Current world heavyweight scene - worst in history?

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 10 Nov 2005, 15:31

I don't like being a whinger but Santa Maria, the current crop of 'top' heavyweights must be one of the worst there's ever been.

Looking at the Boxrec ratings, I see Sam Peter is no 7 who was made to look ordinary by Wlad Klitschko, ffs!

I can think of no more damning indictment than this - I would give Matt Skelton a live chance of beating any of them.

And Audley Harrison could probably beat the lot.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 10 Nov 2005, 15:43

It's the worst in my living memory.

I thought the 80's (Tyson & Holmes excepted) was bad, but the guys in that era had great talent. Most of them just snorted it away in coke, allegedly or were too lazy to get into shape.

The current crop don't have any talent to snort away & even if they were to train harder than Evander Holyfield, they'd still be useless!

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 10 Nov 2005, 15:46

Syntax Error wrote:It's the worst in my living memory.

I thought the 80's (Tyson & Holmes excepted) was bad, but the guys in that era had great talent. Most of them just snorted away in coke, allegedly or were to lazy to get into shape.

The current crop don't have any talent to snort away & even if they were to train harder than Evander Holyfield, they'd still be useless!

'Tyson and Holmes excepted'

Two pretty significant exceptions there mate!!

I know what you mean though - however, Mike Dokes was a bloody good boxer, Witherspoon an incredible defensive talent...

We have no one really, though I do quite like Brewster.

Achybreaky · Post by **Achybreaky** » 10 Nov 2005, 16:44

THe heavyweight division is shocking, wladdy will clean up in the next year if king lets him near any of his flunkies.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 10 Nov 2005, 16:47

The HW division is the saddest in boxing. The biggest problem is that it is still the flagship division in boxing amongst casual fans. However, I'm sure anyone who posts here could make a case for Middleweight, Welterweight, Light Welter, Lightweight, and others. Sad though, as boxing will stay grounded as long as the HW division blows donkey dick.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 10 Nov 2005, 17:19

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
Syntax Error wrote:It's the worst in my living memory.

I thought the 80's (Tyson & Holmes excepted) was bad, but the guys in that era had great talent. Most of them just snorted away in coke, allegedly or were to lazy to get into shape.

The current crop don't have any talent to snort away & even if they were to train harder than Evander Holyfield, they'd still be useless!
'Tyson and Holmes excepted' Two pretty significant exceptions there mate!!

I know what you mean though - however, Mike Dokes was a bloody good boxer, Witherspoon an incredible defensive talent...

We have no one really, though I do quite like Brewster.

There's got to be a case made for it Ian, I was thinking about this today.

Vitali was most peoples pick for the best guy around before 'retiring' or 'sulking' as may be more the case.

Consider this. Vitali couldn't beat an overweight, puffed and ring rusty Lennox Lewis, and his achievements aside from that amount to beating a middle aged semi retired Sanders, the human slug Kirk Johnson, who trained in dunkin donuts, by making dumbells out of two donuts and an eclair, and mullering Danny Williams who was completely transfixed

You have to go some way back to find a worse era. The little bit between the eras of Ali and Holmes was pretty dire, but at least there were a lot of talented/genetically gifted fighters, Snipes, Dokes, Witherspoon, Weaver, Tate etc etc.

Further back, Marciano's era was pretty piss poor,

However, after Holmes lost to Spinks, it was looking pretty fornicating bleak, and along came Tyson to tear a new a-hole through the old cokeheads left in the division, so whose to say the next real heavyweight champ isn't around the corner.

There is however a terrible paucity of obvious talent coming through, and at the moment few heavyweights are engaging in meaningful contests.

We really were spoilt with Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Moorer, old man Foreman, Lewis et al all coming along in the same era.

Considering that Vitali couldn't even beat an ancient Lennox Lewis, who was in pretty terrible fighting fettle judging by the first few

Louis wasn't blessed with amazing levels of competition, but I dare say Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and Joe Walcott would have made fornicating mincemeat out of the current crop of also rans.

James Toney absolutely schooled Ruiz, something no other heavyweight has been able to do in recent years, but back in the 50's there were LOADS of fighters as accomplished as James Toney, it's from watching old tapes of these old masters and practicing their moves that has enabled him to be competitive in a division he isn't really genetically equipped to succeed in.

I think the problem lies in the fact that many modern heavyweights have little amateur pedigree, and little in the way of skills. Imagine if David Tua had Rocky Marciano's fighting brain and style....

You would have to go back to the period before Louis to find a worse one.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 10 Nov 2005, 19:19

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:I don't like being a whinger but Santa Maria, the current crop of 'top' heavyweights must be one of the worst there's ever been.

Looking at the Boxrec ratings, I see Sam Peter is no 7 who was made to look ordinary by Wlad Klitschko, ffs!

I can think of no more damning indictment than this - I would give Matt Skelton a live chance of beating any of them.

And Audley Harrison could probably beat the lot.

Ian,

It is the worst in history.

Its killing the game.

ABA Boxing · Post by **ABA Boxing** » 10 Nov 2005, 19:35

The title should be the worst time in USA heavyweight history

Not alot has changed for the rest of the World, its just the USA have not got a big name that they can call a real World Champion in the Heavyweights. I think if you look at the prospects in the US and then look at Europe you wont be seeing the Heavyweight Title leaving Europe for a long time, once they get hold of it.

I do think there will be a bunch of good Heavyweights coming from Eastern Europe over the next 5 years.

The problem its atleast 4 to 5 years for the likes of

Roberto Cammarelle, Jaroslav Jaksto, Viktor Zuyev, Alexander Alexeev & Sebastian Kober.

By the time they come on the World scene Povetkin will be the Champ a retierd Audley will have lost it to the European champ who will then go on to defend it against the future European Stars availible.

But before we get those to World Championship title shots its a good 5 years of ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 11 Nov 2005, 04:13

Every division has peaks and troughs, its the turn of the heavys this time.

I still think that although there isn't a dominant heavy out there you can still have some competitive matches with thwe like of Brewster, Rahman, Brock , Toney , Valuev, W. Klitschko and even Harrison

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 11 Nov 2005, 04:32

Good posts all.

I can't see anyone tearing up any trees out there Tyson style - ABA might be right in his observations, waiting and hoping for East European lads to come through might indeed take five years.

Jimbo's right of course and KOA makes a decent point. No one would give a monkey's if we were saying 'Bantamweights - worst ever division?', in fact a thread of this nature would never even be started as even we might not notice.

The sad fact is that much of the general public equate boxing with the heavy champ, as a Canadian journalist does on another thread.

James is hopefully correct about the next big thing being round the corner - everything is cyclical after all. Look at Kirk Johnson's waist for example.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 11 Nov 2005, 05:06

Even when you have a dominant Heavwieght championm, the contenders might not be up to much, Look at the heavys that were ranked when Holmes and Tyson were champions, there not much better than todays heavys.

We were lucky when Ali was at the top, you had any number of good fighters then.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 11 Nov 2005, 05:16

topper123 wrote:Even when you have a dominant Heavwieght championm, the contenders might not be up to much, Look at the heavys that were ranked when Holmes and Tyson were champions, there not much better than todays heavys.

We were lucky when Ali was at the top, you had any number of good fighters then.

Yes topper, but at least you HAD a dominant heavy champ. I suppose, perversely, the shit situation might make for some more competitive, low quality matches instead of all and sundry getting schooled or blown away by one man.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 11 Nov 2005, 05:41

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
topper123 wrote:Even when you have a dominant Heavwieght championm, the contenders might not be up to much, Look at the heavys that were ranked when Holmes and Tyson were champions, there not much better than todays heavys.

We were lucky when Ali was at the top, you had any number of good fighters then.
Yes topper, but at least you HAD a dominant heavy champ. I suppose, perversely, the shit situation might make for some more competitive, low quality matches instead of all and sundry getting schooled or blown away by one man.

yeah what happens when you have a Tyson as top man is none of the other contenders are willing to face each other because a loss will result in them missing out on a big payday for the title, so they just wait in line as the Top guy blasts out the other contenders, knowing they'll get a shot in the end.

At least we have the contenders fighting each other at the moment.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 11 Nov 2005, 05:42

But the title changing hands every 6 months does nothing for the sports profile. It needs a dominant champ, fighting regually, for everyone else to aim up at. In other eras people have mentioned there has always been at least one fighter who has stood out.

With the likes of Rahman (last era journeyman), Ruiz (beaten by 2 middleweights and blown out by Tua, one of the most boring of all time), Byrd (not close to being the fighter he was) as the top 3 belt holders I agree it's killing the sport. Time for some Europeans to start stepping up and trying to make it exciting again. If Kings tournament is going to bring us a Rahman v Ruiz rematch then he can stick it up his arse

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 11 Nov 2005, 05:57

Yep, worst in living memory I'm afraid - the thought of a DK unification series leaves me cold.

Let's pray there's a young African prospect lurking out there somewhere - and I don't mean Sam Peter - for awhile it's been reckoned African will eventualy produce a heavyweight saviour, and he's been a long time coming.

Ike looked the goods, pity he turned out to be a fruitcake. Though no doubt some honourable lawyer somewhere is on getting him out soon.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 11 Nov 2005, 07:29

And whats also worrying is that the `future` champs are old also.

What is it with the heavyweight division, no other division would allow such mediocre boxers to get anywhere near the top.

The top domestic 140lb fighters have more skill and heart than almost all the top 10 heavies..perhaps they too should put on 5-6stone

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 11 Nov 2005, 07:57

Keep cool guys, we just have the worst US heavyweight scene of all times!

That doesn´t make the whole scene weak.

We have never had such a lot of good europeans who could become champs: Wladi, Valuev, Sam, Krasniqi, Gomez and maybe Harrison. Plus other non-US-fighters like Peter or Tua. Regarding the talents we have Dimitrenko, Chagaev, Huck, Greenberg. and Povetkin. The USA have zero.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 11 Nov 2005, 08:22

BubiScholz wrote:Keep cool guys, we just have the worst US heavyweight scene of all times! That doesn´t make the whole scene weak.

We have never had such a lot of good europeans who could become champs: Wladi, Valuev, Sam, Krasniqi, Gomez and maybe Harrison. Plus other non-US-fighters like Peter or Tua. Regarding the talents we have Dimitrenko, Chagaev, Huck, Greenberg. and Povetkin. The USA have zero.

Couldn't comment so much on your list of newish talent but Wlad, Valuev, Sam, Krasniqi, Gomez, Peter and Tua are all poor.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 11 Nov 2005, 10:06

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
BubiScholz wrote:Keep cool guys, we just have the worst US heavyweight scene of all times! That doesn´t make the whole scene weak.

We have never had such a lot of good europeans who could become champs: Wladi, Valuev, Sam, Krasniqi, Gomez and maybe Harrison. Plus other non-US-fighters like Peter or Tua. Regarding the talents we have Dimitrenko, Chagaev, Huck, Greenberg. and Povetkin. The USA have zero.
Couldn't comment so much on your list of newish talent but Wlad, Valuev, Sam, Krasniqi, Gomez, Peter and Tua are all poor.

So Audley Harrison is left as the future leader, aha interesting.......

Remember how bad most champs of the 80´s and 90´s were......

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 11 Nov 2005, 10:18

Remember how bad most champs of the 80´s and 90´s were......

jeez what you wouldn't give now for a division that included guys like Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Tyson, Moorer, Mercer, Golota, Morrison, Ruddock, old Foreman, Holmes, Briggs, Bruno, Cooper (scraping the barrel a bit now...)

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 11 Nov 2005, 10:21

For me the most damning endictment is Ollie McCall. The guy's past 40, with a history of severe mental instability and ravaged by things unmentionable in the past. And in the era of his 'prime' he was a middle-of-the road world level guy. Now he's seen by many as having a decent shot.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 11 Nov 2005, 10:27

some WBC champs: Witherspoon, Thomas, Douglas, McCall, Bruno

WBA: Seldon, old Foreman, Moorer, Smith, Tubbs, Page, Coetzee, Dokes, Weaver, Tate

These names were fornicating champs in the 2 best organisations!!!!!

Regarding these names all names I menitoned must have been x-times champion, even Audley Harrison.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 11 Nov 2005, 10:42

Coconut wrote:For me the most damning endictment is Ollie McCall. The guy's past 40, with a history of severe mental instability and ravaged by things unmentionable in the past. And in the era of his 'prime' he was a middle-of-the road world level guy. Now he's seen by many as having a decent shot.

Yeah, good McCall by you Coconut. I think I said the same about Corrie Sanders. How the fornicate can someone as utterly shit as Sam Peter be top ten? Woeful.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 11 Nov 2005, 10:49

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
Coconut wrote:For me the most damning endictment is Ollie McCall. The guy's past 40, with a history of severe mental instability and ravaged by things unmentionable in the past. And in the era of his 'prime' he was a middle-of-the road world level guy. Now he's seen by many as having a decent shot.
Yeah, good McCall by you Coconut. I think I said the same about Corrie Sanders. How the fornicate can someone as utterly shit as Sam Peter be top ten? Woeful.

How the fornicate can someone as utterly shit as Bruno, Witherspoon, Thomas or Douglas be a WBC champion of the world??

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Nov 2005, 13:27

jamesmcdonnel

Further back, Marciano's era was pretty piss poor

what about ezzard charles, jersey joe walcott, archie moore??

todays diviison is by far the weakest

Current world heavyweight scene - worst in history?

Current world heavyweight scene - worst in history?

Re: Current world heavyweight scene - worst in history?