Top 15 middleweights of all time - Revised

[Eric the Viking]

This is in response to the other thread on this which degenerated into a Euros vs. Yanks flame war about Cerdan vs. LaMotta - since it's an interesting topic, let's try this again, shall we?

***IMPORTANT NOTE: ***
Since junior and super middleweight have had some great fighters since their inception but lack the historical pedigree of pure middleweight, to include more-recent fighters who arguably either spent more time just below MW (e.g. McCallum and Trinidad) or just above it (Jones Jr., Calzaghe) in divisions that didn't exist in the old days, for the purpose of ATG consideration let's expand the definition of "middleweight" to encompass the range from 154 to 168 lbs. (junior to supermiddle).
**********************

Gentlemen - your revised lists, please.

(And keep the one-note flamewar crap out of it - if you thought Cerdan was better than LaMotta, fine - order your list to reflect that, then shut the f*** up and let somebody else have their say.)

(And no, this doesn't mean that I'm back - I just this particular topic was interesting enough to briefly step back in. 'Bye now).

[JC]

Welcome back Eric

[DoubleM]

My thoughts, views and opinions change on a regular basis. Here's my updated list.

Head-to-head

1. Marvelous Marvin Hagler
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Ray Robinson
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Marcel Cerdan
6. Charley Burley
7. Dick Tiger
8. Rodrigo Valdez
9. Roy Jones
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Mickey Walker
12. Gene Fullmer
13. Tony Zale
14. Emile Griffith
15. Jake LaMotta

(I had to restrict it to just 160lbs fighters rather than 154 and 168 as well, and I only ranked fighters I have seen on film).

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

My thoughts, views and opinions change on a regular basis. Here's my updated list.

Head-to-head

1. Marvelous Marvin Hagler
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Ray Robinson
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Marcel Cerdan
6. Charley Burley
7. Dick Tiger
8. Rodrigo Valdez
9. Roy Jones
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Mickey Walker
12. Gene Fullmer
13. Tony Zale
14. Emile Griffith
15. Jake LaMotta

(I had to restrict it to just 160lbs fighters rather than 154 and 168 as well, and I only ranked fighters I have seen on film).

i like that list manassa, except no way should tony "very overated" zale should be on that list. lamotta would have killed him

i like the ranking of fullmer! did u revise ur thoughts on him a bit?



* my only real problem is why cerdans # 5 yet lamotta # 15??

[Autobarn]

I would not put Hearns or Jones in. Hearns Kod by Hagler & Barkey/beat Roldan big deal. Jones beat a green, raw Hopkins and Jorge Castro, solid but not top 15.

McCallum deserves a mention for below top 10, for beating some extremely tough and difficult contenders in Watson (fine classical boxer built like a light heavy, who had mangled up Benn), Collins, Kalambay (splitting fights with master technician), & Graham (a superb southpaw, despite being known as a nearly man Herol did beat Kaylor, Kalule, was robbed in rematch w Kalambay, & beat future titlist Lindell Holmes)

And Toney KO'd Nunn and whether you agree with the scoring or not, drew with and beat McCallum. Despite some controversial wins, Toney beat both of Hagler's heir apparents.

[Autobarn]

McCallum doesn't get his just due, but I don't think it's right for him to get that due at the expense of Roy Jones.

by all means Jones can be ranked in super middle and light heavy lists, as well as multi weight champ lists. but he didn't do that much at middle

[Autobarn]

But most people here don't rank the junior- and super- divisions. Jones was basically a middleweight when he went up to 168 to fight Toney.

jones was actually a massive super middleweight. at middle he was 180-lbs after the weigh-in, bigger than most opponents as he admitted on the subject of jones-hopkins (see hopkins v simon brown HBO telecast) his advantage.

now, if he's going to be ranked with ppl like monzon, hagler etc, it's worth wondering- without his 20-lb gain, which made him an awesome physical force, how impressive would he have been. i.e. actually having to be 160 day of the fight? imo we would see a different jones for certain

also, i can't allow for jones' accomplishments above middle to have a bearing on his middle ranking

also, he didn't go out of his way to fight the best 1990-92 middles. there were a lot of superb fighters and he waited for the division to thin out before making his move. smart thing to do, and i don't blame him, but that's another factor that would hurt his all time 160 ranking

[barry]

>>>also, he didn't go out of his way to fight the best 1990-92 middles. there were a lot of superb fighters and he waited for the division to thin out before making his move. smart thing to do, and i don't blame him, but that's another factor that would hurt his all time 160 ranking<<<

He didn't wait for certain fighters to get old. His father held him back a lot more than he should have, but Jones faced arguably the best middleweight of that era in James Toney and easily beat him. When he was a middleweight it was the other fighters that didn’t want to have anything to do with Jones and not the other way around!

[barry]

>>>Vitali Klitschko, whose hobbies include playing chess, taking gay pictures with his brother and bleeding, was caught using an illegal substance at the 1996 Olympics<<<

Did you really write that?

[barry]

I know he took steroids...I'm talking about the gay pictures with his brother...why don't you post that over at klitschko.com

[Autobarn]

>>>also, he didn't go out of his way to fight the best 1990-92 middles. there were a lot of superb fighters and he waited for the division to thin out before making his move. smart thing to do, and i don't blame him, but that's another factor that would hurt his all time 160 ranking<<<

He didn't wait for certain fighters to get old. His father held him back a lot more than he should have, but Jones faced arguably the best middleweight of that era in James Toney and easily beat him. When he was a middleweight it was the other fighters that didn’t want to have anything to do with Jones and not the other way around!

his father definitely did hold him back. i would have loved to see him in with JD Jackson (pre Castro), J Jackson, Benn, Kalambay, a 35 yo McCallum, Reggie Johnson (in his proper division, middle), Nunn. it was a brilliant time for middles, 88-92. but in his case, Jones was young & wasn't going to make a move til he was ready

[barry]

About the only middleweights of that era that I could see as having a chance against Jones would be Julian Jackson and Gerald McClellan. Jackson only hope would be to land a bomb, but I always felt that McClellan had the size and strength and speed to deal with Jones.

[Autobarn]

About the only middleweights of that era that I could see as having a chance against Jones would be Julian Jackson and Gerald McClellan. Jackson only hope would be to land a bomb, but I always felt that McClellan had the size and strength and speed to deal with Jones.

i don't know, there were a lot of skilled men, though mccallum, graham, jd jackson, j jackson, kalambay were all really jr middles, and jones weighed closer to light heavy so rj would've had some advantages. i think a peak Nunn (the one who showed up for Roldan, Barkley, Paker, Tate, Kalambay) would've beaten RJ, but Nunn lost his focus too soon.

problem with jackson he had terrible eyesight after that retina operation and then made worse in the graham fight. in jackson-mclellan I, carl king was giving jackson directions!

[Autobarn]

Of course he was a big weight cutter, but 180? Are you sure about that? I remember hearing him talking about gaining 10 to 15 pounds between the weigh-in and fight night when he was at 160, but 20 is quite a bit. When he first started out at 175, a lot of the fighters (like Virgil Hill) seemed much bigger than he was.

Weight cutting has always bothered me when discussing all-time rankings. Here's an article I wrote about it three years ago:

One thing to consider in fantasy matchups is the size of the fighters and the current practice of day-before weigh ins. How can you compare Shane Mosley and Benny Leonard at lightweight when the former entered the ring at 150 pounds while the later entered at 133? Benny Leonard lost to a 147 pound Jack Britton (admittedly, he was past his prime and many said their first to no-decisions went Leonard’s way), so how would he do against an even larger, much faster Mosley? How would Duran do? How would Armstrong do? Does this mean Mosley is one of the top 5 lightweights of all time?

http://www.boxeopro.com/images/shane_mosley23.jpg
Sugar Shane Mosley: All-time great?

When Max Kellerman said he'd pick Roy Jones over Ray Robinson at middleweight, he raised a few eyebrows, but his rationale was that Jones was a much bigger fighter. When Robinson fought at middleweight in his prime, he weighed about 154 pounds, while Jones stepped into the ring at 170 or so. One big problem I have with Kellerman's predictions is that he often uses size as an end-all. Jones beats Robinson because he's bigger. Ruiz beats Jones because he's bigger, Corrales beats Mayweather because he's bigger, anyone in the top 10 today beats Rocky Marciano because they're bigger, and Lennox Lewis beats Joe Louis because he's bigger. We know how bad his record is at predicting current fights based on this principle, so I don't think we should give much credence to how he picks fantasy fights based on it.I think Ray Robinson beats Roy Jones. Ray outboxed Joey Maxim in 100+ degree heat only to lose to the temperature, and Joey Maxim was a great fighter. Moore and Charles definitely got the better of him, but Roy Jones was very young when he was at 160 and I don't think that version of Roy Jones would be too much more formidable than a prime Maxim at light heavyweight. Maxim was very quick for a light heavyweight and was an excellent boxer. He didn’t have much power, but he made up for it with his incredible skill in the ring and his unmatched fortitude and toughness.

http://www.antekprizering.com/robinson154.jpeg
Robinson collapsing during the Maxim fight

The reason why I tend to ignore the day-before weigh in rule is that it's more trouble than it's worth. How far do we go? Do we compare Floyd Mayweather with Emile Griffith at lightweight, supposing that with "modern training methods" Griffith could briefly dehydrate down to 135 and be 147 by the time the bell rang? Do we make Rocky Marciano a middleweight and match him up with Bernard Hopkins? Today's weight cutting methods are much more advanced than Archie Moore's Australian diet, and today’s fighters use them to their advantage. Vitamin loading will squeeze plenty of water out of you, making your skin paper thin, clinging to your muscles like a body builder. And don't forget that there are plenty of substances of dubious origin that do the job as well, like ephedra Most people who do fantasy booking have an agenda. When The Ring compared Naseem Hamed with the best featherweights in history, they were trying to show that the Prince wasn't all that. When the same publication matched Roy Jones up with historical light heavyweights, they wanted to push Jones as an all time great, saying that he'd beat Archie Moore by decision, and that only the true greats like Ezzard Charles and Michael Spinks would outbox him. Go to the Mike Tyson forum at Boxing Talk, see how they do fantasy matchups and laugh. The only reason they open topics like "Ali vs. Tyson" is to find a new way to jerk off to their favorite boxer. Finally, a lot of people make fantasy matchups to show that modern fighters are better than old time fighters, or vice-versa. In the end, we really can't tell. How can you even the playing field between Rocky Marciano and Vitali Klitschko? Do you let Marciano take steroids and become a 220 pound killing machine? That would be pretty scary. Or do you allow each fighter the generally acceptable fouls of his own era? Klitschko gets steroids, but Marciano gets elbows inside, holding and hitting and the mob? In the end, it's futile.

http://www.brama.com/sports/thumbs/0212 ... vitali.jpg
Vitali Klitschko, whose hobbies include playing chess, taking gay pictures with his brother and bleeding, was caught using an illegal substance at the 1996 Olympics

yeah Jones Jr said 180, saying that Hopkins could make junior middle if he wanted & that he knew he would've been far too big for Hopkins, broken hand or no. like i say, he admits it on Hopkins-Brown telecast