Three finest performances of each top 20 all-time great HW

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 01 Aug 2006, 13:37

Perhaps this is another way of looking at the issue, both to determine a fighters' relative standing and to get an idea about when he peaked.

Here is my take, based on my top 20. Comments, views, additions, corrections welcome as always.

JOE LOUIS
Max Schmeling, KO1, 1938
Max Baer, KO4, 1935
Buddy Baer, KO1, 1942
Next comes the Carnera fight of 1935

MUHAMMAD ALI
Cleveland Williams, TKO3, 1966
Ernie Terrell, UD15, 1967
Floyd Patterson, TKO12, 1965
Ali is a difficult case. He fought the best opponents in the 1970s, but made the best fights in the 1960s. All these three were savage beatings.

LARRY HOLMES
Mike Weaver, TKO12, 1979
Trevor Berbick, UD15, 1981
Gerry Cooney, TKO13, 1983
I'm not very sure about my picks here

GEORGE FOREMAN
Joe Frazier, TKO2, 1973
Ken Norton, TKO2, 1974
Joe Frazier, TKO5, 1976
What a resumee

JACK JOHNSON
Jim Jeffries, TKO 15, 1910
Unsure what to put next - Jeanette, Langford were fairly inexperienced when Johnson beat them around 1906, but Burns was never as good as Jeanette, and Fitzsimmons beyond 40 when they met.

SAM LANGFORD
Wins over Wills, Jeanette, Mc Vea in the early 1910s. I wouldn't know what exact fights to pick

LENNOX LEWIS
Andrew Golota, KO1, 1997
Hasim Rahman, KO4, 2001
Donovan Ruddock, TKO2, 1992
Spanning 9 years - wow. The "draw" against Holyfield would come next, however, the above three were devastating performances agasint still very good opponents

SONNY LISTON
Cleveland Williams, TKO3, 1959
Cleveland Williams, TKO2, 1960
Floyd Patterson, KO1, 1962

JOE FRAZIER
Muhammad Ali, UD 15, 1971
Jimmy Ellis, TKO5, 1970
Jerry Quarry, TKO7, 1969

GENE TUNNEY
Jack Demspey, UD10, 1926
Jack Dempsey, UD 10, 1927
Tom Heeney, TKO 11, 1928
Risko in 1925 would come next. Of course, Tunney had even better wins at light-heavyweight

ROCKY MARCIANO
Ezzard Charles, KO8, 1954
Rex Layne, KO6, 1951
Jersey Joe Walcott, KO1, 1953

HARRY WILLS
The wins over Sam Langford in the mid-to-late 1910s probably rank above everything else, including the 1924 Firpo bout

JACK DEMPSEY
Bill Brennan, TKO6, 1918
Fred Fulton, KO1, 1918
Jess Willard, TKO3, 1919
Anyone else troubled when seeing this? Firpo was exciting but showed Dempsey as rather vulnerable. Carpentier, Gibbons are the best fights in the 1920s

MIKE TYSON
Michael Spinks, KO1, 1988
Trevor Berbick, TKO2, 1986
Pinklon Thomas, TKO6, 1987
Tyson dined out on these extraordianry performances for the (almost) next 20 years

FLOYD PATTERSON
Ingemar Johansson, KO5, 1960
Ingemar Johansson, KO6, 1961
George Chuvalo, UD12, 1965

MAX SCHMELING
Joe Louis, KO12, 1938
Young Stribling, TKO15, 1931
Johnny Rikso, TKO9, 1929
Another fellow with prime fights spanning a period of 9 years

EZZARD CHARLES
Elmer Ray, KO9, 1948
Joe Baksi, TKO11, 1948
Joe Louis, UD 15, 1950
Diffcult choices. Charles best fights were at light-heavyweight

EVANDER HOLYFIELD
Mike Tyson, TKO11, 1996
Riddick Bowe, MD12, 1993
Michael Moorer, TKO8, 1997

JERSEY JOE WALCOTT
Ezzard Charles KO7 1951
Ezzard Charles UD 15 1952
Joe Louis LSD15 1947
The Charles fights probably still rank above the narrow contests Walcott hat in 46/47 with Maxim and Ray, even though Charles was already detriorating

JIM JEFFRIES
James Corbett, KO10, 1903
Bob Fitzsimmons, KO11, 1899
Tom Sharkey, PTS 20, 1898
The second Sharkey fight is another candidate

Dempsey1238 · Post by **Dempsey1238** » 01 Aug 2006, 14:30

Its on Rocky Marciano.

I dont think Charles 2 and Walcott 2 were his best fights, both fights were pretty sloppy.

Charles 2 was a BEAT down, and outside of the cut, Charles hardly had a chance, and as for Walcott 2?? Well it was a bad count, a bad fight, and we dont even know if Walcott thown the fight.

My money is on Walcott 1, and Charles 1/Moore.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 01 Aug 2006, 14:36

Dempsey1238 wrote:Its on Rocky Marciano.

I dont think Charles 2 and Walcott 2 were his best fights, both fights were pretty sloppy.

Charles 2 was a BEAT down, and outside of the cut, Charles hardly had a chance, and as for Walcott 2?? Well it was a bad count, a bad fight, and we dont even know if Walcott thown the fight.

My money is on Walcott 1, and Charles 1/Moore.

This is about finest performances, not about most memorable fights. Marciano lost Walcott 1 until Susie Q struck, and he barely scraped by Charles in Charles 1. Hence these fights hardly qualify. Moore maybe, but then Marciano was down in the 2nd.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Aug 2006, 16:47

JERSEY JOE WALCOTT
Ezzard Charles KO7 1951
Ezzard Charles UD 15 1952
Joe Louis LSD15 1947
The Charles fights probably still rank above the narrow contests Walcott hat in 46/47 with Maxim and Ray, even though Charles was already detriorating

walcotts preformance in marciano I was by far his 1st or 2nd best preformance. of course u couldnt put this on there cause this would be helping marcianos legacy

charles 1952? that was not one of walcotts best nights. walcott fought far better in marciano I later in 1952

almost all ringsiders and papers claimed walcott fought one of the best fights of his carer in marciano I, yet u choose to pick charles IV as one of his best preformances when no one thought so?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 01 Aug 2006, 16:51

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
JERSEY JOE WALCOTT
Ezzard Charles KO7 1951
Ezzard Charles UD 15 1952
Joe Louis LSD15 1947
The Charles fights probably still rank above the narrow contests Walcott hat in 46/47 with Maxim and Ray, even though Charles was already detriorating

walcotts preformance in marciano I was by far his 1st or 2nd best preformance.

I guess that's a fair point.

PS: I'd like to see your own listings, if you have time.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Aug 2006, 16:57

editeds

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 01 Aug 2006, 16:58

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:editeds

?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Aug 2006, 17:10

rocky marciano

1. joe louis KO 8 1951
2. jersey joe walcott KO 13 1952
3. Archie Moore KO 9 1955 or KO 6 rex layne 1951

jersey joe walcott

1. Joe Louis L 15 1947
2. rocky marciano KO by 13 1952
3. ezzard charles KO 7 1951

THESE ARE THE 3 EASY CHOICES PUNDIT

ezzard charles

1. elmer ray KO 9 1948
2. Jersey joe walcott W 15 1951
3. Pat Valentino KO 8 1949

HM: Marciano I L 15- THOUGH CHARLES WAS PAST HIS PRIME, IT WAS STILL ONE OF THE BEST PREFORMANCES OF HIS CAREER

JOE LOUIS
Max Schmeling, KO1, 1938
Buddy Baer, KO1, 1942
Arturo Godoy TKO 8 1940

* louis was still green when he dominanted baer and carnera

MUHAMMAD ALI
Cleveland Williams, TKO3, 1966
Ernie Terrell, UD15, 1967
Sonny liston TKO 7 1964

HM: his preformance against george foreman in 1974

LARRY HOLMES

Leon Spinx TKO 3 1981
Earnie Shavers W 12 1979
Trevor Berbick, UD15, 1981

GEORGE FOREMAN
Joe Frazier, TKO2, 1973
Ken Norton, TKO2, 1974
George Chuvalo TKO 3 1970

JACK JOHNSON

Jim Jeffries, TKO 15, 1910
Tommy Burns KO 14 1908
Sam Mcvey KO 20 1904

LENNOX LEWIS
Andrew Golota, KO1, 1997
Hasim Rahman, KO4, 2001
Donovan Ruddock, TKO2, 1992

SONNY LISTON

Wayne Bethea TKO 1 1958
Cleveland Williams, TKO2, 1960
Mike Dejohn , TKO 6, 1959

JOE FRAZIER
Muhammad Ali, UD 15, 1971
Jimmy Ellis, TKO5, 1970
George Chuvalo , TKO4, 1967

GENE TUNNEY
Jack Demspey, UD10, 1926
Jack Dempsey, UD 10, 1927
Tom heeney TKO 11 1928

- tunneys resume isnt special at HW

HARRY WILLS

KO 3 fred Fulton
Wins over sam langford
wins over joe jeanette 1914

JACK DEMPSEY
Bill Brennan, TKO6, 1918
Fred Fulton, KO1, 1918
Jess Willard, TKO3, 1919

MIKE TYSON
Michael Spinks, KO1, 1988
Trevor Berbick, TKO2, 1986
Larry Holmes , TKO4, 1988

FLOYD PATTERSON

Eddie Machen W 12 1964
Ingemar Johansson, KO5, 1960
Archie Moore KO 5 1956

MAX SCHMELING
Joe Louis, KO12, 1938
Young Stribling, TKO15, 1931
Jack Sharkey W 15 , 1932

EVANDER HOLYFIELD
Mike Tyson, TKO11, 1996
Riddick Bowe, MD12, 1993
Buster Douglas KO 3 1990

JIM JEFFRIES
James Corbett, KO10, 1903
Gus Ruhlin TKO 6 1903
Bob Fitzimmons KO 11 title winning preformance

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 01 Aug 2006, 17:18

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:rocky marciano

1. joe louis KO 8 1951
2. jersey joe walcott KO 13 1952
3. Archie Moore KO 9 1955 or KO 6 rex layne 1951

....

OK, will comment on a few picks tomorrow.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 01 Aug 2006, 20:46

Interesting topic.
Overall, i'm in agreement with most what have been listed.
I'm alittle suprised with the fights that were picked for Holmes. I'm suprised that there have been 2 picks for the Berbick fight, and I thought he was having an off night against Weaver. I would say Cooney and Norton for sure, hard to say after that. Maybe Spinks or the first Shavers fight; I always thought he looked good against Ocasio as well.

Holyfield's early heavyweight fights should be considered. His performances against Thomas,Dokes and Douglas were pretty impressive.

For Marciano it's difficult, but I would lean toward the 2nd Charles fight for #1.

Picking 3 for Johnson is almost impossible. There are more than a dozen that seem about even.
Ali had so many it's hard to choose. Louis also had many.

Overall, you guys have made good picks.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Aug 2006, 23:07

you know wut im changing my mind. marciano-charles I is going on one of marcianos top 3 best preformances. marciano showed a punch rate, stamina hes never shown before. his workrate was off the charts in this fight!

after 14 gruelling rounds, marciano was still able to throw over 100 punches in round 15. FUCKIN INCREDIBLE!

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Aug 2006, 23:09

For Marciano it's difficult, but I would lean toward the 2nd Charles fight for #1.

why? marciano was 31 facing an opponent who had been ruined 3 months ago in there june 1954 battle.

i believe marcianos peak was around 1951 where had his full power before goldman changed his style in his later years. he had youthness, speed, and his full power in 1951. marciano really dominanted opponents in 1951 put guys lights out cold with 1-2 punches. marciano had a good cross armed defense in 1951 and worked from the crouch too, and he bobbed and weaved in the louis fight more than any other fight.

the 1951-52 layne, louis, walcott, mathrws fights where marcianos was putting guys out cold with 1-2 punches that was his best IMO

when marcianos style changed in his later years, he lost power. started to throw more arm punches. he didnt get his full body into them like in his earlier years

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Aug 2006, 23:14

listons peak fight was unquestionably the 1958 wayne bethea fight IMO. liston never looked as fast or as accurate

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 02 Aug 2006, 11:20

Here my comments as promised.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
ROCKY MARCIANO
1. joe louis KO 8 1951
2. jersey joe walcott KO 13 1952
3. Archie Moore KO 9 1955 or KO 6 rex layne 1951

I wouldn't put 10-years-beyond-his prime Joe Louis in there, in particular if you want to promote Marciano's standing. And neither Walcott I, a fight Marciano was loosing until Walcott made a mistake.

JJ WALCOTT
1. Joe Louis L 15 1947
2. rocky marciano KO by 13 1952
3. ezzard charles KO 7 1951

Fine with me. Just a bit weird to have two losses in Walcott's 3 finest performances.

EZZARD CHARLES
1. elmer ray KO 9 1948
2. Jersey joe walcott W 15 1951
3. Pat Valentino KO 8 1949

OK.

JOE LOUIS
Max Schmeling, KO1, 1938
Buddy Baer, KO1, 1942
Arturo Godoy TKO 8 1940
* louis was still green when he dominanted baer and carnera

This is contradictory. Max Baer was considered the most dangerous heavyweight in the world in 1935, and Louis annilihated him. As an achievement this ranks above beating Godoy, and also as a fight. If a "green" Louis was able to do this, than a "green" Louis must have been a superb, near-unbeatable heavyweight, and this is normally captured with the word "prime".

MUHAMMAD ALI
Cleveland Williams, TKO3, 1966
Ernie Terrell, UD15, 1967
Sonny liston TKO 7 1964

I didn't put Liston in there because they split the fight evenly for six rounds, and then Liston remained on his seat - Ali has done better things than that. (PS: Foreman 1974 was a great fight but a kind of a freak performance)

LARRY HOLMES
Leon Spinx TKO 3 1981
Earnie Shavers W 12 1979
Trevor Berbick, UD15, 1981

GEORGE FOREMAN
Joe Frazier, TKO2, 1973
Ken Norton, TKO2, 1974
George Chuvalo TKO 3 1970

No quarrels.

JACK JOHNSON
Jim Jeffries, TKO 15, 1910
Tommy Burns KO 14 1908
Sam Mcvey KO 20 1904

Looks like good choices.

LENNOX LEWIS
Andrew Golota, KO1, 1997
Hasim Rahman, KO4, 2001
Donovan Ruddock, TKO2, 1992

We agree.

SONNY LISTON
Wayne Bethea TKO 1 1958
Cleveland Williams, TKO2, 1960
Mike Dejohn , TKO 6, 1959

Who are Bethea and Dejohn compared to Patterson?

JOE FRAZIER
Muhammad Ali, UD 15, 1971
Jimmy Ellis, TKO5, 1970
George Chuvalo , TKO4, 1967

OK

GENE TUNNEY
Jack Demspey, UD10, 1926
Jack Dempsey, UD 10, 1927
Tom heeney TKO 11 1928
- tunneys resume isnt special at HW

Same choices, different assessment. In my view this is pretty impressive, given the short period Tunney was at HW. Add in Risko and Gibbons.

HARRY WILLS
KO 3 fred Fulton
Wins over sam langford
wins over joe jeanette 1914

The Langford wins are way more impressive than Fulton.

JACK DEMPSEY
Bill Brennan, TKO6, 1918
Fred Fulton, KO1, 1918
Jess Willard, TKO3, 1919

We agree, but isn't THIS a rather unspectacular resumee?

MIKE TYSON
Michael Spinks, KO1, 1988
Trevor Berbick, TKO2, 1986
Larry Holmes , TKO4, 1988

I wouldn't put old, unprepared Holmes in there.

FLOYD PATTERSON
Eddie Machen W 12 1964
Ingemar Johansson, KO5, 1960
Archie Moore KO 5 1956

Machen is a good one. Moore - wasn't Patterson losing until the KO?

MAX SCHMELING
Joe Louis, KO12, 1938
Young Stribling, TKO15, 1931
Jack Sharkey W 15 , 1932

Schmeling lost to Sharkey on paper in 1932, and Sharkey was out of shape. Risko or Uzcudun 1929 is more impressive, imo.

EVANDER HOLYFIELD
Mike Tyson, TKO11, 1996
Riddick Bowe, MD12, 1993
Buster Douglas KO 3 1990

OK

JIM JEFFRIES
James Corbett, KO10, 1903
Gus Ruhlin TKO 6 1903
Bob Fitzimmons KO 11 title winning preformance

I don't know about the Ruhlin fight.

Cheers, P

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Aug 2006, 11:29

I wouldn't put 10-years-beyond-his prime Joe Louis in there, in particular if you want to promote Marciano's standing. And neither Walcott I, a fight Marciano was loosing until Walcott made a mistake.

why not? joe louis was a big man with skills in 1951. he was still the # 1 contender and a dangerous fighter. marciano completley dominanted him and knocked him out cold, it was an awesome preformance watch the fight.

so wut if marciano was loosing to walcott, marciano was fighting a helluva fight against the best/near best version of jersey joe walcott . the fight was close. walcott was the best fighter marciano ever faced. marciano then unleashed the single greatest punch of his career. walcott did not make a mistake, marciano set walcott up and knocked him out.

marciano showed speed, inside fighting skills, one punch power, toughness in the walcott fight hes never shown before. marciano was doing very well slipping walcotts jabs.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Aug 2006, 11:39

This is contradictory. Max Baer was considered the most dangerous heavyweight in the world in 1935, and Louis annilihated him. As an achievement this ranks above beating Godoy, and also as a fight. If a "green" Louis was able to do this, than a "green" Louis must have been a superb, near-unbeatable heavyweight, and this is normally captured with the word "prime".

i dont care. this was a joe louis who had only 1 year of pro experience. he may have been there physically. but he didnt have the ring smarts, EXPERIENCE , and boxing skills louis had in the early 1940s. think about it, this was one year before schmeling knocked the still green flawed joe louis out. louis hadnt corrected his flaws yet when he fought baer. it was a great preformance though. the godoy fight shows me louis can completley dominant a crouch pressure fighter. louis corrected his flaws from the first fight and dominanted a very good contender.

perhaps i should put baer-louis in there as joe louis did rate the baer preformance as his best and louis was very dominant its just i think louis had many flaws in 1935 and was very inexerpeinced and schmeling exposed him in 36. the 38-42 louis was much more experience, and a lot less flawed.

i also think u overate max baer.

I didn't put Liston in there because they split the fight evenly for six rounds, and then Liston remained on his seat - Ali has done better things than that. (PS: Foreman 1974 was a great fight but a kind of a freak performance)

ali was winning IMO. it didnt matter, ali was completley embarrasing and schooling a guy everyone thought was unbeatable

Same choices, different assessment. In my view this is pretty impressive, given the short period Tunney was at HW. Add in Risko and Gibbons.

but risko was VERY GREEN when tunney fought him and gibbons was far past his prime. tunney ducked a prime gibbons.

tunney never beat a prime gibbons or a prime risko

We agree, but isn't THIS a rather unspectacular resumee?

jack dempsey beat top 25 heavyweight of all time prime jack sharkey, and this was when dempsey was past his prime. he also beat a near prime tommy gibbons(who tunney ducked in the early 1920s) .

dempsey has a much better HW resume than gene tunney

I wouldn't put old, unprepared Holmes in there.

why not holmes was still a very dangerous fighter in 1987. holmes before this fight and after this fight would NEVER BE KNOCKED OUT. tyson annihalated holmes in 4 rounds. no one ever dominated holmes like that.

a older worse version of holmes gave evander hell for 12 rounds and beat ray mercer

Machen is a good one. Moore - wasn't Patterson losing until the KO?

yes but patterson was NOT supposed to beat moore it was a huge upset. D amato and patterson both rate the moore fight as one of pattersons best preformances

Schmeling lost to Sharkey on paper in 1932, and Sharkey was out of shape. Risko or Uzcudun 1929 is more impressive, imo.

dont gimme that crap that sharkey was out of shape. schmeling legit outboxed the master boxer in sharkey. it was one of schmelings best preformance.

risko or uzcuden is not more impressive than a win over jack sharkey

I don't know about the Ruhlin fight.

it was a dominating preformance by jeffries. ruhlin was a top contender and dangerous one

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Aug 2006, 13:22

pundit, it doesnt matter if bethea was worse than patterson. fact is wayne bethea was a good top 10 contender who would never be stopped before or after the liston fight. liston went out there demonstrting speed and accuracy hes never showed before and destroyed a granite chin ranked contender in 58 seconds! watch the fight, its amazing

patterson froze up vs liston. cus D amato had patterson all fucked up in the head. patterson went into the liston fight knowing he wast gonna win.

i think the first patterson fight was one of listons best preformances, but liston was starting to decline. by 1963 in the 2nd patterson fight, liston looked softer and was slowing down.

hebrew_hammer · Post by **hebrew_hammer** » 03 Aug 2006, 15:22

I think everyone has really captured some of the great performances by each fighter. For Holmes, how about the KO1 over Marvis Frazier? True, Frazier was overmatched, but still a demolition. And for Ali (post exile), should the Norton II fight be mentioned, considering Norton's style was such a problem for Ali? Just some thoughts.