Can Haye beat Bell?

boxerrob2005 · Post by **boxerrob2005** » 03 Feb 2006, 10:22

i hope the fight eventually will happen but does anyone think Haye can do it? He definately has a chance with his power but against Mormeck i think Bell looked really good. he showed fanatsic composure when Mormeck attacked, has good stamina, a big punch himself. despite losing the early rounds and being under heavy pressure he never panicked and i think that would be crucial against haye.

Also if Haye was to beat bell, i take it he would jump straight to heavy and not bother with any defences because of the weight struggles?

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 03 Feb 2006, 10:37

With his punching power Haye has a chance against anyone, he could come out and blast Bell inside of 3 rounds, or get stopped himself. I think that will probably be the story of Hayes career.

Smit · Post by **Smit** » 03 Feb 2006, 10:37

I'd rather not say til I've seen Haye go past 6 rounds

If he can't put Bell away then has he really done enough work to build upon his stamina?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 03 Feb 2006, 10:46

Haye doesn't look like someone who struggles with the weight to me. He has the physique who spends a lot of time pumping iron, you only have to look at his legs and his neck to see he hasn't got a huge frame and in fact he already looked beefed up at 200.

My guess is that it is more about his desire to compete in the supposed 'glamour division' of boxing, though at the moment 'squalour division' would be more apt.

Haye probably sees the fact that the division is sorely lacking in talent and youth right now, and sees an opprortunity to market himself as the next bright young thing from the British isles, hence the maloney connection.

Good luck to him, but I find it hard to see him having much success at heavyweight. I know it was a temple shot and all, but can you imagine say, Hasim Rahman getting decked and hurt by Lolenga Mock? Mock couldn't have dropped Rahman if he had a baseball bat, and that's

I suspect Haye's bombs wouldn't have quite the same impact at 200+, where the fighters have much thicker necks and can absorb the impact of those big shots much better. After all, Haye couldn't put Thompson down and there's a lot of heavyweight with a better beard than Thompson.

I don't mind being proved wrong, but I fear we could have another Herbie Hide in the making.

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 03 Feb 2006, 11:15

Depends how he looks at the weight, he could be a hide type fighter at heavy that is that he can bang and put people away but has to rely on movement which will become restricted at the weight.

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 03 Feb 2006, 11:26

I'm a BIG Haye fan and I naturally think he can beat any Cruiser out there, his power and speed are nothing short of phenomenal. I want to see him in with someone who has got a solid chin (a Cantatore or Arslan type) to see if his power has a similar effect on them as it has been doing on his opponents to date (I think it will)

I think any cruiser in the world will do well to last to the half way mark with Haye now that he is fighting patiently (since the Thompson loss). There are still questions over his stamina and chin, but thats only because no fornicator has been able to hit him or stay in the ring with him (recently). Even if he turns out to have a shocking chin and bad stamina (not going to happen) he is still a frightening prospect.

I fancy Haye to do well at Heavy when he makes the move up, I think theres a fair chance he'll lose a few when in with the bigger hitting men as he is naturally alot smaller and when they hit you you stay hit, but his speed will give some of these heavies fits and he already punches like a heavyweight. If his stamina and chin turn out to be ok I can see him winning titles at HW.

If Haye doesn't win a world title I'll start supporting a football team in Wolverhampton (not going to happen)

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 03 Feb 2006, 11:29

still not seen bell fight.

i'm getting some tapes thru, so i look forward to checking him out in a few days time.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 03 Feb 2006, 11:38

i have said it before and i'll say it again, as James suggests, Haye doesnt "struggle" to make cruiser... he may have made it more difficult by pumping up on the weights... but he was still fighting at 81kg in 2000 and said he was only about 85 when he won silver in Belfast.... This is amateur and same day weigh in of course.
He doesnt have a natural heavyweight physique... he is Holyfield/Moorer style naturally closer to light heavy...

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 03 Feb 2006, 11:45

After he beat Gurov, he said that he walks around at 16 stone (I think) and he'll out grow the cruiser division soon(ish).

Haye likes the bright lights and BIG pay cheques of the HW division, I reckon he wants to get there asap with a collection of cruiserweight belts behind him. If he continues to put on size like he has been douing over the past 12-18 months he'll soon be too BIG for the cruisers.

Danish geeza, Cantatore then bring on the BIG boys Mormeck, Bell, Jones, Cunningham, Braithwaite, then get started on the heavies

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 03 Feb 2006, 11:51

About his chin, this ex super middle who knocked him down, do you think it's possible that was only a fluke?

I suspect Haye's bombs wouldn't have quite the same impact at 200+, where the fighters have much thicker necks and can absorb the impact of those big shots much better. After all, Haye couldn't put Thompson down and there's a lot of heavyweight with a better beard than Thompson.

He could just stay at say 210 - 220 (as he says he walks around with that much) and as long as he still has the movement it shouln't affect his power.

Thicker necks but most of them are still going down without much effort.

If he truly has weight struggles then he should move up to heavyweight so he doesn't affect his health with all the weight draining.

Even if he has a small frame, he is tall and if he's lifting weights he'll go that heavy. Only his legs look small really.

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 03 Feb 2006, 12:03

To be honnest I think he has been doing a lot of training on explosive power thus building his muscles and that is the key to his problem at the weight. He would do well to find a ballance between keeping and building his power and not puting on too much more muscle if at all possible.

RJJ used to spend a lot of time pumping iron too and he consiquently rose in weight from Middle to light heavy (some of which came with age I appriciate).

Haye looks good but IMHO should stick to cruzer for a year or two yet.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 03 Feb 2006, 12:55

Max Molyneux wrote:About his chin, this ex super middle who knocked him down, do you think it's possible that was only a fluke?

Doubt it somehow, as he was famously knocked cold as an amateur by a light middle. Typical BIG puncher really, in that his chin aint great. Often the way & evens things out, just ask Enzo.
Still, makes for thrill a minute Tommy Hearns type fights.

Great win by Bell, but his own chin doesn't seem the best in the world. But similar to Carl Thompson, he'll probably hang in there and take out Haye in 5 or so rounds. Always the chance Haye could blow him away inside a round though - he seems to hit THAT hard.

Foggy · Post by **Foggy** » 03 Feb 2006, 13:53

If Haye has a couple of fights and manages to go 12 rounds before getting in with Bell i'll give him a good chance. Bell so people say was lucky to win the title on points & Rothman gave him all he had and the scores were close at the time of the stoppage, so if Haye learns to go the full 12 rounds before getting Bell maybe he can outbox Bell for the 12 rounds or if he decided otherwise just bombed him out. But better to have 2 options than 1.

Boxingmad · Post by **Boxingmad** » 03 Feb 2006, 19:53

I still remember him getting chinned at York Hall by Jim Twite from Triumph ABC in the ABA semi-finals at York Hall. He'd beaten Courtney Fry from Repton ABC in the London ABA final at the same venue, and we all thought Haye was the heir-in-waiting. Then BOOSH!

This is what concerns me. First Twite, then the Molenda Locke(is that correct?) uppercut, and the Thompson defeat. Bell is a big puncher. I certainly don't question Haye's heart, just his chin.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 04 Feb 2006, 13:11

I ve seen Bell and he didnt look like an undisputed champ to me. Surely the weakest undisputed champ for years. at least baldomir has some good skills.

Haye is a lot more talented and i could easily see him wiping out Bell. If he fought an intelligent fight and picked his shots I see him landing on the lumbering, clumsy Bell.

glahn · Post by **glahn** » 04 Feb 2006, 13:54

Whoever lands his bombs first wins this one. Simple as that.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 04 Feb 2006, 14:45

Haye has a punchers chance against anybody in the division, but he really is an accident waiting to happen....but untill then he is the most exciting prospect out there

pop_shots · Post by **pop_shots** » 04 Feb 2006, 20:07

In short,

no way. Does Haye hit harder than Mormeck? If he's at about the same level, that tells you that just because you can hit hard, doesn't mean if you catch Bell, it'll stop him. Bell is proficient at rolling with punches, and would eat Haye for breakfast.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 05 Feb 2006, 06:35

Riddick Blowe wrote:I ve seen Bell and he didnt look like an undisputed champ to me. Surely the weakest undisputed champ for years. at least baldomir has some good skills.

Haye is a lot more talented and i could easily see him wiping out Bell. If he fought an intelligent fight and picked his shots I see him landing on the lumbering, clumsy Bell.

Bell looked damn good vs Mormeck. He took stunning punches and laughed them off. Might look messy, but he works brilliantly on sapping his foe in clinches, pushing, mauling, hooking the body - and when the opponent's totally exhausted he turns on the firepower. He's a pure fighter.

Bell is unbeatable in a war. Boxers will give him trouble. Hence why he sometimes looks bad. But Bell takes a good shot, has superb recovery powers, great stamina, power, a wicked body attack. Haye is so unproven, especially in those departments. IMO Haye's booming shots would not finish Bell, but it'd be entertaining.

how can you call Bell one of the weakest undisputed champs, when he's just KO'd an excellent fighter in Mormeck who was well favored to beat him? Not only that, but he's beaten a fine level of comp - as top contender: Arthur Williams twice, Ezra Sellers, Kelvin Davis, Derek Harmon, Jason Robinson - as title holder: Dale Brown and Sebastian Rothmann.

Now, as undisputed champ, he faces the toughest schedule of any cruiser champ from history - the winner between fine boxers Brown & Cora, Steve Cunningham, Guillermo Jones, maybe a unification with Nelson, poss meeting with a top light heavy Tarver, and there's plenty of young punchers who can make it to world class like Macca, Haye, Brudov. Not forgetting heavy hitters on the rebound like Braithwaite & K Davis.

If Bell can come through even half these names, he'll be a more than worthy undisputed champ. History will be kind to this generation of cruisers, as the best have been consitently facing the best

Bell fought up to Mormeck, a man who showed some sly moves and wicked punching ability. Judah fought down to a C-Level man in Baldomir in a piss awful fight. There's no comparison

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 07 Feb 2006, 12:26

I hear Haye has spared a lot of HWs I know you don't hit full level in sparing but that must say something for his punch resistance.

eddie booker · Post by **eddie booker** » 07 Feb 2006, 21:07

I've only seen Haye fight once and that was against Arthur Williams who is a cagey old veteran. Haye completely dominated Williams, but then he underestimated Carl Thompson and ran out of gas in a few rounds. Have to give credit to Carl Thompson though; I can't think of many fighters who are as game as he is. Haye definately can bang and I think in the long run losing that fight to Thompson might have been the best thing for him. Bell despite his record is really not a one-punch knockout artist. He kind of clubs is opponents awkwardly until basically they are beaten into submission. His chin and endurance and his awkward, lunging style are what win him fights. He's one of those fighters that basically does everything wrong, yet his heart and physical gifts bail him out each time. I didn't think he had a chance at beating Mormeck, but he simply never gave up and simply wore Mormeck out. Haye's best bet would be to jump on Bell early and try to blow him out of there, the longer this fight goes the more it favors Bell. Bell in about 9 rounds sounds about right to me, but with Haye's power, who knows?

probert24 · Post by **probert24** » 07 Feb 2006, 21:18

Here's a article on the present subject:

"Haye sets sights on giant-killing"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.j ... obox08.xml

states · Post by **states** » 07 Feb 2006, 21:20

I'd like to think Haye could be number one in the Cruisers, but there are too many doubts. His power looks awesome, and no mistake. But he couldn't put Thompson down, and whilst he certainly looks more measured after that defeat, who has he really fought? As impressive as that 45 second destruction of Gurov was, Johnny Nelson was on hand to point out that Terry Dunstan did it both quicker and earlier.

Bell has about 46 mandatory's right now, not to mention the fact that Virgil Hill has just captured the WBA 'regular*' title, so if Haye wants to fight him, maybe the alphabet rankings aren't the way to go.

I'd like to see Haye beat Cantatore in his first European defense, and then line up a WBO shot against the winner of Nelson-Maccarinnelli. Easier to make if Nelson wins, I'd say, because I think Johnny fancies it. But if Enzo wins, damn that's a fight. Absolutely no need for judges in that one. But either way, I think the WBO title actually helps, because it might just be more valid that the series of eliminaters that the 'Big 3' will insist upon. Better to claim you're a champion than a contender, no matter how shitty the WBO's rankings are.

*When I say WBA regular title, what I mean is "pointless piece of crap."

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 08 Feb 2006, 04:30

I still think the shots Haye was throwing at Thompson were not as hard as the ones he has knocked Gurov, Rossitto, Kelly etc down with. I am a Haye fan so maybe slightly bias but I think he saw he had Thompson hurt and just got over excited. His other knockouts have mostly come from well measured, well timed shots where as he just jumped all over Carl trying to load up on every shot which probably diminished his power. You could see how tense he was and took the whole speed element out of his punching. Taking nothing away from Carl but i'd like to be able to put that defeat more down to lack of experience than overated power.

Of course there are still question marks over his chin and stamina but if the Cantatore fight comes off after his next one then hopefully those questions can be answered.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 08 Feb 2006, 05:12

Haye probably will target the Nelson-Macca winner. But if Macca wins, Haye would have to wait; SN would probably let Macca fight Argie imports to grow into the belt - while Haye is wanting to make a mark at cruiser very quickly.

Now Bell does have all these mandatories. But Hill will have inherited Bell's mandatory Guillermo Jones, I think. So maybe that leaves Bell a free slot? There doesn't seem to be a WBC mandatory yet, Cunningham is the IBF top contender and the IBF # 2 is yet to be decided by Dale Brown and Felix Cora.

However, this is boxing and not everything comes off the way ppl want, especially not in the space of the year which seems to be Haye's cruiser schedule.

So why the hell is Haye fighting this EBU #12?