Liston circa 58 v Clay 64 who wins ?

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 20 Jun 2006, 12:43

Liston was at his peak knocking out Wayne Bethea and Cleveland williams around 58-60

what would the outcome of his first fight with Clay had been if that Sonny had faced him ????

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 20 Jun 2006, 12:44

http://img72. .us/img72/9416/1 ... 2182wl.jpg

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 20 Jun 2006, 12:44

funso banjo baby wrote:Liston was at his peak knocking out Wayne Bethea and Cleveland williams around 58-60

what would the outcome of his first fight with Clay had been if that Sonny had faced him ????

Ali.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Jun 2006, 13:26

funso banjo baby wrote:Liston was at his peak knocking out Wayne Bethea and Cleveland williams around 58-60

what would the outcome of his first fight with Clay had been if that Sonny had faced him ????

Ali

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 20 Jun 2006, 14:40

Liston, by KO in 7 rounds.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Jun 2006, 14:59

KO Artist wrote:Liston, by KO in 7 rounds.

Not a chance in hell..IF we are talking prime vs prime. Was there a time when the prime Liston could have beaten a young Cassius before he established his game? Sure

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 21 Jun 2006, 05:58

I'd still pick Ali although not so one sided.
The young Ali would always have Liston's number due to his footwork.
For Liston to beat Ali it would have to be an older more stationary Ali.

-KOKid-

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 21 Jun 2006, 06:17

the useful yardstick is Cleveland Williams..... he was a livewire when Liston iced him twice !!! when Ali ko'd Williams (the footage is the most often repeated of Ali's awesome punch power) he was a bullet ridden shell of his former self.....

could the liston jab of the late 50's have got to the fast moving Clay in 64.... there was no rope a dope at this time....could listons relentless pressure and sledgehammer blows have caught up with the louisville lip ???

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 21 Jun 2006, 06:28

I think Clay would KO him.

You can't tell me that Liston was that much "over the hill" when they first met in the ring in the early 60s...

The Bear was still a formidable force even then.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 21 Jun 2006, 09:34

Crease wrote:I think Clay would KO him.

You can't tell me that Liston was that much "over the hill" when they first met in the ring in the early 60s...

Ali made Liston look like he was 60 with his footwork and reflexes.

This would make for the same exact fight. Ali's phenominal speed prevails.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:13

Clay/Ali will always beat Liston. The younger version too fast, the older too tough, too much heart and too much of a steel chin. Liston never beats Muhammad Ali!!!!!

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:25

walshb wrote:Clay/Ali will always beat Liston. The younger version too fast, the older too tough, too much heart and too much of a steel chin. Liston never beats Muhammad Ali!!!!!

here here!

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:35

sockdollanger wrote:
walshb wrote:Clay/Ali will always beat Liston. The younger version too fast, the older too tough, too much heart and too much of a steel chin. Liston never beats Muhammad Ali!!!!!
here here!

And if they fought 10 times???

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:42

Ezzard wrote:
sockdollanger wrote:
walshb wrote:Clay/Ali will always beat Liston. The younger version too fast, the older too tough, too much heart and too much of a steel chin. Liston never beats Muhammad Ali!!!!!
here here!
And if they fought 10 times???

Good question, because that’s how I tend to evaluate matchups like this. I’d say that Ali wins 9 out of 10 times. He’s just a bad matchup for Sonny.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:44

Id agree John L, 9 of 10 seems fair, Id even go 99 of 100, but thats pretty disrespectful to do to Liston who I think is in the top 15 HWs of all time.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:50

sockdollanger wrote:Id agree John L, 9 of 10 seems fair, Id even go 99 of 100, but thats pretty disrespectful to do to Liston who I think is in the top 15 HWs of all time.

Yes, Sonny was an ATG, and I’ve got him my all time top 20. While he was a great HW with not too many flaws, I think that those flaws that he did have were more easily exploitable than the flaws of most of the other ATG HW champs.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Jun 2006, 10:50

I agree chaps. Ali is just bad for Liston, and for Foreman too. These two greats, with all of their aura of invincibility were tailor amde for Ali.

I'd say ali wins 8-9 out of 10 against Liston too.

I do feel that it was a shame the rematch was postponed as Liston in great shape, and knowing what he was up against might have pushed ali much harder.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 22 Jun 2006, 11:00

Liston had to have been let down in that second fight. Working so hard only to be delayed and thrown a curve not to mention Liston had to know he was better than the first fight. Although I dont think he would have won the second, Ali would not have looked invincible. This is all moot however because the 2nd fight was a sham.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 23 Jun 2006, 10:11

A bully like Liston will always lose against someone who does not fear him. That's why Clay/Ali will always beat the guy and that's why I do not really rate Liston. If you were intimidated he wins, but the Dempsey's, Marciano's, Louis', Fraziers, Foremans would all have blown him away

Taylor · Post by **Taylor** » 23 Jun 2006, 17:31

If Machen could last 12 rounds and give Liston some trouble,Then Ali would also even easier.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 24 Jun 2006, 04:38

walshb wrote:A bully like Liston will always lose against someone who does not fear him. That's why Clay/Ali will always beat the guy and that's why I do not really rate Liston. If you were intimidated he wins, but the Dempsey's, Marciano's, Louis', Fraziers, Foremans would all have blown him away

You are very wrong. Liston was not a bully. Research his career a bit more. Youll see.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 26 Jun 2006, 02:01

So what was he?, Clay said it, Dundee said it and the media said it. Oh and the boxing public were saying it. Are we all wrong. He could give it, but Clay proved he couldn't take a fair Whupping!!!

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Jun 2006, 07:22

Before Columbus sailed they said the world was flat...Was that true?

They said man would never walk on the moon...Was that true?

They claimed that Wheaties is the "Breakfast of Champions" is that true?

they say tha........

oops sorry Decagon I got carried away.....you were on a roll there and I got caught up in the moment.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Jun 2006, 10:07

people are not giving a peak late 50s liston enough credit, it will take the best version of ali to beat a peak late 50s liston. a 70s ali would be beaten by a peak liston.

dont forget liston was overweight 218lb out of shape and had slowed down by the time he fought ali in 64 plus he was terribly ring rusty having fought only 8 rounds in the last 3 years! his timing was way off

a peak liston was much faster and more accurate and mobile and in better shape 204-212lb

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 28 Jun 2006, 09:39

I believe a 1958 Liston would give a pretty good account of himself, but a 1964 Ali would always be one step ahead of him. Ali would always respect Liston's strength & power. Liston was not as ring rusty & much hungrier back in 1958. Whitehurst gave him some problems in their fight in October of that year, so it's pretty safe to say Ali would still frustrate the heck out of him. Ali could always take it, even though even he may not have known it because he seldom was hit. Ali inside 10.

Liston circa 58 v Clay 64 who wins ?

Liston circa 58 v Clay 64 who wins ?

Re: Liston circa 58 v Clay 64 who wins ?

Re: Liston circa 58 v Clay 64 who wins ?

I'd say..

Re: I'd say..

Ali 64 vs. Liston 58