Sonny Liston VS Rocky Marciano

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 28 Nov 2005, 23:42

who wins?

i think rocky gets a hold of liston late. i dont think liston is capable of beating rocky.. rocky is not going to be KO by liston IMO, which means he has to outbox rocky over 15 rounds, and i dont think thats the type of fight hes interested him. rocky catches him late with a right hook... not a really close fight, but respectable for liston

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Nov 2005, 00:52

Decagon wrote:Liston destroys Marciano. End of thread.

first of all, no one is destroying anyone. these are two top 10 heavyweights, to think the fight wont be competitve is ludicrous.

I am in firm belief due to styles of the slugger 51-52 marciano and peak liston, the fight goes at least 6 rounds.

i think the 54/55 swarmer marciano however gets kayoed early. however the 51-52 slugger marciano stands a much better shot and i would make it even money defintley.

liston was not wild aggresive as foreman, he was more methodical stalker. marciano was not coming into to u with his head out or aggresive ALL THE TIME like frazier. both liston and rocky were more methodical, and only got aggresive or wild when they found the opening or went on the attack.

liston would slowly inch forward stalking his prey, while marciano actually leaned back and would dip into a crouch at tines. based on that, dont expect rocky to come flying out throwing haymakers. both would wait aand try to find the opening.

marciano saved his aggression and wild onslaught when he either had a man hurt or went in for the attack.

this is by no means a foremn-frazier

i have doubts about each fighter in this matchup.

my doubts with liston are his chin, heart, and ability to handle marcianos work rate, marcianos right hand, liston in the later rounds

my doubts with marciano is listons huge reach advtange, killler jab, listons uppercuts which rocky was sucecptible to, listons is a little bit stronger which will make it hard for rocky to bull him.

51/52 slugger marciano mid round KO or liston mid round KO

liston early KO 54/55 swarmer marciano

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Nov 2005, 00:55

this is an interesting quote or story and it was the first time i have heard of it.

i read this on another forum.

There is a story Lou Duva tells in the new book "Undefeated".....years After Rocky retired and Liston was Champ, Rocky and Sonny Liston and Duva were sitting together and someone asked Rocky how he would have done vs Liston, Rocky was a humble man,polite,while Liston was a wise guy and a bully,Rocky said ,"he is a big guy,it would have been a tough fight,Liston could have given me trouble,..Liston said,"Man I would of Killed you"...Rocky Shot back get your gear and lets get in the ring.....Rocky had Balls and feared No one

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 29 Nov 2005, 00:56

thank you BB for making sense.... decagon ... _______

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 29 Nov 2005, 02:49

Hard fight for Rocky as Liston's jab was a KO punch in its own right and Rocky has got to get past it. Rocky's game plan has to be to get to the body and discourage Sonny by taking his best shots and getting into the late rounds.

theone · Post by **theone** » 29 Nov 2005, 07:19

Liston by tko inside of six.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Nov 2005, 07:30

Listons Jab would break Rocky up and he'd win by ko or stoppage in about 7 or 8... I can even see Liston winning early in 2 rounds over the slow starting Marciano. Liston would be too fast, too strong and too technically superior for Rocky...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Nov 2005, 07:34

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:this is an interesting quote or story and it was the first time i have heard of it.

i read this on another forum.

There is a story Lou Duva tells in the new book "Undefeated".....years After Rocky retired and Liston was Champ, Rocky and Sonny Liston and Duva were sitting together and someone asked Rocky how he would have done vs Liston, Rocky was a humble man,polite,while Liston was a wise guy and a bully,Rocky said ,"he is a big guy,it would have been a tough fight,Liston could have given me trouble,..Liston said,"Man I would of Killed you"...Rocky Shot back get your gear and lets get in the
ring.....Rocky had Balls and feared No one

I wouldn't take what Lou Duva says as gospel to be honest. Liston had plenty of balls himself, and Marcinao's style was made for him.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 29 Nov 2005, 08:01

Great story about Rocky wanting to 'get his gear' and fight. That's the key to victory for me. Marciano was all heart, guts and determination, as welL as being very strong, great stamina, powerful puncher and having a great chin. No way the Bully beats this. Liston could give it, but he couldn't take it and Rocky's will to win would see a mid to late KO....NO DOUBT

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Nov 2005, 08:25

walshb wrote:Great story about Rocky wanting to 'get his gear' and fight. That's the key to victory for me. Marciano was all heart, guts and determination, as welL as being very strong, great stamina, powerful puncher and having a great chin. No way the Bully beats this. Liston could give it, but he couldn't take it and Rocky's will to win would see a mid to late KO....NO DOUBT

Ofcourse Liston could take it too... have you seen his fights with Williams?... Williams was a biggerpuncher than Rocky and broke Listons nose in their first bout, but this didn't put Liston off. He also fought a whole bout against Marshall with a broken jaw. Liston didn't like movers but Marciano with his style was made for him... it would be simular to the Foeman vs Frazier fights except Liston had better skills than Foreman...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Nov 2005, 08:26

Rocky actually thought very highly of Liston as a fighter and said as early as 1958 that Liston would be heavyweight champion...

witherspoon · Post by **witherspoon** » 29 Nov 2005, 10:05

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Decagon wrote:Liston destroys Marciano. End of thread.

first of all, no one is destroying anyone. these are two top 10 heavyweights, to think the fight wont be competitve is ludicrous.

I am in firm belief due to styles of the slugger 51-52 marciano and peak liston, the fight goes at least 6 rounds.

i think the 54/55 swarmer marciano however gets kayoed early. however the 51-52 slugger marciano stands a much better shot and i would make it even money defintley.

liston was not wild aggresive as foreman, he was more methodical stalker. marciano was not coming into to u with his head out or aggresive ALL THE TIME like frazier. both liston and rocky were more methodical, and only got aggresive or wild when they found the opening or went on the attack.

liston would slowly inch forward stalking his prey, while marciano actually leaned back and would dip into a crouch at tines. based on that, dont expect rocky to come flying out throwing haymakers. both would wait aand try to find the opening.

marciano saved his aggression and wild onslaught when he either had a man hurt or went in for the attack.

this is by no means a foremn-frazier

i have doubts about each fighter in this matchup.

my doubts with liston are his chin, heart, and ability to handle marcianos work rate, marcianos right hand, liston in the later rounds

my doubts with marciano is listons huge reach advtange, killler jab, listons uppercuts which rocky was sucecptible to, listons is a little bit stronger which will make it hard for rocky to bull him.

51/52 slugger marciano mid round KO or liston mid round KO

liston early KO 54/55 swarmer marciano

BB49, you should be congratulated for your lack of blind bias where Rocky debates are concerned. That's an intelligent post, IMHO, but I want to take issue with one thing. You surely can't doubt Listons chin and heart.
Granted, he showed zero of both in Ali II, but who knows what was going through his messed up mind at that stage of his career.
He went the distance with Marty Marshall fighting with a broken jaw, I think it was 12 rounds and possibly he broke the jaw in the first, but I don't remember, but that is from John Tosches biography of Liston.
Surely that takes heart. And if you watch the second Cleveland Williams fight, just check out the way Williams haymakers bounce off Sonnys head.
I will admit I don't know alot about Williams punching power, he don't look like Chris Bird though.

witherspoon · Post by **witherspoon** » 29 Nov 2005, 10:18

witherspoon wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Decagon wrote:Liston destroys Marciano. End of thread.

first of all, no one is destroying anyone. these are two top 10 heavyweights, to think the fight wont be competitve is ludicrous.

I am in firm belief due to styles of the slugger 51-52 marciano and peak liston, the fight goes at least 6 rounds.

i think the 54/55 swarmer marciano however gets kayoed early. however the 51-52 slugger marciano stands a much better shot and i would make it even money defintley.

liston was not wild aggresive as foreman, he was more methodical stalker. marciano was not coming into to u with his head out or aggresive ALL THE TIME like frazier. both liston and rocky were more methodical, and only got aggresive or wild when they found the opening or went on the attack.

liston would slowly inch forward stalking his prey, while marciano actually leaned back and would dip into a crouch at tines. based on that, dont expect rocky to come flying out throwing haymakers. both would wait aand try to find the opening.

marciano saved his aggression and wild onslaught when he either had a man hurt or went in for the attack.

this is by no means a foremn-frazier

i have doubts about each fighter in this matchup.

my doubts with liston are his chin, heart, and ability to handle marcianos work rate, marcianos right hand, liston in the later rounds

my doubts with marciano is listons huge reach advtange, killler jab, listons uppercuts which rocky was sucecptible to, listons is a little bit stronger which will make it hard for rocky to bull him.

51/52 slugger marciano mid round KO or liston mid round KO

liston early KO 54/55 swarmer marciano
BB49, you should be congratulated for your lack of blind bias where Rocky debates are concerned. That's an intelligent post, IMHO, but I want to take issue with one thing. You surely can't doubt Listons chin and heart.
Granted, he showed zero of both in Ali II, but who knows what was going through his messed up mind at that stage of his career.
He went the distance with Marty Marshall fighting with a broken jaw, I think it was 12 rounds and possibly he broke the jaw in the first, but I don't remember, but that is from John Tosches biography of Liston.
Surely that takes heart. And if you watch the second Cleveland Williams fight, just check out the way Williams haymakers bounce off Sonnys head.
I will admit I don't know alot about Williams punching power, he don't look like Chris Bird though.

I just checked out Boxrec, the Marshall fight was only 8 rounds.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 29 Nov 2005, 12:23

This would be a straight ahead collision and I think it would be exciting while it lasted. In the end though, Liston's size, strength and punching power would be too much for Marciano. Liston KO 5.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Nov 2005, 15:38

i honetly laugh when people say this will be a foreman frazier,

liston had completley different style than foremnan, and rocky had a much different style than frazier

thanx witherspoon, when it comes to anyone even my favorites i try to be as fair as possible.

- i mean liston will be the favorite in this fight and most will probably pick liston, but u can defintley make a strong case rocky would win this fight.

- believe it or not, what poster WALSH said is a good arguement and u will find it hard to counter him.

silkov, sonny will not win this fight alone with his jab. walcott had a great jab, so did others like moore and lastzarza and they all said rocky was harder to hit cleanly than they thought.

hell even ali told dundee marciano was alot harder to hit with a jab than he looked.

- watch the tape marciano does get hit by jabs at times, but more often than not hes not hit. marciano is good at getting low avoiding the jab and actually quite good at parrying the jab.

liston will have to work to beat marciano and it wont be easier, the hardest part will be finishing marciano who i cant see laying down.

- this fight actually could go the distance and liston could win it on points, though i did see liston fade in some late rounds vs machen AND LISTON NEVER WENT 15 ROUNDS so its hard to say whether he could handle rockys pace and pressure in late rounds.

once again, the 54-55 marciano who was a swarmer plunging in with a accumalation with short punches would have been knocked out by liston because that style was made for liston. he would have been coming in throwing many punches but would have met some huge uppercuts. rockys defense was better at this stage of his career, but the fact rocky will be charging in trying to slug it out and leaving himself open in the slugout for big punches will get him knocked out vs liston whos a harder puncher than moore and charles.

however the 51-52 slugger marciano who was a one punch KO artist, and leaned back more in a stanley ketchell stance and who waited for the moment to attack and had the big suzie Q would have a lot better chance at knocking out liston. cause the 51-52 marciano could match liston in power, and marciano had just as a good a chin if not better and had more HEART AND STAMINA key ingrediants.

of course lliston was a bit stronger, but not by much. liston had a good 30 lbs on rock and a huge reach advantage which could spell trouble for the rock. liston also was probably a greater puncher than rocky and hit just as hard as the rock with one punch and that could defntley cost rocky in the slugout. i think the key to listons arsenal to winning this fight was uppercut which rocky was at times prone to throughtout his career.

people compare this matchup to foreman frazier which is ridiculous,

i think u could compare this to tyson-holyfield

will the bully be able to beat a guy like the rock? will he quit when he gets in the line of adversity like ali I??

Williams was a biggerpuncher than Rocky

i disagree,

rocky was not only a hard hitter, he was a GREATER PUNCHER than williams.

i dont see how u could think williams is a bigger puncher than the rock, sometimes i think the only fights people watch of rocky are marciano-cockell and marciano-moore.

- i also might add as i hope u know, williams was not a good fighter as rock and not even close to as durable.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Nov 2005, 15:40

Seamus wrote:This would be a straight ahead collision and I think it would be exciting while it lasted. In the end though, Liston's size, strength and punching power would be too much for Marciano. Liston KO 5.

like i said either marciano mid round ko or liston mid round ko

- i can defintley see liston knocking out marcino

josh576 · Post by **josh576** » 29 Nov 2005, 15:55

this would be a ruthless slugfest for sure. liston dominates the early rounds, but rockys chin would hold up i think. we all know marciano would train like hell for this fight too. liston gets tired in the middle rounds, marcianos tremendous stamina and will comes through and he batters liston late. i see a late round (12-15) ko or a desicion for marciano.

the only question mark for me would be if marciano could withstand sonnys bombs long enough for liston to get tired. marciano was surely not a boxer who could stick and move, so he would get hit hard early. marciano never really fought a puncher as skilled as sonny so we'll never know. however, my gut says late ko or decision for rocky.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 29 Nov 2005, 16:50

Decagon wrote:This'd be like Foreman-Frazier, except Liston was better than Foreman and Frazier was better than Marciano.

i dunno where u get your ideas from

.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 29 Nov 2005, 17:27

Liston never fought anyone as relentless and hard punching as the Rock. Liston may have been able to hit Rocky and maybe even knock him down, but rocky would press forward and make Liston very uncomfortable. Liston gets roughed up and then either quits on his stool in about the 7th or 8th round, or he decides to take a 10 count after getting knocked down.

The physical and mental pressure that Rocky would have put on Liston would have been more than he could handle.

theone · Post by **theone** » 29 Nov 2005, 18:52

Liston never fought anyone as relentless and hard punching as the Rock.

So what? Marciano never fought a complete fighter like Liston who was also bigger stronger and hit at least as hard as him.

but rocky would press forward and make Liston very uncomfortable.

And it would be a walk in the park for Marciano? He would have to contend with the longest hardest jab he has ever faced in his life. He would be dealing with someone he couldnt out muscle on the inside.

With that being said it is concievable that Marciano could win by ko. But a prime Liston would most likely out box the Rock, keepinghim froming getting inside then stopping him either on cuts or tko by the 6th round.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 29 Nov 2005, 18:59

Marciano was not the quickest guy in the world, he didn't have the best defenfense, not the fleetest afoot, technically not the best boxer.......... lets see 49 and 0, looks like the only thing he could do was beat ya.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 30 Nov 2005, 07:34

theone wrote:And it would be a walk in the park for Marciano? He would have to contend with the longest hardest jab he has ever faced in his life. He would be dealing with someone he couldnt out muscle on the inside.

No, it wouldn't be a walk in the park, but Rocky was one of the best at fighting through adversity, and Liston quit twice against Ali. Also, while Liston was bigger than Rocky and had a very good jab, he was VERY slow of foot, and only had average hand spped, so it's unlikely that he would be able to dominate Rocky, who could get very low and apply relentless pressure.

All good points, but I'll stick with my assessment.

theone · Post by **theone** » 30 Nov 2005, 08:46

No, it wouldn't be a walk in the park, but Rocky was one of the best at fighting through adversity

Charles, Walcott and Moore, three tough but older smallish heavyweight fighters did not pose the threat to the Rock that Liston would have, not by a long shot. The Rock knew that all he had to do was keep swinging and eventually he would land enough to stop them, without having to worry to much about what was coming back in return.

Liston quit twice against Ali.

The rock did not possess footwork, or hand speed, thats what frustrated Liston. Marciano would be there to be hit.

he was VERY slow of foot, and only had average hand spped, so it's unlikely that he would be able to dominate Rocky,

It seems you've only watched Listons fights with Ali. Prime Ali could make anyone look slow. The fact is Liston was faster than Marciano, had a ALOT more mobility and boxing skill than Marciano.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 30 Nov 2005, 10:11

theone wrote:It seems you've only watched Listons fights with Ali. Prime Ali could make anyone look slow. The fact is Liston was faster than Marciano, had a ALOT more mobility and boxing skill than Marciano.

I've heard this before and must again say that I have seen MANY Liston fights, and he was VERY slow of foot in ALL of his fights, and his hand speed was at best average. He won with intimidation and power to go with some decent boxing skills. He was no Tunney or Holmes, and was much slower than Charles, Walcott or Moore. And yes, he probably would have had some success against Rocky due to his reach advantage and powerfull jab, but after a few rounds, the Rock would have been in his face and making him work harder than he was comfortable with.

You are correct that Liston was frustrated by Ali's speed, but he also was VERY uncomfortable with the beating he was taking, which was quite evident on his face when he quit on his stool in the first fight. Liston was very hittable, and Rocky could hit. After about 5-7 rounds he would have sore ribs, swollen eyes and would be ready to quit.

As I said before, you have some valid points, but I can't see a slow footed Liston beating Marciano.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 30 Nov 2005, 13:46

Absolutley no conest. Liston beats Rocky like an overated fighter he is, Liston would either give him a boxing lesson while breaking him down with his jab and finish him in the later rounds, or Liston would give him a brawling lesson and knock him out in the mids rounds.

Liston took the shots of Cleveland Williams who hits harder than the rock with both his left hook and right hand, so Marciano isnt comming close in knocking out the steel jawed Liston.

Power - Liston
Speed - Liston
Chin - Liston
Endurance - Tie
Overall boxing skills - Liston by far
Heart - Liston (he suffered a broken jaw from Marshall and he still went the distance)