Bert Sugar's Top Ten List

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Feb 2006, 21:54

Alot of his list of top ten Heavyweight champions I thought was surprisingly stupid.

The one thing that puzzled me was how Sugar had GENE TUNNEY above Rocky Marciano (mind you this is a HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION list).

Tunney outside of having a few Heavy bouts here and there throughout his career---with the exception of the Dempsey fights---he had one lone title defense and then retired.

He was an excellent Light Heavyweight, possibly the greatest next to Ezzard Charles, but what the hell did he do at Heavy to be in a top ten anything? I don't see it.

He had Joe Louis as #1, Ali as #2, Jack Johnson as #4, Dempsey as #5, Marciano as #6---and I forget the rest except that Holmes was #10 and Frazier was either #8 or #9.

Course I did agree with Sugar on the assumption how fellow commentators on the show Ghuvalo and Holmes said Ali was number one, that Sugar stated: "I believe Ali was the fastest...but Heavyweights are supposed to be knock out artists, Ali was not."

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 22 Feb 2006, 09:12

Sugar got it wrong, on any single night or thru their career, Ali was number one. Louis may have had more title defenses, but Ali faced much stiffer opposition in the divisions richest era. He also had to adapt his style after 1967-70 to be competitive. He basically had two brilliant careers. He may not have had serious one punch KO power, but he could bang hard enough.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Feb 2006, 09:41

Well it's just opinions. I for one was happy that he placed Archie Moore above Ezzard Charles. But when you see there head to head record some would say it's stupid. However look at some common opponents like Harold Johnson and it becomes more complex. It's simply an opinion. But perhaps not as stupid at is outwardly appears.

There are some here who have done as much research as Sugar and have composed other lists. When they are thought out and supported with logic it's a good debate. But every opinion is challengeable with arguements and counter arguments.

I've heard Bob Foster's Name and Mike Spinks mixed into the "greatest light heavy" equation as well. For me It's Archie Moore.

I agree that Ali should be at the top, I also think that Tunney just might have bested the Rock. But I'm not sure that puts him ahead of him in the ratings of champions.

Take a look at the new year by year analysis of heavys and light heavys here in the database. It's interesting stuff and should spark more than just a few debates.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 22 Feb 2006, 14:22

He had Ezzard Charles at #7, ahead of Foreman who he had at #8, Frazier at #9, and Holmes at #10.
He had Louis at #1 ahead of Ali, and the only explanation he had was that Louis was a hero to his generation.

I actually agree with Sugar about having Tunney in the top though. People seem to dismiss his wins over Dempsey as well as not realizing that he had other heavyweight fights.
He was very impressive against Dempsey, and completely outclassed Heeney after that. Before he beat Dempsey, he fought several other heavyweights, including some fringe contenders. He beat Weinert twice, Spalla, and knocked out Tommy Gibbons. He also won a newspaper victory over Johnny Risko.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 22 Feb 2006, 14:32

Ambling Alp wrote:He had Ezzard Charles at #7, ahead of Foreman who he had at #8, Frazier at #9, and Holmes at #10.
He had Louis at #1 ahead of Ali, and the only explanation he had was that Louis was a hero to his generation.

I actually agree with Sugar about having Tunney in the top though. People seem to dismiss his wins over Dempsey as well as not realizing that he had other heavyweight fights.
He was very impressive against Dempsey, and completely outclassed Heeney after that. Before he beat Dempsey, he fought several other heavyweights, including some fringe contenders. He beat Weinert twice, Spalla, and knocked out Tommy Gibbons. He also won a newspaper victory over Johnny Risko.

ya but risko was very green and gibbons was defintley over the hill(noticeable on film)

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 22 Feb 2006, 14:55

Well, although I think Bert Sugar is retarded when it comes to boxing history, I will defend his list in one regard. It is NOT a head to head list (or so he says). It is accomplishment and historical significance. That made it easier for me to swallow. Then he would go off on a tangent where it definitely sounded like a head to head list.

For accomplishment and historical significance, it is a fair at best list. As a head to head, it is horrible.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 23 Feb 2006, 03:16

..for a witty response, check out mine on sugar's top one hundred list.

buzzy...i love the mongoose too...but when it comes to rating common opponents... harold johnson fought charles when ezzard was way way past his prime.....and are you sure you want to compare other common opponents?
..yeah....i'd pick tunney to beat marciano. (surprise!!) but his record as heavyweight is brief and marciano fought his entire career there....and a past his prime charles was a better fighter than a past his prime dempsey.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 23 Feb 2006, 05:11

jaclem,

i must also say charles was robbed vs johnson. i finally saw the fight. i thought charles won.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:12

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Ambling Alp wrote:He had Ezzard Charles at #7, ahead of Foreman who he had at #8, Frazier at #9, and Holmes at #10.
He had Louis at #1 ahead of Ali, and the only explanation he had was that Louis was a hero to his generation.

I actually agree with Sugar about having Tunney in the top though. People seem to dismiss his wins over Dempsey as well as not realizing that he had other heavyweight fights.
He was very impressive against Dempsey, and completely outclassed Heeney after that. Before he beat Dempsey, he fought several other heavyweights, including some fringe contenders. He beat Weinert twice, Spalla, and knocked out Tommy Gibbons. He also won a newspaper victory over Johnny Risko.

ya but risko was very green and gibbons was defintley over the hill(noticeable on film)

BB- You have seen the Tunney-Gibbons fight? How did Tunney look?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 23 Feb 2006, 16:07

..brockton...the decision given harold johnson over charles was the only one i ever heard ezzard complain about... and even then it was with a wistful smile....long after the fact. said it was a real hometowner and even made that opinion to a boxing writer for a magazine....where and how did you see it? i never have and would love to. wasn't ezzard on the floor once? if so, was the fight close enough to give johnson the edge?