every person I heard praising Leonard for his amazing performance, I think I probably heard two who were complaining about how Leonard stole the fight, conned the judges etc. And what were the excuses ? "If you watch the fight under a microscope you'll see that Hagler really won" (OK I'm exaggerating a little, but when making an analogy you sometimes have to) Or, "Leonard through soft punches all through the fight" Really ! Maybe since Leonard wasn't knocked down or hurt in the fight either, perhaps the punches Hagler landed were soft as well.

Sorry, and I don't mean to denigrate Marvin Hagler who I consider one of the greatest middleweights ever, in any way, but I just find it hilarious that there are still so many sore losers who complained about anything Leonard did in the ring. His tactics were designed so that he wins, NOT his opponent. And, he knew how to beat an opponent mentally as well as physically. Believe it or not, my best friend at the time (and I'll bet he wasen't the only one) became disgusted, when in the 2nd round I believe, Leonard measured Hagler a few times. I thought it was brilliant ! Hagler's the acknowledged Baddest man on the planet at 160 supposed to destroy Leonard, and Ray tells him by his actions "I think you're a bum". For some reason, fighters who have good defensive skills often seem to irritate opponents and fans alike. Alot of people disrespect Leonard because he refused to play Toughman contest, which to me (the Americans will understand) is like hating Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez for not throwing a pitch right where your favorite batter can hit it.

Excellent post.

Never a truer word said.

[silkov]

Few boxers in memory seem to generate more controversy than Sugar Ray Leonard. So with that in mind, I'll help to stir things up even more.

I certainly won't try to speak for everyone, but prior to the fight in 87, I can't remember one person who was said that Hagler was slipping, or was concerned about the ring size, gloves or the 12 round distance instead of 15. Marvin Hagler (in most peoples minds) was still pfp the baddest man on the planet, and he was going to flat out destroy Sugar Ray Leonard (I thought so too) Yet after Leonard won the split decision, for every person I heard praising Leonard for his amazing performance, I think I probably heard two who were complaining about how Leonard stole the fight, conned the judges etc. And what were the excuses ? "If you watch the fight under a microscope you'll see that Hagler really won" (OK I'm exaggerating a little, but when making an analogy you sometimes have to) Or, "Leonard through soft punches all through the fight" Really ! Maybe since Leonard wasn't knocked down or hurt in the fight either, perhaps the punches Hagler landed were soft as well.

Sorry, and I don't mean to denigrate Marvin Hagler who I consider one of the greatest middleweights ever, in any way, but I just find it hilarious that there are still so many sore losers who complained about anything Leonard did in the ring. His tactics were designed so that he wins, NOT his opponent. And, he knew how to beat an opponent mentally as well as physically. Believe it or not, my best friend at the time (and I'll bet he wasen't the only one) became disgusted, when in the 2nd round I believe, Leonard measured Hagler a few times. I thought it was brilliant ! Hagler's the acknowledged Baddest man on the planet at 160 supposed to destroy Leonard, and Ray tells him by his actions "I think you're a bum". For some reason, fighters who have good defensive skills often seem to irritate opponents and fans alike. Alot of people disrespect Leonard because he refused to play Toughman contest, which to me (the Americans will understand) is like hating Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez for not throwing a pitch right where your favorite batter can hit it.

Well the way I see it Hagler definately had slowed down going into the Leonard fight and this was one of the main reasons for Leonard talking the fight. Having said that and despite the various causes and agreements it was still a great performance by Leonard to beat Hagler and I do think he won quite clearly.
Its a shame really that Leonards latter career posturing has tainted the fact that he was undoubedly a great fighter.