Sonny Liston vs Riddick Bowe. What If?

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 11 Dec 2005, 15:36

Who do you think would have won between these two big, strong, power punching Heavyweights. Could Bowe cope with the feared Liston Jab? Could Liston Cope with the even bigger Bowes infighting ability?

Sonny Liston
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009031

Riddick Bowe
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=001640

theone · Post by **theone** » 11 Dec 2005, 15:55

Good one KOJOE. Liston's longer harder jab would trouble Bowe all night. But Bowe's inside game was strong enough to keep Liston from taking too many liberties once inside. Both were capable of knocking each other out. This would be a tremendous fight; I'm going to say Liston late tko, but someone could probably convince me otherwise.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Dec 2005, 16:30

theone wrote:Good one KOJOE. Liston's longer harder jab would trouble Bowe all night. But Bowe's inside game was strong enough to keep Liston from taking too many liberties once inside. Both were capable of knocking each other out. This would be a tremendous fight; I'm going to say Liston late tko, but someone could probably convince me otherwise.

liston early KO, bowe was there to be hit and loved to slug it out at times. Bowe also has a dentable chin, and lacked listons overall punching abilities.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 11 Dec 2005, 19:33

Prime Bowe is larger, stronger, faster, and has a better chin and bigger punch than Liston. Big Daddy by KO in 6.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Dec 2005, 21:29

Seamus wrote:Prime Bowe is larger, stronger, faster, and has a better chin and bigger punch than Liston. Big Daddy by KO in 6.

hes larger, but he is not much stronger than liston, he does not have a bigger punch than liston nor does he have a better chin than liston. sonny was also faster than bowe. what could possibly make u think bowe had a punch bigger than liston?? cause if bowe really was faster, stronger, better chin, harder hitter than liston, then bowe would have been greatest heavy of all time.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 12 Dec 2005, 00:38

What could possibly make me think Bowe has a bigger punch ? Are you serious ? Only the fact that Bowe has a better KO pct, fewer rounds per KO avg and a much higher pct of 1st round KO's. Plus best of all, Bowe's came against real HW's and NOT Cruiserweights like well over half of Liston's were. Liston had 8 guys under 200 lbs take him the distance. Bowe never fought anyone that small, and still his KO pct is better.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 12 Dec 2005, 06:58

Seamus wrote:What could possibly make me think Bowe has a bigger punch ? Are you serious ? Only the fact that Bowe has a better KO pct, fewer rounds per KO avg and a much higher pct of 1st round KO's. Plus best of all, Bowe's came against real HW's and NOT Cruiserweights like well over half of Liston's were. Liston had 8 guys under 200 lbs take him the distance. Bowe never fought anyone that small, and still his KO pct is better.

At the time Liston fough there were relatively few "blimp" heavys. People in general have just got bigger over the years, hence the rise in poundage of most modern heavyweights. I realise that the introduction of the Cruiserweight class also takes a few likely heavys out of that division but any natural cruiser who's good enough will put on the extra poundage and go after the big money at heavyweight.

Liston - at his peak - could hold his own in any era and against heavier men. I think he's take Bowe out around 5-7 rounds, but that's just my opinion. I used to think Bowe wasn't all that good but I've changed my mind over the years... but I still think Liston would have too much all round skill, punch and meaness for him.

J

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 12 Dec 2005, 07:42

Seamus wrote:Prime Bowe is larger, stronger, faster, and has a better chin and bigger punch than Liston. Big Daddy by KO in 6.

Maybe in principle, but I'd still only agree with you that he's larger.

Who of any merit, besides Holyfield, did Bowe prove this against? Many people look great against 2nd rate opposition. Bowe was outmuscled and outpunched by Holyfield, a blown up cruiserweight, at times, and nearly kayoed in the 3rd fight.

Simply, Liston was an all time great, Bowe was an underachiever who beat 1 notable fighter in their prime. Liston by TKO between 8-10.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 12 Dec 2005, 07:44

Bowe had a lot of talent but foten seemed unable to seriously mount a sustained offence. Liston could and would do this in the fight. On the other hand Sonny would have been in a fight in which all the physical advantages were with the other man for once. It would have been interesting to see how/if this effected him.

After tasting one another's power I can see both men working their jabs and picking their moments. Liston cleaned out the division and Bowe almost did. In the end Sonny's talent makes me go for him but this is a clsoe match up.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 12 Dec 2005, 09:14

i think a prime Liston is too much for riddick. liston would tear riddick apart with his jab and work in for the kill shot. i think riddick makes it a decent fight but liston all the way. Liston by KO round 7

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 12 Dec 2005, 09:28

Bowe had to be at his very, very best to outpoint a 209 lbs Evander Holyfield. That was Bowe's peak performace by far and basically the foundation of Bowe's otherwise underachieving career. Without that win, what did he ever do that was particulary impressive? Bowe is like Ken Norton it the sense that he's entire legacy is based on the that he had the style to get the better of an all-time great. Without those fights, you're looking at a pretty ordinary heavyweight.

I feel a prime Liston was better than this version of Holyfield, especially the with the jab.
I'd pick Liston to outpoint Bowe in a this fight.

-KOKid-

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Dec 2005, 09:42

-KOKid- wrote:Bowe had to be at his very, very best to outpoint a 209 lbs Evander Holyfield. That was Bowe's peak performace by far and basically the foundation of Bowe's otherwise underachieving career. Without that win, what did he ever do that was particulary impressive? Bowe is like Ken Norton it the sense that he's entire legacy is based on the that he had the style to get the better of an all-time great. Without those fights, you're looking at a pretty ordinary heavyweight.

I feel a prime Liston was better than this version of Holyfield, especially the with the jab.
I'd pick Liston to outpoint Bowe in a this fight.

-KOKid-

yeah but bowe still had trouble outpointing evander. i had it 116-112 but evander hit him hard at times and bowe showed he had a leaky defense and showed he lacked good stamina in the 10th round when after not being able to finish holy, he stumbled across the ring out of breath just holding on the last half a round. i mean i can only imagine what a dempsey or louis would do when they get a tired bowe like that

evander did not having the boxing skills , nor did he have even close to the power or jab liston have.

and yet holy outpointed bowe in the rematch.

- bowe was even given loads of trouble by a fat old past his prime tony tubbs.

liston would box with bowe until this thing turned into a slugout in which liston would KO bowe in a hurry.

bowe did have a dentable chin

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 12 Dec 2005, 10:00

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:bowe did have a dentable chin

It may have been "dentable", but man did he take some hellacious shots from Golota without getting KO'd. I agree with most of the posters here that Bowe had limited accomplishments, and a suspect defense, but I just can't see him getting KO'd by Liston. Liston by UD with maybe a late KD of Bowe.

e.c.flurry · Post by **e.c.flurry** » 12 Dec 2005, 18:13

Liston kills him in 7th and a youns cassius clay would be ringside
chanting: You wanna lose your dough bet it on bowe!!!!!
this is an excuse for a bout bowe gon get kfto!!!!

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 12 Dec 2005, 21:15

Riddick Bowe was WAY tougher than Sonny Liston. Did Riddick ever quit in a fight between rounds because his shoulder was bothering him (how many posters here will never forgive Vitali for doing that ?) Did Riddick ever fall on his face from a short shot to the temple ? I'm sure someone will claim that Liston through both fights, but when it comes down to it, no one can prove that he did. Fact is, Liston was the one who associated with Mob guys, not Ali. Who knows what happened to Liston in those fights, he was a strange guy who was addicted to whiskey and prostitutes, and he may just have imploded against Ali, a guy he vastly underrated. Did Liston ever get flattened by an iron chinned future hall of famer, then get off the canvas and KO the guy 2 rounds later ? Did Liston ever remain standing after being hit with a multitude of low blows from a hard hitting 240 lb opponent ? I can't believe how lightly regarded Riddick Bowe is on this forum. The guy's got one Freakin loss in his career, and it was by majority decision to a future hall of famer. His resume may not look overly impressive, but I wouldn't call it weak. He Ko'd Bruce Seldon in the 1st, and while Seldon didn't have a good chin he could still hit, besides you can't ask for more than KO in the 1st. Dokes and Ferguson weren't really worthy opponents, but Ferguson got the shot because he upset Ray Mercer, and both were quickly dispatched. Larry Donald was boring, but hard to hit and unbeaten, and Bowe took a one sided decision from him. Herbie Hide was very fast and unbeaten, but as soon as Bowe began landing it was over. Jorge Luis Gonzalez was 23-0 and a tall hard puncher, Bowe handled him easily. So, while Bowe's record isn't the most impressive out there, he still proved himself against the guys he faced.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Dec 2005, 23:58

I'm also confused as to why Bowe gets so little respect on this forum. He gets nitpicked to death like hardly any other fioghter.
He supposedly a bad defense and his chin is dentable, yet he was never stopped. He gets criticized for having trouble with Tubbs, one of the few close fights he had.
Liston for example, lost to Marty Marshall, who was nothing special, yet seldom gets this held against him.
Who would have won a Liston-Bowe fight? Hard to say. It certainly could have gone either way. Liston wouldn't have any huge advantage on him. Riddick Bowe was one of the most gifted heavyweights ever. He didn't reach his potential and could have been truly one of the greats, maybe top 5 of all time. He didn't accomplish that. However, he certainly did more than a lot of people give him credit for.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 13 Dec 2005, 07:28

Ambling Alp wrote:I'm also confused as to why Bowe gets so little respect on this forum. He gets nitpicked to death like hardly any other fioghter.
He supposedly a bad defense and his chin is dentable, yet he was never stopped. He gets criticized for having trouble with Tubbs, one of the few close fights he had.
Liston for example, lost to Marty Marshall, who was nothing special, yet seldom gets this held against him.
Who would have won a Liston-Bowe fight? Hard to say. It certainly could have gone either way. Liston wouldn't have any huge advantage on him. Riddick Bowe was one of the most gifted heavyweights ever. He didn't reach his potential and could have been truly one of the greats, maybe top 5 of all time. He didn't accomplish that. However, he certainly did more than a lot of people give him credit for.

Bowe gets little respect because of his weak opposition. Just look at his resume and try to find a legitimate top 5 HW besides Holyfield. And it didn't help that he did everything possible to avoid fighting Lewis.

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 13 Dec 2005, 08:50

Seamus wrote:Riddick Bowe was WAY tougher than Sonny Liston. Did Riddick ever quit in a fight between rounds because his shoulder was bothering him (how many posters here will never forgive Vitali for doing that ?)

Vitali quit against a way smaller fighter whom had no chance on winning on the scorecards and with only three rounds remaining of the fight.

Liston quit against a taller, faster and younger opponent whose style for hell for him and he was behind on the cards with more than half the fight left to go.

Bar the injury, which was to the same area on their bodies, I'd say these situations were close to complete opposite of each other.
Vitali quit because he is a quitter. Liston quit because he had no chance of winning.
Big difference.

-KOKid-

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 13 Dec 2005, 09:19

-KOKid- wrote:Bar the injury, which was to the same area on their bodies, I'd say these situations were close to complete opposite of each other.
Vitali quit because he is a quitter. Liston quit because he had no chance of winning.
Big difference.

-KOKid-

Liston quit after the 6th round of a 15 round fight. He quit because he was in the uncomfortable position of being in the ring with a guy who actually put some hurt on him and made him look amatuerish at times. While most observers watching the fight realized there was very little chance of him winning, a real warrior would have been able to suck it up and at least TRY to win the fight. Vitali also quit without trying to win the fight. Sounds like there's some similarity between the two fights.

I suggest watching the Tate Weaver fight. Weaver got shutout and pounded around the ring for 13 rounds before he even started landing any punches of consequence, and then went on to win with about 45 seconds to go in the fight. Weaver had many weaknesses. but he certainly proved to be a warrior that night. I think we saw the real Liston sitting on that stool after the 6th round.

Of course, I still think he would have had enough to beat Bowe.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 13 Dec 2005, 10:20

I think Bowe would take the fight to Liston and win the first couple of rounds with Liston starting to take control in the 3rd or fourth on route to a 6-7 round ko. Liston=way better on the outside, Bowe was great on the inside but so was Liston who also punched harder, with meaner intentions than Bowe.
Liston is sadly very underrated, IMO he beats Bowe and Lewis and Holyfield too.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 13 Dec 2005, 10:22

The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:bowe did have a dentable chin
It may have been "dentable", but man did he take some hellacious shots from Golota without getting KO'd. I agree with most of the posters here that Bowe had limited accomplishments, and a suspect defense, but I just can't see him getting KO'd by Liston. Liston by UD with maybe a late KD of Bowe.

Are you comparing Golota's power to Liston's?

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 13 Dec 2005, 10:23

I think Bowe would take the fight to Liston and win the first couple of rounds with Liston starting to take control in the 3rd or fourth on route to a 6-7 round ko. Liston=way better on the outside, Bowe was great on the inside but so was Liston who also punched harder, with meaner intentions than Bowe.
Liston is sadly very underrated, IMO he beats Bowe and Lewis and Holyfield too, true he was smaller, but bigger isn't better, todays heavies are collectively the largest/heaviest bunch of any era....they're also without doubt the crappest.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 13 Dec 2005, 11:53

mrbassie wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:bowe did have a dentable chin
It may have been "dentable", but man did he take some hellacious shots from Golota without getting KO'd. I agree with most of the posters here that Bowe had limited accomplishments, and a suspect defense, but I just can't see him getting KO'd by Liston. Liston by UD with maybe a late KD of Bowe.
Are you comparing Golota's power to Liston's?

No, I was just saying that Bowe clearly showed that he could survive adversity in the Golota fights. BB stated that Bowe's chin was "dentable", which is true, but other than maybe Chuvalo what HW's chin wasn't dentable? The fact Bowe could get KD doesn't mean Liston could stop him. After all, Listons chin was also "dentable".

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 13 Dec 2005, 12:27

I would say these 2 guys actually had 2 of the stoutest chins in the division. neither were KD'd cheaply IMO.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 13 Dec 2005, 12:34

KoKid

When Liston quit after the 6th round against Ali, he was ahead by 2 points on one card, behind 2 pts on another, and even on the third.