With Ricky moving up to welter, this becomes a curious fantasy matchup for me. I remember watching Honeyghans fights with Bumphus, Blocker and Vaca but I was young and I don't have much recollection of his style of fighting.
So I kindly ask any Brits who have the 'advantage' of years on me, Whadya think?
Honeyghan v Hatton?
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dr_devious
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5349
- Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 09:19
Tough one to pick. At his peak Lloyd Honeyghan was the world's best welterweight, although he didnt stay at top world class more than 2 or 3 years. Its hard to say where Ricky's career might end up, hes been very solid so far but then so was Lloyd until he met up with Marlon Starling and Mark Breland. Very close match-up when theyre both at their peaks, Lloyd may have been a bit too big for Ricky, but I'm only guessing here. Ricky is an extremely strong light welterweight, lets see how he gets on against genuine top class welterweights.
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Slapsie Maxie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 08:22
For me, LH's best performance was just pre his defeat of Curry when he stopped Sylvester Mittee ( no slouch himself )
fan of Hatton though I am, I think LH would have been too fast and too clever a fighter for Hatton at that time. He also was prepared to get down and dirty when it mattered, so Hatton's rough stuff would be negated IMHO
That being said, I suspect RH can move up pretty easily to Welter and I can see him carving out a decent niche for himself at the higher weight although, like LH, I don't see him having a protracted reign there because of his style
Slapsie
fan of Hatton though I am, I think LH would have been too fast and too clever a fighter for Hatton at that time. He also was prepared to get down and dirty when it mattered, so Hatton's rough stuff would be negated IMHO
That being said, I suspect RH can move up pretty easily to Welter and I can see him carving out a decent niche for himself at the higher weight although, like LH, I don't see him having a protracted reign there because of his style
Slapsie
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MightyWarrior
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 13284
- Joined: 23 Jan 2003, 14:01
Beating Mittee was a better performance than beating Don Curry??Slapsie Maxie wrote:For me, LH's best performance was just pre his defeat of Curry when he stopped Sylvester Mittee ( no slouch himself )
Slapsie
I don't think so!
We don't know how good Hatton is at 147 yet to be fair - P4P I'd give Hatton the edge, maybe grinding out a win late on.
Honeyghan was no great shakes in the amateurs (licked by Gunther Roomes in the London final...Joey Frost also beat him), and his early pro career was a mixture of sparkouts or long, sloppy bores. But he clicked from '85 to about '87 - really clicked - after which he was on the way down.
Hatton may have clicked (peaked) himself at light-welter. It's hard to compare him with Honeyghan because Hatton is so new to welter. I just know a peak Honeyghan went to the States and brewed up a storm.
Hatton has yet to do something similar.
Hatton may have clicked (peaked) himself at light-welter. It's hard to compare him with Honeyghan because Hatton is so new to welter. I just know a peak Honeyghan went to the States and brewed up a storm.
Hatton has yet to do something similar.
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Slapsie Maxie
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 22 Jun 2004, 08:22
Absolutely and I saw both fights in person!MightyWarrior wrote:Beating Mittee was a better performance than beating Don Curry??Slapsie Maxie wrote:For me, LH's best performance was just pre his defeat of Curry when he stopped Sylvester Mittee ( no slouch himself )
Slapsie
I don't think so!
We don't know how good Hatton is at 147 yet to be fair - P4P I'd give Hatton the edge, maybe grinding out a win late on.
While the Curry fight was fantastic to watch and one of my most memorable nights in boxing, it was not as complete a performance as he put up against Mittee.
In the same way when Barry McGuigan beat Pedroza, it was a fantastic night, but in raw boxing terms it was not as good a performance as he put up against Juan Laporte
There is a big difference between a memorable night and a night of professional exellence
Slapsie
I see what you are saying Ben, but Honeyghans amatuer era was much tougher than hattons. I reckon Lloyd would cut Ricky to ribbons as a pro, and stop him in 9.bennie wrote:Honeyghan was no great shakes in the amateurs (licked by Gunther Roomes in the London final...Joey Frost also beat him), and his early pro career was a mixture of sparkouts or long, sloppy bores. But he clicked from '85 to about '87 - really clicked - after which he was on the way down.
Hatton may have clicked (peaked) himself at light-welter. It's hard to compare him with Honeyghan because Hatton is so new to welter. I just know a peak Honeyghan went to the States and brewed up a storm.
Hatton has yet to do something similar.
The fisher, at that time, was a rival to repton and st pancras. In london you also had the lynn, and my old club westminster, not to mention Lion, Stowe, Caius, Acton etc.
And thats before you think about clubs outside london. There used to be a pretty good club in Wolverhampton a few years ago, as you were driving out of town to the m6 on the left hand side.
Didnt Lloyd fight trevor or ray cattouse in the aba's?
Last edited by KO Artist on 24 Apr 2006, 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
Well, I have to see the Mitee cause Honeyghun was punch perfect vs Curry... He did an excellent job.
Having said that, even though Honeyghun has an excellent work rate... I think Hatton would have been too much (barring cuts).
The Vacca rematch was a great night and Honeyghun fought at 100 miles an hour.... But I don't know how many rounds he could have sustained that pressure. Hatton would have been at him all night with hard ripping shots.
I don't think Hatton is still quite given the credit he deserves for the Tszyu performance, there was pre fight comparisons with Pedroza vs McGuigan... However, Pedroza had shown signs of wear and tear previously and fought like a faded fighter vs Barry - Kostya did well vs Hatton, was winning for large portions of the fight and landed some clean bombs - and Hatton just walked through them.... Thats the praise he hasn't had enough of, his durablity and strength that night. He took bomb after bomb, and Tszyu couldn't budge him.
I'm not sure even if a Prime Tszyu could have done any better, I don't think he was hitting any less hard than earlier in his career and Hatton broke him physically and mentally by taking the shots and coming back with his own.
Having said that, I think Hatton would have to be alot cuter than normal vs Honeyghun - as Honeyghun was one of the best fighters on the ropes Britain has ever produced and had a pumping jab. His head was all over the place making him hard to hit clean.
I would still favour Hatton though to get to him and probably stop Honeyghun (when behind on points) around the 10th or 11th.
Although, a little hard to judge has Hatton might not be half the fighter as a Welter.
Having said that, even though Honeyghun has an excellent work rate... I think Hatton would have been too much (barring cuts).
The Vacca rematch was a great night and Honeyghun fought at 100 miles an hour.... But I don't know how many rounds he could have sustained that pressure. Hatton would have been at him all night with hard ripping shots.
I don't think Hatton is still quite given the credit he deserves for the Tszyu performance, there was pre fight comparisons with Pedroza vs McGuigan... However, Pedroza had shown signs of wear and tear previously and fought like a faded fighter vs Barry - Kostya did well vs Hatton, was winning for large portions of the fight and landed some clean bombs - and Hatton just walked through them.... Thats the praise he hasn't had enough of, his durablity and strength that night. He took bomb after bomb, and Tszyu couldn't budge him.
I'm not sure even if a Prime Tszyu could have done any better, I don't think he was hitting any less hard than earlier in his career and Hatton broke him physically and mentally by taking the shots and coming back with his own.
Having said that, I think Hatton would have to be alot cuter than normal vs Honeyghun - as Honeyghun was one of the best fighters on the ropes Britain has ever produced and had a pumping jab. His head was all over the place making him hard to hit clean.
I would still favour Hatton though to get to him and probably stop Honeyghun (when behind on points) around the 10th or 11th.
Although, a little hard to judge has Hatton might not be half the fighter as a Welter.
Speaking from his adopted homeland of Australia, Kostya Tszyu yesterday admitted his boxing career is a thing of the past.
The former undisputed light-welterweight champion, stopped by Ricky Hatton in Manchester last summer, 37 in September, told a Sydney radio station he would never return to the ring without trainer and friend Johnny Lewis.
Lewis, who pulled Tszyu out against Hatton with three minutes remaining at the MEN Arena last June (shades of Eddie Futch), stated last month he would never support a Tszyu comeback.
Kostya picked up a reported $5m (£2.7m) purse for the Hatton showdown - "...the most money I've ever paid for a fighter outside the heavyweight division," said promoter Warren beforehand.
He clearly doesn't need to fight.
One of the best pound-for-pound fighters of recent times, Russian-born Tszyu made a huge impact in 1991 in Sydney, where he was crowned world amateur champion with a dazzling points win over Vernon Forrest, and where he turned pro with Lewis afterwards.
He proved an equal hit as a pro. In just his fourth fight, he pasted Puerto Rican banger Juan Laporte for 10 rounds. He crushed the normally durable Sammy Fuentes in 54 seconds in his sixth fight; floored the iron-chinned Livingston Bramble on his way to a landslide decision in his 10th outing...
It was all so easy.
Then came his American debut...and Hector Lopez.
The grizzled Mexican, a former Olympic silver medallist, prospect and convict (pistol-whipping his girlfriend's father), badly hurt Tszyu in the fifth round of a punishing 10-rounder at Tampa in 1994. Kostya nicked it on points, and showed more of what he was made of a year later in Las Vegas with a crushing six-round stoppage of Jake Rodriguez for the IBF light-welterweight title.
But Kostya loaded up in early defences. Vince Phillips took advantage with a shock 10-round stoppage for the title in 1997. The ex-champ soon rebounded, and lifted the WBC belt by stopping Mexico's Miguel Angel Gonzales in Miami, also in 10.
He looked sensational in his second tenure as champion. Unification wins over brash southpaws Sharmba Mitchell and Zab Judah, a crushing stoppage of Julio Cesar Chavez, a one-sided routing of Ben Tackie...
Now it really was easy.
Only injuries slowed him. He returned from a 22-month layoff due to shoulder problems to walk through old rival Mitchell in three rounds in Arizona.
The American was down four times before referee Raul Caiz Jnr rescued him in the third.
Then came unbeaten Hatton, who wore down the Aussie veteran in front of 22,000 until Lewis decided enough is enough.
The Hitman was ahead on all three scorecards.
So how do we judge Kostya ? In 13 years as a pro, he lost only to Phillips and Hatton, yes, but more importantly he was the first Russian fighter to gain respect in the States. He surely paved the way for the Klitschkos and others from eastern Europe.
He was groundbreaking.
The former undisputed light-welterweight champion, stopped by Ricky Hatton in Manchester last summer, 37 in September, told a Sydney radio station he would never return to the ring without trainer and friend Johnny Lewis.
Lewis, who pulled Tszyu out against Hatton with three minutes remaining at the MEN Arena last June (shades of Eddie Futch), stated last month he would never support a Tszyu comeback.
Kostya picked up a reported $5m (£2.7m) purse for the Hatton showdown - "...the most money I've ever paid for a fighter outside the heavyweight division," said promoter Warren beforehand.
He clearly doesn't need to fight.
One of the best pound-for-pound fighters of recent times, Russian-born Tszyu made a huge impact in 1991 in Sydney, where he was crowned world amateur champion with a dazzling points win over Vernon Forrest, and where he turned pro with Lewis afterwards.
He proved an equal hit as a pro. In just his fourth fight, he pasted Puerto Rican banger Juan Laporte for 10 rounds. He crushed the normally durable Sammy Fuentes in 54 seconds in his sixth fight; floored the iron-chinned Livingston Bramble on his way to a landslide decision in his 10th outing...
It was all so easy.
Then came his American debut...and Hector Lopez.
The grizzled Mexican, a former Olympic silver medallist, prospect and convict (pistol-whipping his girlfriend's father), badly hurt Tszyu in the fifth round of a punishing 10-rounder at Tampa in 1994. Kostya nicked it on points, and showed more of what he was made of a year later in Las Vegas with a crushing six-round stoppage of Jake Rodriguez for the IBF light-welterweight title.
But Kostya loaded up in early defences. Vince Phillips took advantage with a shock 10-round stoppage for the title in 1997. The ex-champ soon rebounded, and lifted the WBC belt by stopping Mexico's Miguel Angel Gonzales in Miami, also in 10.
He looked sensational in his second tenure as champion. Unification wins over brash southpaws Sharmba Mitchell and Zab Judah, a crushing stoppage of Julio Cesar Chavez, a one-sided routing of Ben Tackie...
Now it really was easy.
Only injuries slowed him. He returned from a 22-month layoff due to shoulder problems to walk through old rival Mitchell in three rounds in Arizona.
The American was down four times before referee Raul Caiz Jnr rescued him in the third.
Then came unbeaten Hatton, who wore down the Aussie veteran in front of 22,000 until Lewis decided enough is enough.
The Hitman was ahead on all three scorecards.
So how do we judge Kostya ? In 13 years as a pro, he lost only to Phillips and Hatton, yes, but more importantly he was the first Russian fighter to gain respect in the States. He surely paved the way for the Klitschkos and others from eastern Europe.
He was groundbreaking.
Don't forget Louis 'kid' Kaplan, Benny Bass and Newsboy Brown they all gained a lot of respect in America during their careers...bennie wrote:Speaking from his adopted homeland of Australia, Kostya Tszyu yesterday admitted his boxing career is a thing of the past.
The former undisputed light-welterweight champion, stopped by Ricky Hatton in Manchester last summer, 37 in September, told a Sydney radio station he would never return to the ring without trainer and friend Johnny Lewis.
Lewis, who pulled Tszyu out against Hatton with three minutes remaining at the MEN Arena last June (shades of Eddie Futch), stated last month he would never support a Tszyu comeback.
Kostya picked up a reported $5m (£2.7m) purse for the Hatton showdown - "...the most money I've ever paid for a fighter outside the heavyweight division," said promoter Warren beforehand.
He clearly doesn't need to fight.
One of the best pound-for-pound fighters of recent times, Russian-born Tszyu made a huge impact in 1991 in Sydney, where he was crowned world amateur champion with a dazzling points win over Vernon Forrest, and where he turned pro with Lewis afterwards.
He proved an equal hit as a pro. In just his fourth fight, he pasted Puerto Rican banger Juan Laporte for 10 rounds. He crushed the normally durable Sammy Fuentes in 54 seconds in his sixth fight; floored the iron-chinned Livingston Bramble on his way to a landslide decision in his 10th outing...
It was all so easy.
Then came his American debut...and Hector Lopez.
The grizzled Mexican, a former Olympic silver medallist, prospect and convict (pistol-whipping his girlfriend's father), badly hurt Tszyu in the fifth round of a punishing 10-rounder at Tampa in 1994. Kostya nicked it on points, and showed more of what he was made of a year later in Las Vegas with a crushing six-round stoppage of Jake Rodriguez for the IBF light-welterweight title.
But Kostya loaded up in early defences. Vince Phillips took advantage with a shock 10-round stoppage for the title in 1997. The ex-champ soon rebounded, and lifted the WBC belt by stopping Mexico's Miguel Angel Gonzales in Miami, also in 10.
He looked sensational in his second tenure as champion. Unification wins over brash southpaws Sharmba Mitchell and Zab Judah, a crushing stoppage of Julio Cesar Chavez, a one-sided routing of Ben Tackie...
Now it really was easy.
Only injuries slowed him. He returned from a 22-month layoff due to shoulder problems to walk through old rival Mitchell in three rounds in Arizona.
The American was down four times before referee Raul Caiz Jnr rescued him in the third.
Then came unbeaten Hatton, who wore down the Aussie veteran in front of 22,000 until Lewis decided enough is enough.
The Hitman was ahead on all three scorecards.
So how do we judge Kostya ? In 13 years as a pro, he lost only to Phillips and Hatton, yes, but more importantly he was the first Russian fighter to gain respect in the States. He surely paved the way for the Klitschkos and others from eastern Europe.
He was groundbreaking.
Honeyghan only got sloppy when his hands went and he started trying to end fights early... at his best he would have outboxed Hatton and probably cut him to bits... Hattons never fought anyone as good as Honeyghan...salaco wrote:Meh, Honeyghan would be overwhelmed by the accuracy and workrate of Hatton...a tough but clear decision...he was pretty sloppy I thought, not far away from a Mayorga - he did have heavy hands though...
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jamesmcdonnell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 45231
- Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 06:11
Thank you James, completely agree.jamesmcdonnell wrote:What Tszyu not as good as Honeyghan? Of course Honeyghan was a bigger man than Tszyu, but Kostya was a fantastic champ.
Even an aging Tszyu - It was still a fantastic performance by Hatton.
Still think that Tszyu was closer to his peak than the weight drained, unmotivated, version of Curry that Lloyd faced. Although I think Honeyghun had the style that might have beaten Curry.
He wouldn't have beaten Tszyu though.
Kostya was good but pound for pound I think Honeyghan was a better all round boxer, faster too... with more the style to beat Hatton, aside from the fact that he was also naturally bigger... I think Kostya is rather overrated as a champion myself... too much inactivity and hot and cold performances... the Honeyghan who beat Curry, Bumphus and Hatcher would have had far too much for Ricky imo...jamesmcdonnell wrote:What Tszyu not as good as Honeyghan? Of course Honeyghan was a bigger man than Tszyu, but Kostya was a fantastic champ.
Not sure about Cattouse. Lloyd's style wasn't suited to the amateurs, anyway. Too flash. I've changed my opinion about Honeyghan having met him. His dress sense is ridiculous, but he's a nice guy. And not a bit punchy.KO Artist wrote:I see what you are saying Ben, but Honeyghans amatuer era was much tougher than hattons. I reckon Lloyd would cut Ricky to ribbons as a pro, and stop him in 9.bennie wrote:Honeyghan was no great shakes in the amateurs (licked by Gunther Roomes in the London final...Joey Frost also beat him), and his early pro career was a mixture of sparkouts or long, sloppy bores. But he clicked from '85 to about '87 - really clicked - after which he was on the way down.
Hatton may have clicked (peaked) himself at light-welter. It's hard to compare him with Honeyghan because Hatton is so new to welter. I just know a peak Honeyghan went to the States and brewed up a storm.
Hatton has yet to do something similar.
The fisher, at that time, was a rival to repton and st pancras. In london you also had the lynn, and my old club westminster, not to mention Lion, Stowe, Caius, Acton etc.
And thats before you think about clubs outside london. There used to be a pretty good club in Wolverhampton a few years ago, as you were driving out of town to the m6 on the left hand side.
Didnt Lloyd fight trevor or ray cattouse in the aba's?
Its nice to hear he's in good shape, I saw him at a fight show a while back and thought his speech had changed a lot from his title days... he's one of those fighters that fought on far too long imo...bennie wrote:Not sure about Cattouse. Lloyd's style wasn't suited to the amateurs, anyway. Too flash. I've changed my opinion about Honeyghan having met him. His dress sense is ridiculous, but he's a nice guy. And not a bit punchy.KO Artist wrote:I see what you are saying Ben, but Honeyghans amatuer era was much tougher than hattons. I reckon Lloyd would cut Ricky to ribbons as a pro, and stop him in 9.bennie wrote:Honeyghan was no great shakes in the amateurs (licked by Gunther Roomes in the London final...Joey Frost also beat him), and his early pro career was a mixture of sparkouts or long, sloppy bores. But he clicked from '85 to about '87 - really clicked - after which he was on the way down.
Hatton may have clicked (peaked) himself at light-welter. It's hard to compare him with Honeyghan because Hatton is so new to welter. I just know a peak Honeyghan went to the States and brewed up a storm.
Hatton has yet to do something similar.
The fisher, at that time, was a rival to repton and st pancras. In london you also had the lynn, and my old club westminster, not to mention Lion, Stowe, Caius, Acton etc.
And thats before you think about clubs outside london. There used to be a pretty good club in Wolverhampton a few years ago, as you were driving out of town to the m6 on the left hand side.
Didnt Lloyd fight trevor or ray cattouse in the aba's?
Not a hope, Curry would have clowned him worse than Starling did. Its a great mystery how Curry just turned shit (comparatively) in the space of one fight, Honeyghan played his part but the stage was set for him.stujones wrote:Although I think Honeyghun had the style that might have beaten Curry.jamesmcdonnell wrote:What Tszyu not as good as Honeyghan? Of course Honeyghan was a bigger man than Tszyu, but Kostya was a fantastic champ.
.
Now, Tszyu could have had problems with Honeyghan, particularly the younger Tszyu who got beaten down by Phillips...the older one would have coasted to a decision (p4p)...
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jamesmcdonnell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 45231
- Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 06:11
You think Bumphus and Hatcher are impressive names?silkov wrote:Kostya was good but pound for pound I think Honeyghan was a better all round boxer, faster too... with more the style to beat Hatton, aside from the fact that he was also naturally bigger... I think Kostya is rather overrated as a champion myself... too much inactivity and hot and cold performances... the Honeyghan who beat Curry, Bumphus and Hatcher would have had far too much for Ricky imo...jamesmcdonnell wrote:What Tszyu not as good as Honeyghan? Of course Honeyghan was a bigger man than Tszyu, but Kostya was a fantastic champ.
Lloyd did very well to go over and beat Curry, but Curry was in a bad way by fight night, and you could see that he just wasn't prepared for a hard night's work. You could say the same about Tszyu, but Kostya gave Ricky some serious hard licks in rounds 3,4,5,6,7, and it looked like he was going to bash Ricky up at one point. Curry was never in the fight at all.
Honeyghan was nowhere near as accurate as Tszyu and didn't have the same sniper like deadly punching either.
Well Honeyghan did beat Curry didn't he?... and the Honeyghan who beat Curry was a different fighter to the one who was beaten by Starling...salaco wrote:Not a hope, Curry would have clowned him worse than Starling did. Its a great mystery how Curry just turned shit (comparatively) in the space of one fight, Honeyghan played his part but the stage was set for him.stujones wrote:Although I think Honeyghun had the style that might have beaten Curry.jamesmcdonnell wrote:What Tszyu not as good as Honeyghan? Of course Honeyghan was a bigger man than Tszyu, but Kostya was a fantastic champ.
.
Now, Tszyu could have had problems with Honeyghan, particularly the younger Tszyu who got beaten down by Phillips...the older one would have coasted to a decision (p4p)...
People are always making excuses for Currys defeat to Honeyghan but the truth is Honey was unfazed by him and never let him get into the fight... Curry was probably just as weight drained for other title fights that he won at 147. You could make simular excuses for Honeyghan losing to Starling... he was basically a one-handed fighter by then...jamesmcdonnell wrote:You think Bumphus and Hatcher are impressive names?silkov wrote:Kostya was good but pound for pound I think Honeyghan was a better all round boxer, faster too... with more the style to beat Hatton, aside from the fact that he was also naturally bigger... I think Kostya is rather overrated as a champion myself... too much inactivity and hot and cold performances... the Honeyghan who beat Curry, Bumphus and Hatcher would have had far too much for Ricky imo...jamesmcdonnell wrote:What Tszyu not as good as Honeyghan? Of course Honeyghan was a bigger man than Tszyu, but Kostya was a fantastic champ.
Lloyd did very well to go over and beat Curry, but Curry was in a bad way by fight night, and you could see that he just wasn't prepared for a hard night's work. You could say the same about Tszyu, but Kostya gave Ricky some serious hard licks in rounds 3,4,5,6,7, and it looked like he was going to bash Ricky up at one point. Curry was never in the fight at all.
Honeyghan was nowhere near as accurate as Tszyu and didn't have the same sniper like deadly punching either.
Hey, he won - no question...I just don;t think it was a question of styles..it was just the night it was...silkov wrote:Well Honeyghan did beat Curry didn't he?... and the Honeyghan who beat Curry was a different fighter to the one who was beaten by Starling...salaco wrote:Not a hope, Curry would have clowned him worse than Starling did. Its a great mystery how Curry just turned shit (comparatively) in the space of one fight, Honeyghan played his part but the stage was set for him.stujones wrote: Although I think Honeyghun had the style that might have beaten Curry.
.
Now, Tszyu could have had problems with Honeyghan, particularly the younger Tszyu who got beaten down by Phillips...the older one would have coasted to a decision (p4p)...
..and although Honeyghan had faded somewhat by the time of Starling, I don;t think it would have made much difference, he was made to order