Levels Of Past Heavyweights

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 29 Jun 2006, 10:34

A long while ago I tried to categorize the past Hevayweight champions and put them in their right levels compared to others...

I've worked on this for the past few weeks, and its taken me a while but here are my results...

(NOTE: Try not to mock my opinions, but adjust the leagues to suit your own opinion)...

LEAGUE 1: (The Legends)
Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, "Smokin" Joe Frazier, "Big" George Foreman, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, "Iron" Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes.

LEAGUE 2:
John L. Sullivan, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Max Schmeling.

LEAGUE 3:
Gene Tunney, James J. Corbett, James J Jeffries, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Max Baer, Roland La Starza, Primo Carnera.

LEAGUE 4:
Bob Fitzsimmons, Jess Willard, Jack Sharkey, James J. Braddock, Sam Langford, Ingemar Johansson, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, James "Buster Douglas.

LEAGUE 5 :
Leon Spinks, Vitali Klitchsko, Michael Spinks, Riddick Bowe, Shannon Briggs, Michael Moorer, Hasim Rahman, Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, Niklai Valuev.

Anyway, this is my attempt at rying to cut down the class and quality of historys heavyweights...
Please post. I respect all opinions on whcih boxers I may have placed to highly or low.

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 29 Jun 2006, 10:44

Hmmm. This is an interesting way to look at things w/ #s not involved. I see in league 3 you have Lewis, Tunney and Holyfield....Id put them in league 2 and move Patterson and Walcott down in league 3.......

Im sure there are at least a few guys left off the lists all together that I have missed. Ill see if I can figure some names out.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 29 Jun 2006, 10:47

I'd say.

Tyson is not league 1

Tunney, Lewis, Holyfield, Jeffriesd are a minimum of league 2, some of them I'd have in league 1.

Carnera is not league 3, much lower IMO

Patetrson is league 3.

Bowe would be league 2 on talent (when he turns up) but lower on actual achievement.

Some might say Liston is league 1 (I'm not sure)

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Jun 2006, 10:50

lastarza and carnera are not in league 3

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 29 Jun 2006, 10:58

Decagon wrote:Sullivan above Lewis?!?!? Are you high?

Sounds to me like he’s thinking pretty clearly!!

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Jun 2006, 11:02

Ezzard wrote:I'd say.

Tyson is not league 1

Tunney, Lewis, Holyfield, Jeffriesd are a minimum of league 2, some of them I'd have in league 1.

Carnera is not league 3, much lower IMO

Patetrson is league 3.

Bowe would be league 2 on talent (when he turns up) but lower on actual achievement.

Some might say Liston is league 1 (I'm not sure)

Agree on all points except Patterson. Patterson should stay at 2, he fought at the highest level for 15 years.

Willard should be lower than level 3, so should Hart.

But BY FAR the biggest mistake is Sam Langford at level 4. Langford is at least level 2, if not level 1. Similalary, Harry Wills is totally ignored here is Harry Wills - level 3 for sure, if not 2. Add Joe Jeanette at least to level 4 and Sam Mc Vea, George Godfrey to level 5. All of these held versions of the colored heavyweight title during the color line era, and were arguable much better than, say, Marvin Hart.

Btw, if Shannon Briggs enters level 5 so should hundreds of other heavyweights. Also, Briggs didn't hold any title except for a dubious "lineal" claim. La Starza never held any title.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 29 Jun 2006, 11:38

Briggs is a league 7 at best.

I have to agree w/Lennox Lewis being a league one, although I don't rate him as my top ten heavyweights, he was dominant to merit atleast league 2.

Buster Douglas is way high also.

Mike is borderline one and two.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Jun 2006, 14:19

Carnera belongs in the "Little League".

Chuck1052 · Post by **Chuck1052** » 29 Jun 2006, 21:30

I can't agree with Crease's ratings.

- Chuck Johnston

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Jun 2006, 22:22

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen....in no particular order

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Dempsey
Ezzard Charles
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Jack Johnson

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 30 Jun 2006, 05:14

Chuck Johnston,

why don't you make your own 5 leagues so that the rest of us can examine them?

PS. I will modify my leagues in due course HOWEVER, this was only my first attempt to class heavyweights...

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 30 Jun 2006, 05:15

LEAGUE 1: (The Legends)
Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, "Smokin" Joe Frazier, "Big" George Foreman, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, "Iron" Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes.
LEAGUE 2:
John L. Sullivan, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Max Schmeling.
LEAGUE 3:
Gene Tunney, James J. Corbett, James J Jeffries, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Max Baer, Roland La Starza, Primo Carnera.
LEAGUE 4:
Bob Fitzsimmons, Jess Willard, Jack Sharkey, James J. Braddock, Sam Langford, Ingemar Johansson, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, James "Buster Douglas.

LEAGUE 5 :
Leon Spinks, Vitali Klitchsko, Michael Spinks, Riddick Bowe, Shannon Briggs, Michael Moorer, Hasim Rahman, Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, Niklai Valuev.

Lewis and Liston should be in league 1 IMO
Bowe, Holyfield, Jeffries, Wills and Langford should in league 2 on their own, Sullivan and Archie Moore should be lower (not sure Moore should even be ranked as a HW)

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 30 Jun 2006, 05:19

Pundit,

I might agree that I have underrated Sam Langford, (andI'm very aware that Roland LaStarza never held the Heavyweight title).

PLUS

I know that I've left out, Harry Wills, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVea and George Godfrey, I will put slide them in somewhere on the level that they are on. (I will also later look at Jerry Quarry, George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper, etc...)

One last thing, I perosnally don't rate Shannon Briggs or Michael Morrer very highly, but league 5 was the lowest I was going so far + the theme of my thread was judging the past heavyweight champions, so they both had to be in there...

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 30 Jun 2006, 12:53

What the f'uck is with this "league" shit? They're called tiers.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Jun 2006, 16:05

Tantum, everywhere you go you leave a trail of tiers.....

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 30 Jun 2006, 16:31

Achievement's aside, Jersey Joe Walcott is tier/league 1.

When comparing boxers it is really about who beats who, 'peak for peak', you know one VERSUS the other, achievements (champions, title holders) shouldn't even play into it. It's down to skill, consistancy, opposition, determination (drive) and longevity, what the hell does a title have to do with man against man...

You can't judge fairly if you put titles first, especially given the nature of boxing and some greats were to good for champions to risk titles, and there were lots of them especially in the Golden Age with only one champion!

Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles (L-HW) are tier one for example, titles or no titles!

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 30 Jun 2006, 23:22

This is an interesting idea. Here is how I see it:

League 1 - Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson, Frazier,Holmes,Marciano

League 2 - Tunney, Liston, Dempsey, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, Jeffries

League 3 - Langford, Wills, Jeanette, McVey, Patterson, Charles, Walcott, Norton

League 4 - Peter Jackson, Jack Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer, Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sullivan, Michael Spinks, Moorer, Douglas, Mercer

League 5 - Burns, Johansson, Rahman, Ellis, Terrell, Folley, Machen, Williams, Quarry, Young.

Honorable Mention - Vitaly Klitschko, Ray,Tucker, Witherspoon, Tubbs,Smith,Berbick,Thomas,Dokes,Page,Bruno,Weaver,McCall,Tate,ByrdCoetzee, Lyle,Shavers,Tom Sharkey.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Jul 2006, 00:37

Ambling Alp wrote:This is an interesting idea. Here is how I see it:

League 1 - Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson, Frazier,Holmes,Marciano

League 2 - Tunney, Liston, Dempsey, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, Jeffries

League 3 - Langford, Wills, Jeanette, McVey, Patterson, Charles, Walcott, Norton

League 4 - Peter Jackson, Jack Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer, Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sullivan, Michael Spinks, Moorer, Douglas, Mercer

League 5 - Burns, Johansson, Rahman, Ellis, Terrell, Folley, Machen, Williams, Quarry, Young.

Honorable Mention - Vitaly Klitschko, Ray,Tucker, Witherspoon, Tubbs,Smith,Berbick,Thomas,Dokes,Page,Bruno,Weaver,McCall,Tate,ByrdCoetzee, Lyle,Shavers,Tom Sharkey.

league 5 has folley, machen but no archie moore??

archie was a top 10 heavyweight contender for over 10 years, and was a # 1 contender in the mid 50s and cleaned out the division of top contenders in the early 1950s en route to earning a title shot vs marciano. not only did moore clean out the division, he dominated the best contenders of the division like clarence henry, nino valdes, bob satterfield, bob baker, jimmy bivins(1947 since bivins was over the hill in the 50s), harold johnson. thats a helluva win resume. the only 3 heavyweights that were capable of beating moore were patterson, marciano and when ali.

even a 45 year old far past it archie moore knocked out big # 4 ranked alejandro lavorante nearly killing him in the process. the same lavorante who recentley knocked out a PRIME FOLLEY

folley and machen lost to far less heavyweights. moore in his heavyweight prime only lost to ATG's in there primes.

as far as accomplishments goes, moore has a great heavyweight legacy as an all time contender. film only adds to his legacy as archie moore looks excellent on film. the 185lb early-mid 1950s moore was one of the best heavyweight contenders never to win the title.

to prove how good moore was, he beat a prime harold johnson 4 times.

the same harold johnson who years later in his 30s would go on to shutout contender doug jones, and then the 33 year old harold johnson managed to beat a prime eddie machen.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 01 Jul 2006, 10:11

We have been down this road before. Moore has no wins at heavyweight over anyone close to being this list.
Sure guys like Machen and Folley had some losses (which is why I only have them in League 5), but they also had some good results.
Moore's wins over a lightheavyweight Johnson doesn't mean that he should get in because Johnson as a heavyweight beat a guy on this list.

What Archie himself did as a heavyweight simply wasn't that impressive. He had two big chances (against Marciano and Patterson) and got knocked out. If he had taken on and beaten some one like Liston, Johansson, Folley, Machen, or Williams then it would be a different story.

Don't get me wrong, I like Archie a lot and consider him one of the greatest lightheavyweights of all time. (You could even argue the very best). However, if you just look at what he did as a heavyweight, it really isn't that impressive when compared to the other guys mentioned.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 01 Jul 2006, 10:46

As the resident Archie Moore Fanatic I think Alp has this one right. Moore was a pure LHW who dabbled in the HW division. He could have dined on some of the lower tier champion Heavyweigts, been competitive and outshined some of the mid to upper talent in that division but would ultimately come up short against the best of the HW's.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 01 Jul 2006, 23:05

LEAGUE 1: (The Legends)
Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, "Smokin" Joe Frazier, "Big" George Foreman, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, "Iron" Mike Tyson, Larry Holmes.

LEAGUE 2:
John L. Sullivan, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Max Schmeling.

LEAGUE 3:
Gene Tunney, James J. Corbett, James J Jeffries, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield, Max Baer, Roland La Starza, Primo Carnera.

LEAGUE 4:
Bob Fitzsimmons, Jess Willard, Jack Sharkey, James J. Braddock, Sam Langford, Ingemar Johansson, Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, James "Buster Douglas.

LEAGUE 5 :
Leon Spinks, Vitali Klitchsko, Michael Spinks, Riddick Bowe, Shannon Briggs, Michael Moorer, Hasim Rahman, Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, Niklai Valuev.

Tyson should be in league 2, as should Lewis and Holyfield. People on this forum tend to rate Tyson as the lesser of these three champions.

I personally don't believe that Dempsey did enough as champion to be in league 1, but I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me so I won't press that point.

Primo should be in league 4.

Langford should be in at least league 3.

I'd have Jeffries in league 2.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Jul 2006, 23:11

If he had taken on and beaten some one like Liston, Johansson, Folley, Machen, or Williams then it would be a different story.

archie beat jimmy bivins who was just as good if not better heavyweights than folley and machen

folley was not as good as u think, he was knocked out 4 times in his prime by B levle heavyweights johnny summerlin, young jack johnson, alejanro lavorante(who 45 year old moore kayoed) and by light-h doug jones

if doug jones could KO folley imagine what a early 1950s moore would do to folley

moore also beat nino valdes, bob baker, clarence henry all guys who were nearly just as good as machen or folley.

clarence henry was defintley just as good as machen or folley and moore dominated henry in a shutout preformance. henry only lost twice in his prime, too moore and johnson. throw out the slade and especially hurricane jackson losses where henry was blind! he became blind later in his career.

but henry was an explosive puncher with very good skills, and archie dominated him

nino valdes was a big man with skills and archie twice outclassed him the first time winning a wide decision

bob baker was another big man with skills and moore completley dominated him knocking him out in 9 with baker out on his feet after a barrage of punches

if moore could dominate these guys, he would do the same to folley and machen

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Jul 2006, 23:15

If he had taken on and beaten some one like Liston, Johansson, Folley, Machen, or Williams then it would be a different story.

who did folley and machen take on and beat that compares to an archie moore?

moore knocked out jimmy bivins in 1947, a heavyweight just as good if not better than machen and folley

might i add moore won the first 4 rounds of the patterson fight on two judges scorecards. machen lost virtually every round of the 12 round fight vs patterson plus he was knocked down 4 times.

folley was knocked out by alejandro lavorante, a man who 45 year old archie moore nearly killed sending him into a coma!

if light-H doug jones could KO folley, imagine what a prime archie moore would do to folley

archie KO 5 folley

archie unanimous machen

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 02 Jul 2006, 00:11

Former Heavyweight Champion Bruce Seldon owned all three of these levels.

http://www.antiquetools.com/levels/imag ... indles.gif

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Jul 2006, 01:00

Decagon wrote:See, I'm not that big a fan of ranking fighters based on fights they clearly lost. Who cares how many rounds you win if you're on your back for 10 seconds? YOU FUCKING LOST!~

niether do i...........but moores resume at heavyweight speaks for itsself! he was a top 10 contender for over 10 years and beat top heavyweight contenders over the years like hall of famer harold johnson, hall of famer jimmy bivins, big nino valdes, big bob baker, hall of famer clarence henry, huge punching bob satterfield, and even at 45 years old and far past his prime in 1962 moore brutally knocked out # 4 ranked huge punching alejandro lavorante. his only losses at heavyweight were to ATG's muhammad ali, rocky marciano, and floyd patterson. it took an ATG heavyweight to beat moore. folley and machen were not ATG's

moore has a case for being ranked in top 30 heavyweights of all time. he has the resume and on film he has the all around skills/talent/tools

Levels Of Past Heavyweights

Levels Of Past Heavyweights

Re: Leagues

Re: Levels Of Past Heavyweights