What if Gene Tunney would have stayed around

[pundit]

Who would ahve dethroned him as heavyweight champion - Jack Sharkey in 1929? Max Schmeling in 1930? Max Baer in 1934 (Tunney would have been 36 by then)? Or could Tunney even have stayed champ until Joe Louis came up?

[silkov]

I think Gene could have stayed champion for a good 3 or 4 years... with Baer or Schmeling being the most likely to beat him as he slowed a bit... Maxie I think was too crude so I think if Gene had hung around long enough Schmeling would probably be the one to dethrone him round about '32/'33... though I wouldnt discount Gene fighting off all challengers to '32 and then retiring still champion...

[pundit]

I think Gene could have stayed champion for a good 3 or 4 years... with Baer or Schmeling being the most likely to beat him as he slowed a bit... Maxie I think was too crude so I think if Gene had hung around long enough Schmeling would probably be the one to dethrone him round about '32/'33... though I wouldnt discount Gene fighting off all challengers to '32 and then retiring still champion...

I think both prime Sharkey and Schmeling would have had a decent chance, but on balance I fancy something along your final scenario -

1929 Tunney KO 13 Sharkey
1930 Tunney UD15 Schmeling
1931 Tunney UD15 Stribling
1932 Tunney UD15 Schaaf
1933 Tunney KO6 Carnera

Tunney retires at age 36, and is in the top 5 all-time heavyweight rankings of every boxing fan to this day.

Some will accuse him though of having ducked Maxie Baer, or of not having given Schmeling a rematch.

P

[silkov]

I think Gene could have stayed champion for a good 3 or 4 years... with Baer or Schmeling being the most likely to beat him as he slowed a bit... Maxie I think was too crude so I think if Gene had hung around long enough Schmeling would probably be the one to dethrone him round about '32/'33... though I wouldnt discount Gene fighting off all challengers to '32 and then retiring still champion...

I think both prime Sharkey and Schmeling would have had a decent chance, but on balance I fancy something along your final scenario -

1929 Tunney KO 13 Sharkey
1930 Tunney UD15 Schmeling
1931 Tunney UD15 Stribling
1932 Tunney UD15 Schaaf
1933 Tunney KO6 Carnera

Tunney retires at age 36, and is in the top 5 all-time heavyweight rankings of every boxing fan to this day.

Some will accuse him though of having ducked Maxie Baer, or of not having given Schmeling a rematch.

P

Yeah, I could see him outpointing Baer... he'd be too quick and clever for him... I think Tunney is very underrated these days, which is a shame really... if you compare how differently Tunney and Marciano are rated its quite astonishing as all in all I think Tunney had the more impressive career and I'd pick him to beat Marcinao imo...

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

I think Gene could have stayed champion for a good 3 or 4 years... with Baer or Schmeling being the most likely to beat him as he slowed a bit... Maxie I think was too crude so I think if Gene had hung around long enough Schmeling would probably be the one to dethrone him round about '32/'33... though I wouldnt discount Gene fighting off all challengers to '32 and then retiring still champion...

george godfrey or jack sharkey may have very well dethroned tunney in 1929. tunney got out in 1929 with 4 outstanding challengers out there sharkey, godfrey, schmeling, gains. tunney wanted no part of them. he made sure he had a last easy title defense vs average tom heeney.


considering tunney did not fight black fighters...i would say jack sharkey or max schmeling would beat him in 1930-31

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

I think Gene could have stayed champion for a good 3 or 4 years... with Baer or Schmeling being the most likely to beat him as he slowed a bit... Maxie I think was too crude so I think if Gene had hung around long enough Schmeling would probably be the one to dethrone him round about '32/'33... though I wouldnt discount Gene fighting off all challengers to '32 and then retiring still champion...

I think both prime Sharkey and Schmeling would have had a decent chance, but on balance I fancy something along your final scenario -

1929 Tunney KO 13 Sharkey
1930 Tunney UD15 Schmeling
1931 Tunney UD15 Stribling
1932 Tunney UD15 Schaaf
1933 Tunney KO6 Carnera

Tunney retires at age 36, and is in the top 5 all-time heavyweight rankings of every boxing fan to this day.

Some will accuse him though of having ducked Maxie Baer, or of not having given Schmeling a rematch.

P

heres how i see it


1929

tunney 15 split sharkey
george godfrey TKO 10 tunney



of course tunney would never fight godfrey. but im just saying if tunney were to be a good champion and fight the best contenders out there this is what would happen.

[pundit]

1929

tunney 15 split sharkey
george godfrey TKO 10 tunney

Unlikley that Tunney would have defended twice a year, less likely that Godfrey would ahve gotten a shot, and even less likley that Tunney would have lost to Godfrey.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

1929

tunney 15 split sharkey
george godfrey TKO 10 tunney

Unlikley that Tunney would have defended twice a year, less likely that Godfrey would ahve gotten a shot, and even less likley that Tunney would have lost to Godfrey.

Unlikley that Tunney would have defended twice a year,

not the mark of a good title reign

less likely that Godfrey would ahve gotten a shot,

thats cause tunney didnt fight black fighters. especially a colored fighter who was a young big powerful skilled superheavyweight

and even less likley that Tunney would have lost to Godfrey.

thats a matter of opinion. tunney never took on a big heavyweight...let alone a skilled powerful superheavyweight like godfrey. also tunney would be slipping by 1929 making him more vunerable. godfrey also dealt with a great boxer in gains flattening him in 6.....godfrey appears to do well vs boxers.

[silkov]

1929

tunney 15 split sharkey
george godfrey TKO 10 tunney

Unlikley that Tunney would have defended twice a year, less likely that Godfrey would ahve gotten a shot, and even less likley that Tunney would have lost to Godfrey.

Unlikley that Tunney would have defended twice a year,

not the mark of a good title reign

less likely that Godfrey would ahve gotten a shot,

thats cause tunney didnt fight black fighters. especially a colored fighter who was a young big powerful skilled superheavyweight

and even less likley that Tunney would have lost to Godfrey.

thats a matter of opinion. tunney never took on a big heavyweight...let alone a skilled powerful superheavyweight like godfrey. also tunney would be slipping by 1929 making him more vunerable. godfrey also dealt with a great boxer in gains flattening him in 6.....godfrey appears to do well vs boxers.

Brock, its funny how you attack Tunney for not defending against Godfrey yet defend Dempsey for not fighting Wills..... also Dempsey was hardly the most prolific of defenders of his title... I doubt very much that Godfrey would have beaten Tunney and dont see the unstable Sharkey ever beating Gene...

[pundit]

Brock, its funny how you attack Tunney for not defending against Godfrey yet defend Dempsey for not fighting Wills..... also Dempsey was hardly the most prolific of defenders of his title... I doubt very much that Godfrey would have beaten Tunney and dont see the unstable Sharkey ever beating Gene...

Yeah, Brock is a bit obsessed with this one. I guess it will take some time till his intelligence takes over and he revises this untenable view.

Defending once a year would have been normal to often, by Demsey's standards or quite generally by the standards of the time.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i think a prime tunney would beat godfrey by close decision....but by 1929-30 tunney would be slowing down and would be ripe for the taking by a prime sharkey, prime schmeling, or prime godfrey. but even in tunneys prime godfrey is a very stern test for tunney. it would be very interesting. godfrey was a legit superheavyweight with power skills and speed.




remember tunney was the only heavyweight champion never to fight a black fighter(outside of sullivan)...... and tunney was the only heavyweight champion never to fight a world class big heavyweight. tunney never fought a big heavyweight. godfrey would be a huge test for tunney. tunney never took on a big heavyweight let alone a skilled powerful fast superheavyweight like godfrey.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Unlikley that Tunney would have defended twice a year, less likely that Godfrey would ahve gotten a shot, and even less likley that Tunney would have lost to Godfrey.

Unlikley that Tunney would have defended twice a year,

not the mark of a good title reign

less likely that Godfrey would ahve gotten a shot,

thats cause tunney didnt fight black fighters. especially a colored fighter who was a young big powerful skilled superheavyweight

and even less likley that Tunney would have lost to Godfrey.

thats a matter of opinion. tunney never took on a big heavyweight...let alone a skilled powerful superheavyweight like godfrey. also tunney would be slipping by 1929 making him more vunerable. godfrey also dealt with a great boxer in gains flattening him in 6.....godfrey appears to do well vs boxers.

Brock, its funny how you attack Tunney for not defending against Godfrey yet defend Dempsey for not fighting Wills..... also Dempsey was hardly the most prolific of defenders of his title... I doubt very much that Godfrey would have beaten Tunney and dont see the unstable Sharkey ever beating Gene...

sharkey on his A game was a great fighter. a peak jack sharkey would most certainly have a chance against tunney. he knocked out tommy loughran with 1 punch. a 20 year old loughran fought 8 life and death rounds with a prime tunney. i would most certainly pick sharkey over a decling tunney. prime for prime tunney takes a very close decision but it would be interesting. sharkey seems to handle a fast moving great jabber in tommy loughran well. sharkey knocked master boxer jack delaney out in 1 round. sharkey was literally destroying these great light-heavweights. sharkey seems to match up very well vs tunney and i can see sharkey possibly taking gene...... byu 1929-30 sharkey defintley would take gene


tunney is wayy to unproven at heavyweight

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Brock, its funny how you attack Tunney for not defending against Godfrey yet defend Dempsey for not fighting Wills..... also Dempsey was hardly the most prolific of defenders of his title... I doubt very much that Godfrey would have beaten Tunney and dont see the unstable Sharkey ever beating Gene...

Yeah, Brock is a bit obsessed with this one. I guess it will take some time till his intelligence takes over and he revises this untenable view.

Defending once a year would have been normal to often, by Demsey's standards or quite generally by the standards of the time.

pundit, dont even start. you try to downplay godfrey like he was just another one of those no world beater average white contenders tunney was fighting. ur incredibly in denial with godfrey. u feel hes a threat to tunney so u downplay his abilities.

u say wills was much better than godfrey......but many historians dont agree with u. i believe wills is better but i also believe godfrey is a top 30 heavyweight of all time. and u never commented on the fact post 1924 wills completley ducked george godfrey. he ducked godfrey so blatantly that even the black press harped on wills for this!


u refuse to believe godfrey was on cuffs for a lot of his losses......so it would make it look like godfrey wasnt good enough to beat these guys.


u avoid the fact that wills was 38 and far past his prime by 1925-26 and that the young superheavyweight prime godfrey was clearly by now the best black heavyweight out there.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Brock, its funny how you attack Tunney for not defending against Godfrey yet defend Dempsey for not fighting Wills..... also Dempsey was hardly the most prolific of defenders of his title... I doubt very much that Godfrey would have beaten Tunney and dont see the unstable Sharkey ever beating Gene...

silk.......godfrey and his handlers pleaded with the tunney camp to fight godfrey from 1925-28 and tunney turned them down each time. tunney made it clear he would only fight a old washed up black heavyweight, but when it came to a young prime george godfrey, he was drawing the color line. tunney showed no interest in wanting to fight godfrey.


at least jack dempsey agreed to fight wills. he didnt turn wills down like tunney did to godfrey. dempsey signed to fight wills. tunney never signed to fight godfrey. dempsey showed interest in fighting wills. tunney showed no interest in fighting godfrey. there were 2 top black heavyweights out there in 1924-26......harry wills and george godfrey. tunney said he would only fight the old washed one. he knew a young prime superheavyweight like godfrey was a much more dangerous fight and he wanted no part of it. tunney wanted jack dempseys title and he knew the man that was most dangerous to prevent him from getting that title shot was george godfrey so he refused to fight godfrey.




tunney whole heavyweight career is based off of two wins over a far past his prime jack dempsey and one of the wins is controversial.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

the 1928 tournament to find out who would face gene tunney was a joke. the tournament COMPLETLEY NEGLECTED THE DANGEROUS BLACK FIGHTERS. they made it blantantly clear they wanted to keep godfrey away from tunney as much as possible cause they knew he was the biggest threat to tunney and they didnt want to have another black heavyweight champion.



tex rickard would only put godfrey in the tournament if he thought he could be beaten. in fact rickard thought about pairing up godfrey with knute hanson only if he thought hanson could beat godfrey. but when they told him hanson would have no chance, rickard made sure he didnt put godfrey in the tourney. the tournament also avoided other dangerous black fighters like larry gains and bearcat wright.




bottom line is this: in 1928 there was a top 25 heavyweight of all time in his prime jack sharkey, there was a top 30 heavyweight of all time in his prime george godfrey, and there was a top 50 heavyweight of all time in his prime larry gains. YET TUNNEY DID NOT FIGHT ANY OF THEM. INSTEAD HE CHOSE THE VERY ORDINARY NO WORLD BEATER TOM HEENEY. just think about that. tunney retired with 3 very good heavyweights out there.



tunney never proved at heavyweight he could beat a wide variety of styles. he never proved he could beat a powerful superheavyweight like godfrey, a standup classical boxerpuncher with a great jab like gains, or a all around complete master boxer like jack sharkey.




now dont think im just picking on tunney. i critisize marciano too for this.

[The Great John L]

tunney never proved at heavyweight he could beat a wide variety of styles. he never proved he could beat a powerful superheavyweight like godfrey, a standup classical boxerpuncher with a great jab like gains, or a all around complete master boxer like jack sharkey.

You could say EXACTLY the same thing about almost any HW champ. Marciano never fought a powerful super heavyweight either. Or a tall quick fighter with an exceptional jab. Or a quick powerful swarmer. Or...

Pick another HW champ and try the same thing. It's pretty easy. Except for perhaps Ali and Louis.

[DrDuke]

I guess, nobody would have very big chances to defeat Tunney before Joe Louis. But Louis appeared on the stage, when Gene was old. Maybe actually his decline could help somebody to deal with him, we can only assume such things. But talking about his prime conditions - he was great being in prime. Max Schmeling would have probably performed better than others, it could have been relatively close tactical match.

[BitPlayer]

I think as he aged and slowed someone would have beaten him before Louis. Who would probably mostly depend on who got him once he slipped enough.

[HomicideHenry]

If Tunney showed more interest in fighting George Godfrey than Dempsey had interest in Harry Wills, Tunney may very well have been beaten by the 6'2" 250 pound Godfrey.

When Tunney retired in 1928, Godfrey already had beaten the likes of Uzcudun, Munn, Roper, Gains, Wright, Fulton, Renault, and Tate. His DQ loss to Carnera was a complete injustice (though that occurred in 1930).

The only thing one may argue in Tunney's favor is in 1926 when Godfrey lost a ten rounder to Jack Sharkey. Four fights later Sharkey would lose to Dempsey, when he had been schooling him for six rounds.

In 1926 Gene made Dempsey look incredibly human. By 1927 he obviously slipped (to a degree) as evident by the infamous Long Count. Had he fought on into 1928-1929 he'd of been more hittable.

1928-1929, Godfrey went 15-4 with 1 NC. Three of the four losses were DQ's which was a familiar pattern throughout Godfrey's career even when he was winning fights by wide margins.

What's not on the pro records is the numerous exhibitions that Godfrey had, especially overseas as the EBU Heavyweight Champion. One of which was a devastating knockout win over the 7'4" 320 pound Romanian giant Gogea Mitu.

If ANYONE could have taken Tunney out at that time, it'd of been Godfrey. The only other man who could have was probably Max Schmeling. Sharkey was too inconsistent to take a chance on, and Carnera was powerful but if Sharkey could dance fifteen rounds out pointing the Italian giant, it'd of been no feat for Tunney to have done the same.

[DrDuke]

The only thing one may argue in Tunney's favor is in 1926 when Godfrey lost a ten rounder to Jack Sharkey.

And probably that would have been a crucial factor.

If ANYONE could have taken Tunney out at that time, it'd of been Godfrey. The only other man who could have was probably Max Schmeling. Sharkey was too inconsistent to take a chance on, and Carnera was powerful but if Sharkey could dance fifteen rounds out pointing the Italian giant, it'd of been no feat for Tunney to have done the same.

Yeah. And so he could provide the same performance against Gogrey, I believe. It all depends on Tunney's ability to remain in good shape. It's impossible to figure out, how would he maintain his prime.

[Ambling Alp II]

Johnny Risko beat Godfrey in 1928. Godfrey was a good fighter, but when Tunney was still active, he was just one of several relatively even contenders in the mix. Very little reason to think he would have beaten Tunney.
This may surprise a lot of people, but Schmeling was not even a ranked contender when Tunney retired.

[HomicideHenry]

Yeah but we're projecting into the 1928 and beyond timeline. We can only go off of his last two performances against Dempsey to project into the future. And tbh, let's be honest, truly honest here, Dempsey hadn't fought in three years before tangling with Gene. He lost not only his edge, but also his peak, by hanging out in Hollywood hobnobbing with celebrities. He could have trained from here to eternity and wouldn't have beaten Gene, so just how great of a win was it to beat him? A mere formality, if the truth is told.

[DrDuke]

I believe, that Tunney would have beaten any Dempsey. Without the time off or with it like it had actually been. Styles make fights. A near-perfect boxers are likely to beat near-perfect punchers. And a one of the main factors in such cases was chin. Dempsey could have been declined to some degree, but the punch is always there in these situations. It's like with declined Tyson decades after. And Gene was able to take that punch and overcome adversity. It kinda deactivated Jack's biggest chance to win.

[HomicideHenry]

I think, personally, that Dempsey the contender was superior to Dempsey the champion. Primarily because of Doc Kearns approach, "the soft touch and hard sell," where Dempsey was fighting guys like Georges Carpentier and Luis Firpo, who primarily were (in reality) weak contenders who only got their shot because the press manipulated the public into believing these guys were something more than what they were.

The fact that Dempsey nearly lost to Firpo, when years ago such an oaf would have been absolutely devoured by Dempsey, and then didn't fight for three years... Makes me think that Dempsey was already slipping... Before Firpo was Gibbons and this kinda sorta proves my theory, as it went the entire fifteen rounds.

Just a year later... Gene Tunney, not reknowned for his punching power (though he could hit) stops Gibbons in 12 rounds... Dempsey, clearly, was fading and Tunney knew it, as his quotes on that time frame supports that.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yeah but we're projecting into the 1928 and beyond timeline. We can only go off of his last two performances against Dempsey to project into the future. And tbh, let's be honest, truly honest here, Dempsey hadn't fought in three years before tangling with Gene. He lost not only his edge, but also his peak, by hanging out in Hollywood hobnobbing with celebrities. He could have trained from here to eternity and wouldn't have beaten Gene, so just how great of a win was it to beat him? A mere formality, if the truth is told.

We can go off of Godfrey's loss to Risko in 1928. That says something about how good Godfrey was.
We can also go off of Tunney's easy win over Heeney.
That Dempsey "could have trained from here to eternity and wouldn't have beaten Gene", is an indication tat Tunney was very good.
Also Dempsey had the Sharkey just three months before the 2nd Tunney fight, while Tunney didn't fight at all.. So Dempsey would have got rid of some of the ring rust by their 2nd fight. He certainly wasn't at this best, but had something left.

Who knows how long Tunney could have stayed close to this level. Most fighters start gradually decline around the age of 30. He was 30, almost 31 when he beat Heeney. Tunney probably beats anyone around in 1929 or 1930, then it after that it would be hard to say.