James Toney vs Marvin Hagler 160 lbs

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 31 Oct 2005, 03:39

Had these 2 squared off in their primes,who would win? Both fighters are versatile,can adapt to just about any style,& have good chins.I think Toney would have the edge in speed,Hagler in power.I think Hagler's superb conditioning would lead him to a victory,probably by decision.
zuru

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 31 Oct 2005, 05:12

A great fantasy match and think the vast majority would go for Hagler. I would not for two reasons, one is defense as I see James having the better in this dept, and the other is speed, Toney also in this department. Both guys at their peak are pretty even in stamina, workrate, power and Chins, Hagler maybe a litle steelier in the chin Dept, but still Toney was solid there....Toney by UD, say 116-113......

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 31 Oct 2005, 09:09

Hagler was just to good. He was to solid in all categories to loose this fight if it had taken place. Plus he had an unbelievable will to win. Hagler by knockout.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 31 Oct 2005, 09:20

kick asner wrote:Hagler was just to good. He was to solid in all categories to loose this fight if it had taken place. Plus he had an unbelievable will to win. Hagler by knockout.

No way Hagler by KO.

He might win a decision. But this could go either way.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 31 Oct 2005, 09:34

No way a KO win for Marvin...Toney had a solid chin and was very good in all areas, plus he had the punch to hurt Marvin, at least to let Hagler know he was there. If a blown up inactive Ray could coast against Marvin, then the naturally bigger Toney has a definite chance. Fair enough Hagler may have been on the slide, but he was still only 32. Hagler was also very inconsistent, for gods sake against Duran he was useless, a blown up Lightweight. But against Minter he looked brilliant. Both on their day, I'd still take Toney by decision. I think people underestimate Toney. He really looked awesome in beating Nunn, who was extremely talented and was close to his peak that night. James hung in there and pulled the win out of the bag with 3 -4rds of solid punching, then the KO.....

wlvrne · Post by **wlvrne** » 31 Oct 2005, 09:45

Hagler by decision 12, or 15 rounds. Hagler's more versatile and would have been able to figure out the puzzle of Toney and just out-box him.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 31 Oct 2005, 10:26

walshb wrote:No way a KO win for Marvin...Toney had a solid chin and was very good in all areas, plus he had the punch to hurt Marvin, at least to let Hagler know he was there. If a blown up inactive Ray could coast against Marvin, then the naturally bigger Toney has a definite chance. Fair enough Hagler may have been on the slide, but he was still only 32. Hagler was also very inconsistent, for gods sake against Duran he was useless, a blown up Lightweight. But against Minter he looked brilliant. Both on their day, I'd still take Toney by decision. I think people underestimate Toney. He really looked awesome in beating Nunn, who was extremely talented and was close to his peak that night. James hung in there and pulled the win out of the bag with 3 -4rds of solid punching, then the KO.....

Hagler had a lot of fights so like any fighter their were times he was not at his best. I agree he was out boxed by Leonard. But Ray Leonard was the greatest pound per pound fighter of his day, maybe of all time. If anyone wants to argue that I will do it on another thread since we are disscussing Hagler here. Duran and Leonard both had the build and height to be middleweights espescesialy Leonard so I don't rate that as much of a factor. I thought that Hagler's win over Hearns was a better win than Toney over Nunn. If you were to apply the same criteria for inconsistency to Toney as Hagler you could also say Toney was inconsistent but you said if they were both at their best. If they were at their best I still say Hagler. The reason I say Hagler by knockout is because he always went for the knockout.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 31 Oct 2005, 10:44

walshb wrote:No way a KO win for Marvin...Toney had a solid chin and was very good in all areas, plus he had the punch to hurt Marvin, at least to let Hagler know he was there. If a blown up inactive Ray could coast against Marvin, then the naturally bigger Toney has a definite chance. Fair enough Hagler may have been on the slide, but he was still only 32. Hagler was also very inconsistent, for gods sake against Duran he was useless, a blown up Lightweight. But against Minter he looked brilliant. Both on their day, I'd still take Toney by decision. I think people underestimate Toney. He really looked awesome in beating Nunn, who was extremely talented and was close to his peak that night. James hung in there and pulled the win out of the bag with 3 -4rds of solid punching, then the KO.....

Are you serious? How can you dispute the abilities of Leonard and Duran?
Have you ever seen them box? In Hagler, Duran and Leonard you have 3 of the best boxers of all time. Duran and Leonard won world titles at several different weights and this at a time when the lightweight -middleweight divisions were arguably in their best era ever. By the way I still think Hagler won the Leonard fight.

wlvrne · Post by **wlvrne** » 31 Oct 2005, 11:40

Arsenal wrote:
walshb wrote:No way a KO win for Marvin...Toney had a solid chin and was very good in all areas, plus he had the punch to hurt Marvin, at least to let Hagler know he was there. If a blown up inactive Ray could coast against Marvin, then the naturally bigger Toney has a definite chance. Fair enough Hagler may have been on the slide, but he was still only 32. Hagler was also very inconsistent, for gods sake against Duran he was useless, a blown up Lightweight. But against Minter he looked brilliant. Both on their day, I'd still take Toney by decision. I think people underestimate Toney. He really looked awesome in beating Nunn, who was extremely talented and was close to his peak that night. James hung in there and pulled the win out of the bag with 3 -4rds of solid punching, then the KO.....
Are you serious? How can you dispute the abilities of Leonard and Duran?
Have you ever seen them box? In Hagler, Duran and Leonard you have 3 of the best boxers of all time. Duran and Leonard won world titles at several different weights and this at a time when the lightweight -middleweight divisions were arguably in their best era ever. By the way I still think Hagler won the Leonard fight.

I agree with Arsenal, in that Hagler got robbed in the Leonard fight. Too many fans, the judges included, were "awed" by all the shoe-shine punches Leonard was throwing, then running away.
Oscar fought much the same way against Trinidad, and he lost on the score cards. Same style of fights, different results.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 31 Oct 2005, 11:54

Hagler TKO 10 james toney- have u seen the peak hagler? watch
hagler-sibson, hagler-minter, hagler-hamsho I, hagler-antuefermo II
hagler-monroe III

- hes in a entire different class than toney. hes can outbox and outslug toney, toney doesnt have n edge in any areas

- michael nunn was outboxing and dominating toney and hes not nearly as good as hagler

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 31 Oct 2005, 12:00

I don't think the guy ever watched Hagler to say Tony would beat him. By the way look at the scorecards for his fight with Leonard on this site. 2 Judges 115-113 for each fighter then the other judge has it 118-110 Leonard! If thats not corrupt I don't know what is. In that fight a round scored 10-9 by both judges to Hagler the other judge gave to Leonard. Leonard won the fight because everyone cheered every time he threw a punch. I liked both boxers so I am totally unbias but watch the fight like I have several times and tell me how Leonard won. The fight stats had Hagler winning everything.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 31 Oct 2005, 14:16

Arsenal wrote:I don't think the guy ever watched Hagler to say Tony would beat him. By the way look at the scorecards for his fight with Leonard on this site. 2 Judges 115-113 for each fighter then the other judge has it 118-110 Leonard! If thats not corrupt I don't know what is. In that fight a round scored 10-9 by both judges to Hagler the other judge gave to Leonard. Leonard won the fight because everyone cheered every time he threw a punch. I liked both boxers so I am totally unbias but watch the fight like I have several times and tell me how Leonard won. The fight stats had Hagler winning everything.

That's not correct about the punch stats. Leonard had the advantage there.Hagler blew the early rounds in that fight and got too far behind. Yes 118-110 was off, but Leonard deserved the decision.

As for Hagler-Toney, this a pretty easy fight to call. Hagler would win, it would just be a matter if it would go the distance or not.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 31 Oct 2005, 14:21

Is suppose it's how you score a punch. Leonards taps or Haglers more coventional punching. But I agree he would beat Toney. Would anyone say Toney is one of the greats either at a weight or P4P?

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 31 Oct 2005, 14:26

I think the punch stats came from more than one source but the ones I saw had Leonard winning although I thought Leonarnd had won before I saw any stats. I was generally dissopointed with Haglers performance that night. It looked like he was getting beat to the punch. He was sort of flat. Would have liked to have seen a rematch. Hagler always did well in rematches. Toney is no Leonard, so I think that one ends up all Hagler.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 31 Oct 2005, 14:30

Yeah I agree. Hagler was flat. He always won the rematch. Just goes to show he was a great champion. He went away trained even harder, determined not to lose, worked out his oppenent and came back and won the rematch. I wonder why he never had a rematch with Leonard?

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 31 Oct 2005, 23:01

To me, any suggestion of Toney beating Hagler is laughable. I'm not saying Toney's a bum, but he had some close calls at MW against fighters Marvelous Marvin would have annihilated. Toney is at his best when the other guy comes right at him, but Hagler would be more than he ever bargained for. Hagler by a lopsided decision or by late stoppage.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 01 Nov 2005, 03:22

Look fellas, I'm not saying Hagler wasn't great, but to try say that the Hagler that Leonard beat was still good is ridiculous. He was deplorable that night, a real novice who walked around the ring with his head down throwing punches aimlessly. I still think to this day that maybe Marvin took a dive in that fight. I have watched it several times and it is glaringly obvious that Marvin's punches lacked any real snap or venom. Leonard was throwing bombs, but we all know that Marvin wasn't gonna' be KO'd by a natural Welter, great and all as Leonard was, there is no way that a natural monster of a middle should have lost to him. That Hagler looked dreadful and Duran wasn't close to being a middle and gave Marvin trouble. Hagler looked amateurish that night also....

wlvrne · Post by **wlvrne** » 01 Nov 2005, 10:59

Most of Leonard's punches were of the shoe-shine variety off Hagler's arms and shoulders. And the reason Hagler couldn't hit him was because Leonard ran all night.
Oscar fought much the same way against Trinidad, only DLH's punches were cleaner, and the judges felt he lost by staying away and avoiding to mix it up.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 01 Nov 2005, 13:58

A PRIME Hagler would've eaten Toney.

James was/is a very smart fighter, who knows when to rest against the ropes and counter brilliantly.

But Hagler wasn't friggin' Jirov or Barkely. Lying against the ropes landing your 1 or 2 counter-punches vs Hagler is gonna end up costing you spitting up blood. Hagler wasn't a shoe-shine head-hunter like Nunn . . .he KILLED the body and Toney has never liked body punches. Toney also wouldn't have a speed advanatge vs a prime Hagler as he did vs Barkley, Jirov, and the old McCallum. He would wear James down and TKO him late.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 01 Nov 2005, 22:04

walshb wrote:Look fellas, I'm not saying Hagler wasn't great, but to try say that the Hagler that Leonard beat was still good is ridiculous. He was deplorable that night, a real novice who walked around the ring with his head down throwing punches aimlessly. I still think to this day that maybe Marvin took a dive in that fight. I have watched it several times and it is glaringly obvious that Marvin's punches lacked any real snap or venom. Leonard was throwing bombs, but we all know that Marvin wasn't gonna' be KO'd by a natural Welter, great and all as Leonard was, there is no way that a natural monster of a middle should have lost to him. That Hagler looked dreadful and Duran wasn't close to being a middle and gave Marvin trouble. Hagler looked amateurish that night also....

Hagler was not at his best in either of those fights, but to say he was just some guy bumbling around the ring without a purpose is off the mark.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Aug 2006, 22:02

bump Marvins seems to be the "topic de jour" this one looked interesting

Am I a Marvin hater if I happen to think James Toney gives him all he can handle? However here again is a guy who is maybe naturally bigger and spent much time in higher weight classes. He would not knock him out but he might squeak a win past him. Could RJJ squeak by as well? I'm not as sure but he might have a shot I suppose.

Still the only guys I can think of that had a chance at a KO is still down to only two. Burley at MW which Decagon mentioned and Moore at a catchweight of super middle. And neither is much more than a 50/50 shot. That's the best I can do....speaks volumes about just how remarkable Hagler really was.

Marvin had a marble noggin. Thus the name the Marbelous one.

meade95 · Post by **meade95** » 19 Aug 2006, 23:50

Good match-up here -

I'm fairly confident a prime Hagler at 160 beats Toney by UD - In a good fight - But Toney could be out worked...and Hagler would do just that -

(regarding Hagler Vs Sugar Ray.......Hagler was past his prime on that night.....but I still believe Hagler deserved a Draw at worst on that night. Sugar Ray did not take the champions belt that night......his pitter-pat punches should not have been valued as they appeard on several of the judges cards). I had Hagler up 1 pt on my card....but a Draw could have been reasonable as well.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 20 Aug 2006, 00:10

You guys blow smoke about Hagler being a HOF fighter, greatest MW of all time, and all the BS....but when they throw in James Toney....a lot of you pick JT over Hagler. I think it would be a decent fight. Toney would counter punch the crap out of Marvin. I don't think Hagler could hit Toney decently. I pick Toney by UD, in their primes. Hagler was a plodder and could not hit ANYONE unless they stood right in front of him. Toney would not be in front of him, even though Toney fought flat footed many times, he can move his head and upper body. Hagler could not move anything. His only attrubute was a good chin, and he came in shape.

theone · Post by **theone** » 20 Aug 2006, 01:54

there are five things i'm absolutely certain about in this match:

1. If they both bring thier A- Game, it would be a classic.
2. Hagler would be frustrated by Toneys defense.
3. Toney would be confounded by Haglers tenaciousness.
4. Niether would be ko'd, or even come close to being so.
5. I have no idea who wins this one.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 20 Aug 2006, 01:57

Yeh right!!! Poor old blind Sugar Ray Seales is who you use as a measuring stick of Hagler's footwork ability. Laughable!!!

You Hagler guys are a good laugh.