10 british heavyweights of all time

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Oct 2005, 19:59

what are ur top 10 of all time???

1. lennox lewis
2. bob fitzsimmons
3. frank bruno
4. henry cooper
5.Tommy farr
6. Don Cockell
7. Joe Bugner
8. Len Harvey
9. Bruce Woodcock
10. Joe Erkstine

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 27 Oct 2005, 20:06

Good list................ still pretty dire on a world level though. No doubt there will be a few revisionists here who will tell me that with a few "ifs" and half a dozen "buts" Don Cockell would have been an all time great and that Tommy Farr should have got the nod over Louis and if he had he'd have made 25 defences of the title easily.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 27 Oct 2005, 20:38

Herbie Hide is WAY too high.

Herbie has been managed well, 2 world title fights one against Michael Bentt and the other vs Tony "Past it" Tucker. Neither of whom were close to being world class at that stage of their careers.

He got the British title vs Michael "The Journeyman" Murray, never beat a top domestic name or anything close to a world class fighter.

I'd have Danny ahead of him based on him beating a few decent domestic opponents and one or two fighters that compare to Michael Bent (Meehan) and Tucker (Tyson).

I'd be even tempted to have Francis above Hide.

Certainly Akinwande, if you count him.

kevin · Post by **kevin** » 27 Oct 2005, 21:40

We did a post war British Heavyweight poll at BBN a while back

http://www.britishboxing.net/?page=news&id=465

About time we did another at a different weight

Kev

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 28 Oct 2005, 02:59

bob fitzsimmons isn't really british, he left these shores when he was very young and unlike lennox lewis never said he was british, more likely he'd of called himself a New Zealander.

Bit subjective i know.

BTW my top 10

1) Lewis
2) Bruno
3) Bugner
4) Cooper
5) Farr
6) Woodcock
7) Harvey
8) Cockell
9) Hide
10) Mason

Bit hard when you get to the bottom of the list, so many fighters i would put on par.

KMcRae1 · Post by **KMcRae1** » 28 Oct 2005, 03:55

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:what are ur top 10 of all time???

1. lennox lewis
2. bob fitzsimmons
3. frank bruno
4. henry cooper
5.Tommy farr
6. Don Cockell
7. Herbie hide
8. Joe Bugner
9. Len Harvey
10. Bruce woodcock

Pretty good. But it's amazing the dropoff from the top two on the list as you get down even to number three in Frank Bruno. Herbie Hide doesn't belong though but to be honest I'm having a difficult time finding many people to replace him

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 28 Oct 2005, 07:43

What about Joe Erskine? I'd have included him somewhere around 7-9 position....

J

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 28 Oct 2005, 07:45

john2345 wrote:What about Joe Erskine? I'd have included him somewhere around 7-9 position....

J

Yes, BBN had him at 9, John.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Oct 2005, 07:56

topper123 wrote:bob fitzsimmons isn't really british, he left these shores when he was very young and unlike lennox lewis never said he was british, more likely he'd of called himself a New Zealander.

Bit subjective i know.

BTW my top 10

1) Lewis
2) Bruno
3) Bugner
4) Cooper
5) Farr
6) Woodcock
7) Harvey
8) Cockell
9) Hide
10) Mason

Bit hard when you get to the bottom of the list, so many fighters i would put on par.

Thats a good list,

Mine would be slightly different but only slightly

1) Lewis,
2) Cooper
3) Bruno
4) Farr
5) Bugner
6) Woodcock
7) Cockell
8) Erskine
9) Bodell
10) Richardson.

8-9-10 could have had fighters like London, Johnny Williams, Danny Williams, Peterson, Len Harvey (although more of a light heavy), Gary Mason.

If Henry Akinwande and Bob Fitzsimmons are included then both deserve to be in the top 10. I'd have Fitzsimmons in 2 and Akinwande snuggled between Farr and Bugner.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 28 Oct 2005, 08:08

trouble with alot of these lists is the fact that its hard to rate someone off of a few old films, Farr, Woodcok, harvey etc

JC · Post by JC » 28 Oct 2005, 15:35

topper123 wrote:bob fitzsimmons isn't really british, he left these shores when he was very young and unlike lennox lewis never said he was british, more likely he'd of called himself a New Zealander.

Actually I think he considered himself Cornish before anything else, but I agree he probably shouldn't be counted as British, which I hate to say because I wish he was!

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 28 Oct 2005, 15:52

J-C wrote:
topper123 wrote:bob fitzsimmons isn't really british, he left these shores when he was very young and unlike lennox lewis never said he was british, more likely he'd of called himself a New Zealander.
Actually I think he considered himself Cornish before anything else, but I agree he probably shouldn't be counted as British, which I hate to say because I wish he was!

in those days it was quite common for people to be born outside of britain and still consider themselves british, for example rudyard kipling and eric blair (george orwell) were born in india and malaya respectively, it was an empire thing so i`d hazard a guess that bob having been born in cornwall and taking into account the customs of the time he would have considered himself british.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 28 Oct 2005, 16:04

Bugner should be miles higher generally... can you imagine Herbie Hide going the distance with Joe Frazier, Ali, Ron Lyle... or even a 37 year old Cooper?... I think not!. For me Hide is a joke, he was never beaten anyone whose had any life left in them. Not one.
My list is....

Bob Fitzsimmons (as British as Lewis is)
Joe Bugner
Tommy Farr
Lennox Lewis
Frank Bruno
Henry Cooper
Bruce Woodcock
Don Cockell
Brian London
Horace Notice
Joe Beckett
John L Gardner
David Pearce

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 28 Oct 2005, 16:15

silkov wrote:Bugner should be miles higher generally... can you imagine Herbie Hide going the distance with Joe Frazier, Ali, Ron Lyle... or even a 37 year old Cooper?... I think not!. For me Hide is a joke, he was never beaten anyone whose had any life left in them. Not one.
My list is....

Bob Fitzsimmons (as British as Lewis is)
Joe Bugner
Tommy Farr
Lennox Lewis
Frank Bruno
Henry Cooper
Bruce Woodcock
Don Cockell
Brian London
Horace Notice
Joe Beckett
John L Gardner
David Pearce

you`re right fitzsimmons is as british as lewis and even bugner was born in hungary so if we get too picky about nationality we`ll have no one left.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 28 Oct 2005, 16:20

headhunter wrote:
silkov wrote:Bugner should be miles higher generally... can you imagine Herbie Hide going the distance with Joe Frazier, Ali, Ron Lyle... or even a 37 year old Cooper?... I think not!. For me Hide is a joke, he was never beaten anyone whose had any life left in them. Not one.
My list is....

Bob Fitzsimmons (as British as Lewis is)
Joe Bugner
Tommy Farr
Lennox Lewis
Frank Bruno
Henry Cooper
Bruce Woodcock
Don Cockell
Brian London
Horace Notice
Joe Beckett
John L Gardner
David Pearce
you`re right fitzsimmons is as british as lewis and even bugner was born in hungary so if we get too picky about nationality we`ll have no one left.

Yeah, you could argue that Bugner was the least British out of him Lewis and Fitz... except that he was brought up here.
Perhaps if Joe had been born here and brought up in Hungary he would have won the worild title!!!.......

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 28 Oct 2005, 19:04

topper123 wrote:bob fitzsimmons isn't really british, he left these shores when he was very young and unlike lennox lewis never said he was british, more likely he'd of called himself a New Zealander.

Bit subjective i know.

BTW my top 10

1) Lewis
2) Bruno
3) Bugner
4) Cooper
5) Farr
6) Woodcock
7) Harvey
8) Cockell
9) Hide
10) Mason

Bit hard when you get to the bottom of the list, so many fighters i would put on par.

Bob I heard mostly called himself Cornish.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 29 Oct 2005, 03:36

Bob Fitzsimmons has a statue of himself in Timaru, New Zealand. Which is where he lived , Visited it when i was travelling round New Zealand, very impressive life size statue,

http://www.fitzsimmons.co.nz/images/timarustatue.jpg

also found this old training schedule of Fitzsimmons

6.30am - Rises, bathes, dresses.
7.00 - Sherry and egg
7.05 to 8.15 - Rides on bicycle (15 Miles)
8.15 - Breakfast
9.30 - Goes 15 miles afoot
11.30 - Has rubdown and rests
1.00pm - Dinner
3.00 - Works in gymnasium
5.00 - Showerbath and rubdown
6.00 - Supper
8.00,9.00,10.00,11.00 - Bed

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Oct 2005, 05:47

mercman wrote:We rarely saw what Bugner could do. He was a reluctant fighter. On the odd occasion he got charged up he was really good. Watch him demolish Richard Dunn and go toe to toe with Joe Frazier. I agree with Silkov, Bugner generally should be rated far higher. He was technically good, big, powerful, very durable, could punch, had a good jab and an excellent defence. Apart from Lewis I don't see a better British Heavyweight.

Regarding his 'Britishness' as well as being from Hungary I believe Bugner is now an Australian citizen. Not many can claim to have had three nationalities! And I think he also lived in USA for a time too. An interesting character, he has led a full and varied life. Good luck to him I say.

I'd put Bugner above Lewis... I don't see Lewis going the distance against Ali and Frazier like Bugner did. Bugner really gave it a go in his first fight with Ali in the rematch for the title he got a lot of stick but few people realise the tempretures they fought in. After that fight Ali was hospitalised with dehydraytion.
I've always thought that Bugs 'reluctance' to fight at times could well be connected to the death of an opponent very early in his career. I'm pretty sure he pulled his punches at times and he was prone to letting a opponent off the hook when they were hurt. Also the antipathy which he recieved after beating Cooper couldn't have helped and he had to put up with Henry making rather snide remarks against him for the next 6 years or so in Boxing News. I like Cooper but he did play the Bugner bout for all it was worth rather than taking the defeat in good spirit. Shame there wasn't a rematch.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 29 Oct 2005, 05:59

silkov wrote:
I'd put Bugner above Lewis... I don't see Lewis going the distance against Ali and Frazier like Bugner did. Bugner really gave it a go in his first fight with Ali in the rematch for the title he got a lot of stick but few people realise the tempretures they fought in. After that fight Ali was hospitalised with dehydraytion.
I've always thought that Bugs 'reluctance' to fight at times could well be connected to the death of an opponent very early in his career. I'm pretty sure he pulled his punches at times and he was prone to letting a opponent off the hook when they were hurt. Also the antipathy which he recieved after beating Cooper couldn't have helped and he had to put up with Henry making rather snide remarks against him for the next 6 years or so in Boxing News. I like Cooper but he did play the Bugner bout for all it was worth rather than taking the defeat in good spirit. Shame there wasn't a rematch.

Bugner over Lewis, where do you get your rose tinted glasses from Silkov

Bugner was a world class boxer, who should have acheived more than he did, but that was his problem, he didn't acheive the top title. He could of, should of, but ultimatly he didn't. don't forget that this is the same Bugner that lost to Marvis Frazier and Steffen Tangstad.

Lewis did acheive, he won the world title and defended it many times.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Oct 2005, 06:06

topper123 wrote:
silkov wrote:
I'd put Bugner above Lewis... I don't see Lewis going the distance against Ali and Frazier like Bugner did. Bugner really gave it a go in his first fight with Ali in the rematch for the title he got a lot of stick but few people realise the tempretures they fought in. After that fight Ali was hospitalised with dehydraytion.
I've always thought that Bugs 'reluctance' to fight at times could well be connected to the death of an opponent very early in his career. I'm pretty sure he pulled his punches at times and he was prone to letting a opponent off the hook when they were hurt. Also the antipathy which he recieved after beating Cooper couldn't have helped and he had to put up with Henry making rather snide remarks against him for the next 6 years or so in Boxing News. I like Cooper but he did play the Bugner bout for all it was worth rather than taking the defeat in good spirit. Shame there wasn't a rematch.
Bugner over Lewis, where do you get your rose tinted glasses from Silkov

Bugner was a world class boxer, who should have acheived more than he did, but that was his problem, he didn't acheive the top title. He could of, should of, but ultimatly he didn't. don't forget that this is the same Bugner that lost to Marvis Frazier and Steffen Tangstad.

Lewis did acheive, he won the world title and defended it many times.

Yeah but I'm thinking about them at their peaks. For me Bugner was definately the better all round boxer. Faster, better balance, better chin (by quite a way). I ask again, can you imagaine Lewis going the distance against Ali, Frazier, Lyle?.... I can't. Had Bugner been around in the same era as Lewis (in his prime) I've little doubt that he'd have won the world title. Lewis won the 'world title' in spurious circumstances and much of his opposition was mediocre at best and the best fighters he fought were pretty much shot when they fought him.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 29 Oct 2005, 06:32

Bugner did have a very good chin, and good skills.
As for Ali and Frazier against lewis, Ali could beat any fighter on a given day, so its almost impossible to pick against him.
Frazier would have given Lewis a nightmare , as long as he didn't get caught by one of lewis's big punches, as happened when he fought big George Foreman.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Oct 2005, 10:04

Yes I remember too when he koed Winstone Allen with one punch after Allen had butted him. Bugs always been quite a complicated guy it seems, while he's a good talker out of the ring I've noticed that he's never really talked about his private life or childhood in much detail and this is possibly why he's never gone for the biography bit.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Oct 2005, 15:03

Bugner had all the physical tools to be a world champion, but he lacked one key component, desire. He had a great chance against a fading Ali to press the old champ, but he turned in a very negative performance.

To rate Bugner ahead of Ludicrous. Bugner might have gotten hold of a belt, but he wouldn't have been the dominant heavyweight in ANY era, he just didn't want it enough, and for all his physical prowess he lacked the aggression to truly dominate the best fighters.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Oct 2005, 16:32

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Bugner had all the physical tools to be a world champion, but he lacked one key component, desire. He had a great chance against a fading Ali to press the old champ, but he turned in a very negative performance.

To rate Bugner ahead of Ludicrous. Bugner might have gotten hold of a belt, but he wouldn't have been the dominant heavyweight in ANY era, he just didn't want it enough, and for all his physical prowess he lacked the aggression to truly dominate the best fighters.

I wouldn't call getting koed twice by ordinary fighters being 'truly dominating'. People are often saying Lewis was a 'truly dominant' champion, but he wasn't, he fought a long string of mostly rather mediocre opponents and got koed twice and he only finally fought his main rivals when they were both already both well past their best.
Lennox's 'domination' is a myth, much like him being better than Ali!... don't make me laugh!.
As for Bugners fight with Ali for the world title he has always said that he was hampered by the intense heat and had he gone on the offensive he would probably have been stopped. He was never going to outslug Ali, his game plan would have been to try and outbox Ali but Ali was simply the stronger man in the heat. Losing to Ali even in '76 is hardly a disgrace I've seen the fight and Bugners performance is not half as bad as people have made out. Its not like he quit in his corner or laid down...

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Oct 2005, 21:19

Wasn't Bugner not mentally there after one of his opponents dying after the fight?

10 british heavyweights of all time

10 british heavyweights of all time

Re: 10 british heavyweights of all time