Most people over-look Tommy Burns, as well as the other titlists of the early decades. I think Burns in alot of ways is judged unfairly by his loss to Jack Johnson, arguably the greatest Heavyweight champion of all time.
At only 5'7" and 170 pounds at best, Burns dominated much larger men with relative ease. For his size he had unusually long arms and packed a powerful punch. His skills at best were just behind the all-time greats.
Born Noah Brusso, he did not adopt the alias Tommy Burns until after he almost killed a man in 1904 in a bout. Since he was deemed too small to face off with heavyweights he challenged middleweights, facing some of the all-time greats and gaining recognition as the Michigan State and Pacific Coast Middleweight champion.
In 1906 he faced Marvin Hart "The Fighting Kentuckian", who recently laid claim to the vacated Heavyweight title that Jim Jefferies had recently retired, by beating Jim Root. He won the decision relatively easy.
Burns had 11 title defenses of his crown, beating men around the world, and could possibly be called the first "true" champion of the world, as he defeated champions in the United Kingdom, Australia, France and of course America.
Even after Burns lost his title to Johnson he gained recognition as the British Empire and Australian Heavyweight champion, by winning those titles in 1910 with a decision over Bill Lang.
He continued to make comebacks until 1920, though in his last fight he was knocked out in pursuit of the British Empire title a second time.
Burns Greatest and Memorable and/or Significant Opponents:
1.) Jem Roche- Champion of Ireland
2.) Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
3.) Arthur Pelkey- "White Heavyweight" titlist
4.) Jack (Twin) Sullivan
5.) Mike Schreck
6.) Bill Squires- Australian Champion
7.) Marvin Hart
8.) Jack Johnson- (at the time) World Negro Heavyweight champion
9.) Bill Lang- British Empire/Australian champion
The Roche fight, at one time, held the world record for the fastest knockout in a Heavyweight title match.
Squires was a 10-9 favorite over Burns, but was knocked out in the 1st. Ironically he faced Burns two more times, failing, only to later become Burns sparring partner.
Alot of Burns opponents can't be over-looked. Even Gunner Moir, who is considered by most as being a "great white" hopeful, was flattened by Burns easily---while Moir would later on face Billy Wells and knock the British champion and world title hopeful flat on his face.
Myself I rank Burns inside the top 15 Heavyweight champions. What are your views?
O'Brien and Sullivan are among the greatest Middleweights of all time, often known to challenge for titles in heavier divisions.
Tommy Burns
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HomicideHenry
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dr_devious
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HomicideHenry
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I think it's a fair statement. He might be remembered very differently if he'd have campaigned as a LH or a MW for all his career. I'm surprised nobody ever gives him a mention on p4p listsIrishRufusMurphy wrote:I'm just saying all around he was a very good fighter. Maybe not an all-time great champion, but over-all a great fighter.
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Ambling Alp
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Collins2000
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Re: re
You included.barry wrote:>>>I'm surprised nobody ever gives him a mention on p4p lists<<<
I agree! Problem is...most people just do not know anything about him, the fighters he fought, or the era he fought in!
Re: re
Not a cricket statement, this is a 3 point deduction and will remain on your permanent boxrec record.Collins2000 wrote:You included.barry wrote:>>>I'm surprised nobody ever gives him a mention on p4p lists<<<
I agree! Problem is...most people just do not know anything about him, the fighters he fought, or the era he fought in!
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Collins2000
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Re: re
I'm not particularly worried about that, mate. This is small potatoes. Every time your pal deletes one of my posts, expect to see me respond. If I find my response is also deleted (and I know it will be as he owns you) then I will have some fun of my own. You and your buddy will be busy. By the way, do either of you 2 jackasses have a job? You seem to be on here all day and night. Get a life.BoxBuzz wrote:Not a cricket statement, this is a 3 point deduction and will remain on your permanent boxrec record.Collins2000 wrote:You included.barry wrote:>>>I'm surprised nobody ever gives him a mention on p4p lists<<<
I agree! Problem is...most people just do not know anything about him, the fighters he fought, or the era he fought in!
re
Collins---Why don't you get a life instead of constantly crying about the smack-down I laid on you a few months ago...it's really pathetic...especially since you don't have the ability to rectify it...you're just constantly making such an ass out of yourself that honestly I don't have to do anything except watch you implode, but as to your threads...as I have told you before, and as you are very aware of by now, if I chose to, I could delete every little thread you have ever posted and there is not a thing you could ever do about it...other than whine and cry...and we all certainly know fully how well that you can whine and cry! Go ahead and post all the nonsense you want...you'll be booted faster than you can make an idiot of yourself...well, not that! But now you are going after other moderators instead of just me, which just shows your total ignorance and your un-ability to get along with others.
P.S. Buzz---I told you it wouldn't be a week before Collins2000 was back to whining and crying his same old song and dance, just as he always does...it hasn’t even been a week…you owe me a drink now!
P.S. Buzz---I told you it wouldn't be a week before Collins2000 was back to whining and crying his same old song and dance, just as he always does...it hasn’t even been a week…you owe me a drink now!
Ok back to boxing. I dont know if Burns was great but he certainly doesnt get the credit he deserves. Since when is it a knock on a guy that hes an overachiever? Overachievers are great for boxing and there arent enough of them around today. If the sport had more guys like Tommy Burns today there would be a lot more interest in it. I think Burns looks pretty good in the footage I have of him (barring his last fight against Beckett).
re
That's the thing though Klompton...you do know about Burns and the fighters of his era. Some others, although they try to pretend, have not a clue in the world about the era other than what the records in the database say, or maybe the minute, or two clip they saw on ESPN Classic!
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HomicideHenry
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For one let's really analyze Burns opponents.
Mike Schreck "Klondike" was one of the best southpaw Heavyweights of his time. I heard one person in this thread say Burns was "scared shitless" of Schreck. This isn't the case. Burns up until Schreck had never fought a southpaw, let alone ever seen or heard of southpaws. This man himself had destroyed Marvin Hart, Jack Sullivan and had several wars with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien. If you look at Schreck's record for most of his career he never faced men of great records, I suspect mostly that was due to his southpaw style, and how, still to this day, fighters usually duck them. Which is why he never got many shots at real fighters.
Jack (Twin) Sullivan This man was one of the leading contenders for the Middleweight title, as well as a division jumper. Sullivan faced such fighters as Joe Jeanette, Stanley Ketchell, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Charles (Kid) McCoy, Jim Flynn and countless others. He was just right behind the all-time great Middleweights in history.
Jem Roche This fighter is awfully hard for me to judge by, as his record is incompleted and sketchy. It makes me believe that since Roche was the champion of Ireland, yet faced Burns in his first professional bout, Roche must have been a bareknuckle champion, but failed as a fighter under the Marquis of Queensbury.
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien This man arguably was the best of the division jumpers. He lost controversial fights to such men as Jack Johnson while he was a Heavyweight. He was the Light Heavyweight champion, by knocking out former Middleweight and Heavyweight champion Bob Fitzsmimmons. Faced countless times for the Middleweight crown, losing in efforts to Stanley Ketchell. He faced every top flight contender there was, including black fighters Jack Blackburn and Sam Langford.
Arthur Pelkey Won recognition of the "White Heavyweight" title by beating Luther McCarty. A somewhat large Heavyweight, but failed to become a major prospect after losses to Gunboat Smith and Jack Dempsey. Would say he is the modern equvilant of Tommy Morrison or Duane Bobick.
Billy Squires Was a very hard puncher, and was so popular that he was a 10-9 favorite over Burns when they fought. Though he lost by KO in the 1st, he managed to get two more title shots at Burns, losing each time. He beat Roche and faced off with several contenders, though after his loss the first time to Burns, he never was the same. I would say he would be a modern day Bob Mirovic.
Marvin Hart This is another man over-looked in the history books. He beaten Jack Johnson, Jack Root, Gus Ruhlin, and drew O'Brien and gave Schreck hell. He faced alot of great fighters, maybe even more than Burns did---and though these days he is considered a title claimer, Hart did beat contenders that Jefferies dismantled, so he was truly a top man, title claimer or not.
Bill Lang This man was certainly no bum. He beaten former triple crown champion Fitzsimmons, Squires, Pelkey and faced a slew of top Heavyweight contenders. Though he failed to step up into the world's stage of the elite best, he gave alot of those fighters a hard time. He knocked down Burns in his two title shots, to show his power.
Though looking at his record he has many losses, you have to figure after Jefferies had retired, almost every fighter at Heavyweight started claiming he was the true champion---there were alot of great fighters in that mix.
It wasn't until after Johnson was champion, that the real circus began as everybody from bricklayers to circus sideshow freaks were proclaiming they were the champion.
While the true title was with Johnson, the division was split in half with a "great white hope" tournament with such men as Willard, Morris, Kaufman, Flynn fighting for the crown as "White Champion".
In short, what I am saying is, virtually everybody after Jefferies retirement were top contenders---if you held a title, you were a contender, no matter how little your record was. The division was so wide open, as it is today, that men from smaller weight classes were making the leap to Heavyweight for the chance to reign supreme and the big cash.
Mike Schreck "Klondike" was one of the best southpaw Heavyweights of his time. I heard one person in this thread say Burns was "scared shitless" of Schreck. This isn't the case. Burns up until Schreck had never fought a southpaw, let alone ever seen or heard of southpaws. This man himself had destroyed Marvin Hart, Jack Sullivan and had several wars with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien. If you look at Schreck's record for most of his career he never faced men of great records, I suspect mostly that was due to his southpaw style, and how, still to this day, fighters usually duck them. Which is why he never got many shots at real fighters.
Jack (Twin) Sullivan This man was one of the leading contenders for the Middleweight title, as well as a division jumper. Sullivan faced such fighters as Joe Jeanette, Stanley Ketchell, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Charles (Kid) McCoy, Jim Flynn and countless others. He was just right behind the all-time great Middleweights in history.
Jem Roche This fighter is awfully hard for me to judge by, as his record is incompleted and sketchy. It makes me believe that since Roche was the champion of Ireland, yet faced Burns in his first professional bout, Roche must have been a bareknuckle champion, but failed as a fighter under the Marquis of Queensbury.
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien This man arguably was the best of the division jumpers. He lost controversial fights to such men as Jack Johnson while he was a Heavyweight. He was the Light Heavyweight champion, by knocking out former Middleweight and Heavyweight champion Bob Fitzsmimmons. Faced countless times for the Middleweight crown, losing in efforts to Stanley Ketchell. He faced every top flight contender there was, including black fighters Jack Blackburn and Sam Langford.
Arthur Pelkey Won recognition of the "White Heavyweight" title by beating Luther McCarty. A somewhat large Heavyweight, but failed to become a major prospect after losses to Gunboat Smith and Jack Dempsey. Would say he is the modern equvilant of Tommy Morrison or Duane Bobick.
Billy Squires Was a very hard puncher, and was so popular that he was a 10-9 favorite over Burns when they fought. Though he lost by KO in the 1st, he managed to get two more title shots at Burns, losing each time. He beat Roche and faced off with several contenders, though after his loss the first time to Burns, he never was the same. I would say he would be a modern day Bob Mirovic.
Marvin Hart This is another man over-looked in the history books. He beaten Jack Johnson, Jack Root, Gus Ruhlin, and drew O'Brien and gave Schreck hell. He faced alot of great fighters, maybe even more than Burns did---and though these days he is considered a title claimer, Hart did beat contenders that Jefferies dismantled, so he was truly a top man, title claimer or not.
Bill Lang This man was certainly no bum. He beaten former triple crown champion Fitzsimmons, Squires, Pelkey and faced a slew of top Heavyweight contenders. Though he failed to step up into the world's stage of the elite best, he gave alot of those fighters a hard time. He knocked down Burns in his two title shots, to show his power.
Though looking at his record he has many losses, you have to figure after Jefferies had retired, almost every fighter at Heavyweight started claiming he was the true champion---there were alot of great fighters in that mix.
It wasn't until after Johnson was champion, that the real circus began as everybody from bricklayers to circus sideshow freaks were proclaiming they were the champion.
While the true title was with Johnson, the division was split in half with a "great white hope" tournament with such men as Willard, Morris, Kaufman, Flynn fighting for the crown as "White Champion".
In short, what I am saying is, virtually everybody after Jefferies retirement were top contenders---if you held a title, you were a contender, no matter how little your record was. The division was so wide open, as it is today, that men from smaller weight classes were making the leap to Heavyweight for the chance to reign supreme and the big cash.
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Ambling Alp
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First of all, It should be pointed out that Burns never actually beat either Schreck or Sullivan.
Roche has only win on record, and Squires and Pelkey were tomato cans.
(The comparison to Tommy Moorrison is silly. Not that Morrison was that great, but he was much better than Pelkey. Even Bobick was better than Pelkey)
Lang was ok, but his biggest win was over Fitzsimmons who was 46 years old at the time.
This leave us with O'Brien and Hart as Burns biggest wins. They are nice wins, but nothing spectacular if you are trying to compare Burns to most other heavyweight champions.
Burns never fought Jeanette or Langford; probably because he knew he would have almost no chance. When Burns fought Johnson,he was completely dominated.
This isn't meant to trash Burns; he is an underrated fighter by many people, and as mentioned before got the most out of his ability. Just wanted to give a bit of realism.
Roche has only win on record, and Squires and Pelkey were tomato cans.
(The comparison to Tommy Moorrison is silly. Not that Morrison was that great, but he was much better than Pelkey. Even Bobick was better than Pelkey)
Lang was ok, but his biggest win was over Fitzsimmons who was 46 years old at the time.
This leave us with O'Brien and Hart as Burns biggest wins. They are nice wins, but nothing spectacular if you are trying to compare Burns to most other heavyweight champions.
Burns never fought Jeanette or Langford; probably because he knew he would have almost no chance. When Burns fought Johnson,he was completely dominated.
This isn't meant to trash Burns; he is an underrated fighter by many people, and as mentioned before got the most out of his ability. Just wanted to give a bit of realism.