As remarkable as some comebacks are, it surprises me that some people often forget that there was men in the past who surpassed George Foreman when it came to career lengths and successful comebacks.
Case in point, Walter Edgerton "The Kentucky Rosebud", who at one time was under speculation to be the champion of the world as he beaten a champion (sorry I forget his name atm) in an exhibition bout, came back at the age of 63 to knock out a man 20 years his junior---his prime was in 1902 and he came back in 1916!
The man who puts all record holders to shame, is Jem Mace "The Gypsey" who fought from Middleweight to Heavyweight during the bare-knuckle era. His career spanned over 35 years, and though BoxRec can't take in account of his complete record in those 35 years, this man was competively fighting the best there was at Middleweight and Heavyweight to the age of 59! His last documented fight was for the British Heavyweight title against Charlie Mitchell, who would later face John L. Sullivan a number of times for the American/World Bare-Knuckle title.
Another man who had a very successful longetivity rate was "Speckled Bob" Bob Fitzsimmons, who was boxing's first triple crown champion, who held the Middleweight, Heavyweight and Light Heavyweight titles throughout his 30 year career---he won the Light Heavyweight title at age forty! He competively fought on into the age of 51.
There have been other successful comebacks in the modern day, such as Ray leonard's comeback over Marvin hagler, or Sugar Ray Robinson's many comebacks winning the Middleweight crown, or even Edore Jofre's comebacks.
ANy of you think of any great comebacks that proved successful after many years in exile?
Comebacks & Longevity
re
Bobby Dobbs had a long career. Roberto Duran, Saoul Mamby, Jeff Malcolm. A lot of the bare-knuckle fighters had long careers, Bill Richmond for example and Larry Foley, Joe Couburn and Joe Goss. This would be a good list to compile...all fighters that fought during a span of at least 20+ years. It should be a pretty good size list!
Archie Moore came back from several very bad losses and gruelling fights against great, great, great opposition, the kind that ruin most other fighters after one encounter. Yet he still fought at world class level until he was nearly fifty years old... Moore was a ring marvel. We see men like Meldrick Taylor ruined after one tough battle, but Moore came through several only to achieve massive success in his late thirties.
I started a related thread a few years ago with some interesting information on it.
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13760
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13760
re
>>>Archie Moore came back from several very bad losses and gruelling fights against great, great, great opposition, the kind that ruin most other fighters after one encounter<<<
Thats how it is with boxers nowadays, but in Moore's time, and before, fighters we always coming back after tough losses. A lot of the fighters of today are through after one, or two tough losses, which in a lot of cases, it's when the boxer steps up in class. Fighters of today are a lot more fragile than the older fighters, which is a big reason why you have so many boxing fans that are a lot more fond of older boxing!
Thats how it is with boxers nowadays, but in Moore's time, and before, fighters we always coming back after tough losses. A lot of the fighters of today are through after one, or two tough losses, which in a lot of cases, it's when the boxer steps up in class. Fighters of today are a lot more fragile than the older fighters, which is a big reason why you have so many boxing fans that are a lot more fond of older boxing!
re
I don't really know, but I would guess that a lot has to do with the amount of bouts a fighter has today! They just do not fight enough. A fighter today loses a bout and it takes him three, or four years to make the ground back up, that is if he ever does make it up, because he has only fought 6 to 10 times in those three years whereas the old fighters were a lot of the time right back in the ring the following week and then they had fought six times in three months instead of three years. It's a little different with being knocked out today because you have to wait like 30 days before you can fight again if you are KO'd! This would make a pretty interesting topic.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I think Jake LaMotta said it best, concerning the difference between the fighters of his time and the era that is now. He more or less pointed out that, even if you lost a fight, you still were in shape and could fight again the next week---he pointed out that today's fighters more or less train for one fight and then get back out of shape and then have to retrain.
Which I guess in many ways would be more tiring than losing and still be in shape and take a fight the next week or month. Plus I think it has to do with pay days, the fighters back then had to work their asses off to make a living in it---they more or less loved the sport more than anything---today the fighters get a big fat pay day and wont fight for a long while, and of course have to re-train.
Which I guess in many ways would be more tiring than losing and still be in shape and take a fight the next week or month. Plus I think it has to do with pay days, the fighters back then had to work their asses off to make a living in it---they more or less loved the sport more than anything---today the fighters get a big fat pay day and wont fight for a long while, and of course have to re-train.
For all the talk of "nutritional" and training advances... What LaMotta said is basically true. Many fighters today are constantly back and forth with their weight, and "shape".
And this is the major cause of most of their damage.
Guys who constantly struggle to make weight (because they either fight at a lower weight than they should, or they gain 30-50+lbs between fights) are almost always the ones that burn out quicker.
A guy like Hopkins, who probably stays in the gym all the time and doesn't gain weight between fights... Is able to fight at top level until the age of 42(and beyond, if he wanted to)
A guy like Ricky Hatton (Or Cotto)will probably burn out in a few years, because there's this magical thing... It's called dehydration... It f'ucks up your entire system... Most notably, your central nervous system. When you are dehydrated, you get dizzy easy, easily lose your balance(among other things, like lack of focus, slower reflexes). And when you're dehydrated, you are not only causing damage, but you are leaving yourself more susceptible to damage (as in a boxing match).
So all of these "advances" are not only nullified, but reversed... By the mentality of fighters (well, people in general, actually)... (It's the "American" way!)
I think the "lack" of current talent has more to do with this fact, than the pool of fighters being smaller.
If only we had more fighters that have the training ethics of Hopkins, or Mayweather... But it will never happen... Not in our society.
And this is the major cause of most of their damage.
Guys who constantly struggle to make weight (because they either fight at a lower weight than they should, or they gain 30-50+lbs between fights) are almost always the ones that burn out quicker.
A guy like Hopkins, who probably stays in the gym all the time and doesn't gain weight between fights... Is able to fight at top level until the age of 42(and beyond, if he wanted to)
A guy like Ricky Hatton (Or Cotto)will probably burn out in a few years, because there's this magical thing... It's called dehydration... It f'ucks up your entire system... Most notably, your central nervous system. When you are dehydrated, you get dizzy easy, easily lose your balance(among other things, like lack of focus, slower reflexes). And when you're dehydrated, you are not only causing damage, but you are leaving yourself more susceptible to damage (as in a boxing match).
So all of these "advances" are not only nullified, but reversed... By the mentality of fighters (well, people in general, actually)... (It's the "American" way!)
I think the "lack" of current talent has more to do with this fact, than the pool of fighters being smaller.
If only we had more fighters that have the training ethics of Hopkins, or Mayweather... But it will never happen... Not in our society.
Excellent post. The general malaise of the western world is easy living and complacency.Tantum wrote:For all the talk of "nutritional" and training advances... What LaMotta said is basically true. Many fighters today are constantly back and forth with their weight, and "shape".
And this is the major cause of most of their damage.
Guys who constantly struggle to make weight (because they either fight at a lower weight than they should, or they gain 30-50+lbs between fights) are almost always the ones that burn out quicker.
A guy like Hopkins, who probably stays in the gym all the time and doesn't gain weight between fights... Is able to fight at top level until the age of 42(and beyond, if he wanted to)
A guy like Ricky Hatton (Or Cotto)will probably burn out in a few years, because there's this magical thing... It's called dehydration... It f'ucks up your entire system... Most notably, your central nervous system. When you are dehydrated, you get dizzy easy, easily lose your balance(among other things, like lack of focus, slower reflexes). And when you're dehydrated, you are not only causing damage, but you are leaving yourself more susceptible to damage (as in a boxing match).
So all of these "advances" are not only nullified, but reversed... By the mentality of fighters (well, people in general, actually)... (It's the "American" way!)
I think the "lack" of current talent has more to do with this fact, than the pool of fighters being smaller.
If only we had more fighters that have the training ethics of Hopkins, or Mayweather... But it will never happen... Not in our society.
re
I couldn't agree more about the things Tantum stated. Guys like Hopkins do stay in top shape year-round, whereas other fighters do as expug mentioned and train for one fight and then they're physical being goes all to hell. Another thing that should be mentioned is putting more focus on sparring. Sparring is good and has it's perks, but when it comes time to face someone for real what has the fighter really learned during sparring...how to hit an opponent...sure, but they're defense gets very little workout.
re
Here is the list that Mike compiled and posted a couple of years ago:
Layoffs of 10 years or More
Fighter Layoff Comments
Doc Odum 22 yrs. 11 mos. Dentist comes back at age 46 after 1 bout in 1956
Freddy DeKerpel 21 yrs. 3 mos. Belgian heavy returns in draw against Coopman
Levi Forte (?)confirm? 20 yrs., 10 mos. Former Floyd Patterson foe returns in 4-round loss
Jerry Evans 20 LH Contender – to be checked
Jean-Pierre Coopman 18 yrs. Former Ali opponent returns against DeKerpel
Bobby Halpern 18 yrs. Clubfighter returned after prison stretch
Carlos Palomino 17 yrs. 6 mos. Former welter champ went 4-1
Kenny Lane 16 yrs., 9 mos. Perennial lightweight contender returned at age 50
Tony Ayala 16 yrs., 9 mos. Rapist went 5-1 before being arrested again
Fred Houpe 16 yrs. 5 mos. Somehow gets licensed after being retired - blind in one eye
Rickey Womack 15 yrs., 3 mos. Former amateur star served 15 years for robbery
Ron Lyle 14 yrs., 5 mos. Scored 4 straight kayos at age 54
Kentucky Rosebud 14 yrs., 1 mo. Returns at age 63 to kayo 45-year-old Johnson
John Henry Johnson 13 yrs., 11 mos.
Julio Serrano 13 yrs 10/16/82—11/3/95
Abdul Muhaymin 13 yrs 1984-1997
“Pee Wee” Suarez 12 yrs., 8 mos. 3/13/82—11/23/94
Mike Leonard 12 yrs. 4 mos. Turn-of-the-century battler tries comeback “well past” age 40
Urban Grass 12 years German lightweight makes 1-bout comeback after WW II
Terry Walker 11 yrs., 8 mos. 0-6, all kayo losses from 4/12/82 thru 5/21/83. Returned on 1/27/95 and is kayoed in one by Oscar Washington. Followed the Washington bout with four consecutive 1-Rd. KO losses.
Holsey Ellingburg 11 yrs., 5 mos. 11/17/82—4/27/94
Mike Baker 10 yrs., 9 mos. Former WBC 154 title challenger. KO’d by Robbie Sims on 7/26/84, returned on 5/12/95-TKO 2 over John Boys.
Danny Lopez 10 yrs., 8 mos. One-fight comeback at age 40
Duane Thomas 10 yrs. 6 mos. WBC 154-lb. Champ returns in April 2000, dies June 2000
Jeff Passero 10 yrs., 4 mos 5/24/83—9/23/93
Moises Fontana 10 yrs., 3 mos 4/10/85—7/13/95
Carmelo Negron 10 yrs., 3 mos. Erstwhile feather prospect returned at age 37
Tommy Farr 10 yrs., 1 mo. Welsh toughman and former Louis foe returned at age 36
Luis Angel Firpo 10 yrs. 1 mo. Wild Bull of the Pampas went 2-1 in Argentina at age 42
Mike Sam 10 yrs., 1 mo. 6/22/85—7/31/95
George Foreman 10 yrs Retired at age 28; regained heavy title at age 45
George Johnson 10 yrs Lightheavy Contender
Pete McIntyre 10 yrs. 4/1/86—4/24/96—Former NABF 175 Champ.
Alvin Hayes 9 yrs. 7 mo.
Longest Gap Between Return Bouts:
22 Years, 5 months: Larry Holmes vs. Mike Weaver -- -- Holmes repeats kayo of Weaver
20 Years, 1 month -- Waban “Tugboat” Thomas vs. Neil Wallace:
Waben Thomas kayoed Neil Wallace twice in 1957; In Dec 1977, Wallace and Thomas were rematched, Wallace winning by KO. (Thomas’s career highlights: losses to Charlie Norkus and Buster Mathis!)
Layoffs of 10 years or More
Fighter Layoff Comments
Doc Odum 22 yrs. 11 mos. Dentist comes back at age 46 after 1 bout in 1956
Freddy DeKerpel 21 yrs. 3 mos. Belgian heavy returns in draw against Coopman
Levi Forte (?)confirm? 20 yrs., 10 mos. Former Floyd Patterson foe returns in 4-round loss
Jerry Evans 20 LH Contender – to be checked
Jean-Pierre Coopman 18 yrs. Former Ali opponent returns against DeKerpel
Bobby Halpern 18 yrs. Clubfighter returned after prison stretch
Carlos Palomino 17 yrs. 6 mos. Former welter champ went 4-1
Kenny Lane 16 yrs., 9 mos. Perennial lightweight contender returned at age 50
Tony Ayala 16 yrs., 9 mos. Rapist went 5-1 before being arrested again
Fred Houpe 16 yrs. 5 mos. Somehow gets licensed after being retired - blind in one eye
Rickey Womack 15 yrs., 3 mos. Former amateur star served 15 years for robbery
Ron Lyle 14 yrs., 5 mos. Scored 4 straight kayos at age 54
Kentucky Rosebud 14 yrs., 1 mo. Returns at age 63 to kayo 45-year-old Johnson
John Henry Johnson 13 yrs., 11 mos.
Julio Serrano 13 yrs 10/16/82—11/3/95
Abdul Muhaymin 13 yrs 1984-1997
“Pee Wee” Suarez 12 yrs., 8 mos. 3/13/82—11/23/94
Mike Leonard 12 yrs. 4 mos. Turn-of-the-century battler tries comeback “well past” age 40
Urban Grass 12 years German lightweight makes 1-bout comeback after WW II
Terry Walker 11 yrs., 8 mos. 0-6, all kayo losses from 4/12/82 thru 5/21/83. Returned on 1/27/95 and is kayoed in one by Oscar Washington. Followed the Washington bout with four consecutive 1-Rd. KO losses.
Holsey Ellingburg 11 yrs., 5 mos. 11/17/82—4/27/94
Mike Baker 10 yrs., 9 mos. Former WBC 154 title challenger. KO’d by Robbie Sims on 7/26/84, returned on 5/12/95-TKO 2 over John Boys.
Danny Lopez 10 yrs., 8 mos. One-fight comeback at age 40
Duane Thomas 10 yrs. 6 mos. WBC 154-lb. Champ returns in April 2000, dies June 2000
Jeff Passero 10 yrs., 4 mos 5/24/83—9/23/93
Moises Fontana 10 yrs., 3 mos 4/10/85—7/13/95
Carmelo Negron 10 yrs., 3 mos. Erstwhile feather prospect returned at age 37
Tommy Farr 10 yrs., 1 mo. Welsh toughman and former Louis foe returned at age 36
Luis Angel Firpo 10 yrs. 1 mo. Wild Bull of the Pampas went 2-1 in Argentina at age 42
Mike Sam 10 yrs., 1 mo. 6/22/85—7/31/95
George Foreman 10 yrs Retired at age 28; regained heavy title at age 45
George Johnson 10 yrs Lightheavy Contender
Pete McIntyre 10 yrs. 4/1/86—4/24/96—Former NABF 175 Champ.
Alvin Hayes 9 yrs. 7 mo.
Longest Gap Between Return Bouts:
22 Years, 5 months: Larry Holmes vs. Mike Weaver -- -- Holmes repeats kayo of Weaver
20 Years, 1 month -- Waban “Tugboat” Thomas vs. Neil Wallace:
Waben Thomas kayoed Neil Wallace twice in 1957; In Dec 1977, Wallace and Thomas were rematched, Wallace winning by KO. (Thomas’s career highlights: losses to Charlie Norkus and Buster Mathis!)