Muhamad Ali's "lost years".....

phil · Post by **phil** » 28 May 2002, 09:52

Who do you think ALI would have fought in 1968, 1969/70?

Wasn'r Thad Spencer due to meet him?

Who do you think would have fought him and what might have been the results?

Phil

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 28 May 2002, 10:13

Ali had pretty much already cleared out the division. He might have had to do a Louis style bum of the month tour.

Possible opponents he would have beat include, Spencer, Boone Kirkman, Leotis Martin, Henry Clark, Jack O'Halloran etc etc.

Bladder · Post by **Bladder** » 28 May 2002, 12:48

He would have fought Frazier a lot sooner ..... and still lost.

phil · Post by **phil** » 29 May 2002, 04:09

Interesting......surely ALI would have won..on points probably.

Would he have fought Big Al Jones? Did he "avoid" him because he was a southpaw?

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 29 May 2002, 10:18

Ali had already begun his bum of the month tour before he was banned; he fought a couple of has beens and a couple of never weres. Only decent fighter was Ernie Terrel. Not entirely Ali's fault because the division wasn't that strong halfway during the sixties.

Brute From Oz · Post by **Brute From Oz** » 04 Jun 2002, 12:46

Well said Taz,

Ali was poetry in motion and I am sure he would have
either outpointed or put Frazier away the first time if
not for the enforced layoff. How would Frazier have faired
if the roles were reversed.

Who knows ???

Noone does !!!!

Brute From Oz

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 08 Jun 2002, 00:25

Ali was human, he wasn't a super fighter. Watch his videos. He was lucky to beat Henry Cooper and Doug Jones when he was young. Both were older than him and both weighed about 182. He lost all three fights to Ken Norton(the second was the closest), a very ordinary fighter, he lost to Joe Frazier when Frazier was still good. The other two fights were between two guys who weren't as good as they were in March of 1971. Frazier never fought well again, it wasn't because he had lost his ability, just that the hunger was gone. He never got into the best condition again. Watch any Frazier fight after the first Ali fight and Joe was heavy, he gained at least 10 pounds and it was all in his mid section. Joe looked bad against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander, he just wasn't the same. Ali never dominated when he fought the heavyweights that were his size, the 6-3, 210 guys like Norton, Lyle, Young, etc. The Liston fights were controversial, the Foreman fight is controversial, the Shavers decision is controversial. Ali lost to a guy who had 7 fights (Leon Spinks) and weighed about 195.

This is not to denigrate Ali, I like him and I admire the way he is dealing with his health problems. He just was not a super man. He has some good wins on his record, most of them are controversial, but they are there. He also has a lot of skeletons in the closet. I just don't believe that when future generations evaluate Ali's boxing skills that he will be seen as the greatest. He was great in terms of being recognized by the non boxing fan and he interested the non boxing fan in the sport, but his fighting ability just doesn't match the reputation. Watch the video evidence and decide for yourself.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 06 Jul 2002, 17:29

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 06 Jul 2002, 21:54

tantum. who was the greatest in your mind. i would love to here who it was. and why was that person the greatest. the taz.

fatcity · Post by **fatcity** » 23 Aug 2002, 12:20

We never got to see how good Ali would have got due to his exile, but if we look at him in his prime pre exile (1967) and at his beat post exile (1974/75) and put the two together we can get a good idea.
Had he not been banned Ali would have grown more powerful and resourceful and retained much more of the blinding speed.
After his exile Ali was stronger and cleverer but had lost much of his speed and reflexes. Sure Ali was human but thats just the point. Here is a man robbed of his best years and much of his ability having to face probably with out doubt the best collection of Heavyweights of all time.
Ali's greatest gifts were his ring cleverness and his courage and that is why he was able to beat the best in the 70s when he was already past his best. Had he not been banned I feel that Ali would have dominated the division like Joe Louis did in the 30s and 40s. And Alis opponents were much more dangerous and talented than Louis'.
Joe frazier would not have beaten a pre-exile Ali, as it was I don't think that Frazier ever really recovered fully as a fighter after his first fight with Ali. I think Ali is the greatest because whoever the opponent he could find a way and the will to win.
Lewis would not have lasted the distance with him.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 29 Aug 2002, 00:54

maybe now somebody (anybody!) will go to my "greatest fighters we never saw " post re:Ali. There were a lot of fights in which I thought Ali was given an edge just because he was Ali, and I suppose you can go to his poorer fights, and all greats have them, to make an argument against his greatness. Nevetheless, look at the list of the guys he fought. He had so much natural talent that in many ways he never really learned the subtle aspects of the craft, but he found a way to win, and against every style imaginable. Sadly, by exposing his body to show he could take the shots, and having that great chin, he won the battles and lost the war. Now, after all that praise, I'll stir up a cauldron. I believed when I saw it, and still believe it, that he tanked the fight against Spinks to avoid having to fight Ken Norton.Well, maybe tanked is too strong a word; let's just say he didn't give it all that he could have.

Ridiculous_Ray · Post by **Ridiculous_Ray** » 24 Sep 2002, 19:59

someone said ali would have kayoed LL... ri-ght

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 25 Sep 2002, 05:07

You could also make a case for George Foreman being the greatest of all time, by combining the best qualities of both versions. It's nice to speculate what that fighter would have been like, but point is, that fighter never existed and remains purely a fantasy.
My personal opinion is the '70 's Muhammad Ali was a much better fighter than the '60's version. The fighter that barely got by Henry Cooper and Doug Jones would never have beaten the likes of Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and George Foreman. He'd have been too small and without much of a punch. He developed those qualities later on, when he became a bit bigger and sat down on his punches more instead of dancin' and prancin' around the ring all night. What I'm trying to say is that you can't combine the best qualities of both Ali versions because one went at the cost of the other. Just as in the case of George Foreman you can't combine Big George's ferociousness of the '70's and his patience of the '90's at the same time.

Trajan · Post by **Trajan** » 04 Nov 2002, 12:32

As to whom Ali would have fought 1967-70 if not for his enforced layoff: I'd certainly agree on Thad Spencer (probably), Leotis Martin (very possibly)...maybe even Eduardo Corletti (who tried to get a fight with Ali even during the exile).

Eddie Machen? Ali never got around to fighting him either, yet iirc he was on his way out by that time.

Most likely Ali would have won all these fights...but I always say there's nothing absolutely certain when discussing possible matches with heavyweight contenders.

As someone else posted, Ali might also have fought Frazier before 1971 in this scenario (and IMO would still have lost, though who really knows...).

phil · Post by **phil** » 05 Nov 2002, 05:20

How did Corletti try to fight him?

What was the background behind this?

Phil

Trajan · Post by **Trajan** » 27 Nov 2002, 17:43

IIRC the background was in the RING magazine of the time, 1967, but I'll do my best to approximate what I remember of it:

Basically, it first had to do with the RING's (1967) rankings of heavyweights. These rankings, rightly or wrongly, were used as the basis for the tournament to find a successor to Ali as (WBA) champion...with the top eight boxers each getting an invitation to the tournament. Eduardo Corletti at that time had been on a roll (as you'll see by examining his record), winning many consecutive fights, and again as you'll see by checking RING records was ranked at number eight. His seeding would have improved when both Joe Frazier and Manuel Ramos declined their WBA tournament invitations (Frazier took the easier path of fighting Buster Mathis for the other half of the title, Ramos likely to fight the Frazier-Mathis winner).

However...Corletti also declined his WBA invitation, he felt obviously that a fight with Muhammad Ali himself would be the biggest payday he'd ever see (much bigger than any WBA tournament fights). Also, Ali was still considered by many as the "real" champion so a fight against him would have the prestige and honor that a bout with Jimmy Ellis, Jerry Quarry et al. lacked...win, lose or draw. With connections and popularity in both Argentina and Italy (he was IIRC from an Italian-Argentine heritage), Corletti then set about challenging Ali and attempting to arrange this fight (I don't recall all the specific details). The reasoning was that Ali was banned from fighting in the US but Ali-Corletti in Argentina or Italy could be brought off. Indeed, I think many such possible Ali fights were discussed during 1967-70.

But, passport considerations aside, Ali really wanted to make any comeback in the US...and of course eventually did so. Ali-Corletti never happened, even though Corletti did become "South American Heavyweight Champion" circa. 1969. His career started to go downhill after that (he fought Quarry, among others, and lost).

Anthony

sweetsci · Post by **sweetsci** » 27 Nov 2002, 21:43

Weren't some additional Ali fights in the planning stages (at least) in 1967? I recall reading that an Ali-Bonavena fight was cancelled and an Ali-Patterson rematch was in the works.

phil · Post by **phil** » 28 Nov 2002, 05:21

I thought his next fight was do to be against Thad Spencer......??

Marcellus · Post by **Marcellus** » 26 Dec 2002, 16:47

To knock Ali because of the Doug Jones fight is ridiculous, he was just 21 at the time and only weighed 198. He was not into his prime. Same with Cooper. Later on, he showed a terrific chin.

Ali fought and beat the best in the best era of the heavies, ever. Way better than Joe Louis or competition after. He is the greatest heavy (not the greatest boxer, that is Robinson).

Ali was just hitting his prime in March of 67, the Folley fight. He had the blinding speed and was getting bigger and stronger. 4 years later, when he fought Frazier, he was past his peak. He would have fought Frazier and Bonavena and annhilitated them both. Frazier would have fought Ali early in 68(he was the top contender then,and fought Mathis for the New York "championship.") In 68, the Ali who could still float and sting would have just taken Joe apart. No way Joe gets close to him and lands many punches. 3 years later, Ali lost a lot of footspeed and some handspeed,too. Ali knocked guys out by landing barrages, and without the hand speed, he could not do much damage. He never had much power. But at his floating and stinging best, he easily beat Frazier and Bonavena,as well as Thad Spencer, Jerry Quarry, and a rematch with Patterson.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 15 Jun 2005, 13:24

Lewis appears to have a 4 inch reach advantage over Ali which seems significant.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 15 Jun 2005, 13:38

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Lewis appears to have a 4 inch reach advantage over Ali which seems significant.

Any reach advantage Lewis may have had over Ali would have been nullified by Ali's greater speed and accuracy.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 15 Jun 2005, 15:17

sammy_2005 · Post by **sammy_2005** » 15 Jun 2005, 19:38

Ali had the moves. He was patient in the match. His moves were quick. Ali was a great and maybe the greatest boxer in his day. There's things about Ali that will always make him known and a well talked about boxer of his time.

jab · Post by **jab** » 15 Jun 2005, 20:34

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Lewis appears to have a 4 inch reach advantage over Ali which seems significant.

only 1 inch more. 84 to Alis 83. Hardly significant. Besides, Alis speed advantage will have won him the jab war with Lewis and Lewis will have lost by ko in 13-14 one sided rounds. Ali didnt have the power to finish a still fresh Lewis, but his constant jabbing, combos and counters flurried to Lewis head will have taken their toll and Lewis will have been gassed, cut, bled and eventually stopped late.

Sorry, but Lewis couldnt handle a great jab or great speed. And Ali had both.

THE DANCING MASTER · Post by **THE DANCING MASTER** » 15 Jun 2005, 23:41

I believe Ali had signed for a rematch with Floyd Patterson right before he was banned for refusing the draft. There was also talk of him fighting a fellow out of Cincinnati named Billy Joiner during the layoff. Joiner was a good, solid fighter who fought Ali in the Golden Gloves, and if I am not mistaken, outpointed him. IIRC, contracts were even drawn up, but the whole thing fell through.

Muhamad Ali's "lost years".....

Muhamad Ali's "lost years".....

Ali

ali.

Ali the lost years

Ali's "lost years"

Ali-Corletti

lewis

Re: lewis

Re: lewis