Calzaghe - Kessler = Mess

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 18 Oct 2006, 10:20

Terence wrote:I have not done this for a while (so I am not trolling ). Here is my take on the fight. It takes in the topics raised on three or more threads.

I went hoping to be converted, it never quite worked out that way.

http://www.britishboxing.net/news_1770- ... -back.html

Good take

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 18 Oct 2006, 10:39

Man you complained about how Joe beat Lacy!

So what if he didn't stop him, he put him down and his corner and the ref refused to stop it.

Joe does rate Kessler by the way in comment to get out of Sven card bit.

Alphebet belts don't make Kessler No 1 these days either.

jangeorg · Post by **jangeorg** » 18 Oct 2006, 11:08

Max Molyneux wrote:Man you complained about how Joe beat Lacy!

So what if he didn't stop him, he put him down and his corner and the ref refused to stop it.

Joe does rate Kessler by the way in comment to get out of Sven card bit.

Alphebet belts don't make Kessler No 1 these days either.

Calzaghe is content with Lacy as a "big win" even though it is absolutely not a huge win. Kessler's win over Beyer is just as big because Beyer was a champ longer than Lacy AND Kessler KO'ed him quite easily. Kessler has already done about as much as Calzaghe in all honesty. It doesn't matter if you go undefeated for over a decade if your best opponents are a shot Chris Eubank, Charles Brewer, and Jeff Lacy.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Oct 2006, 11:13

There is an argument for saying he should have been able to put lacy away, but I don't feel that absolutely battering someone for 12 rounds makes it any less of an achievement. However, although initially it seemed a great performance, it's not on a level with the likes of Honeyghan v Curry, Turpin v Robinson et. al, as Lacy was really not yet proven. He was beginning to become a force, and looked devastating against Reid, but he was not a dominant champ heading toward unifcation but rather the young pretender who was supposed to overwhelm the fading and underachieving long reigning titlist.

There can be no doubt that Kessler is by far the most important opponent for Calzaghe right now. Hopkins or Johnson, or Clinton Woods are poor second place opponents compared to the legacy enhancing effect of beating Kessler, and sticking a gloved fist down the throat of his detractors.

I do believe that Calzaghe will beat Kessler, Mikkel has virtualyl zero lateral movement, but his size, jab and physical prowess will force Joe to work hard, something judging by the Lacy fight, that he is still able to do.

However, as Terrence points out, Joe has a habit of just poo-pooing opponents rather than fighting them, and herein lies the problem with assessing his worth as a fighter. If he beats Kessler, then we will have to talk about him as being quite possibly the best in the division of all time, because Jones and Toney weren't there long enough, and his achievements will have outstripped eubank and even Benn's.

In parting, Terrence is right to say that unless Joe fights Kessler, his position is in doubt.

G-man · Post by **G-man** » 18 Oct 2006, 11:16

I think it's a nice piece apart form being harsh in your assessment of the Lacy performance.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 18 Oct 2006, 13:25

I agree with James McDonnell's post, good stuff old chap

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 18 Oct 2006, 13:28

Faulting Calzaghe's performance against Lacy is pathetic.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 18 Oct 2006, 13:44

lvlarc_uk wrote:Faulting Calzaghe's performance against Lacy is pathetic.

Yep; his performance against Tocker Pudwill was also pretty good.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 18 Oct 2006, 13:55

Terence wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Faulting Calzaghe's performance against Lacy is pathetic.
I gave it an A, perfect is dominating a guy then KO-ing him. Not dominating him for round after round, if that fight had non-biased commentators then I am sorry a call would have gone up for Joe to seal the deal.

Fighting three fights against opposition who have not broken into 20 wins at SM between them and only scoring a single knock-down is pretty telling.

Ashira had 1 fight prior at SMW, Lacy was at 168 or below in 20 or 19 of his 21 wins, and Bika still has not won at 168 yet....

Not exactly the stuff of Hall of Famers....

Go ahead, and say RJJ didn't have but 3 wins at 168 when he fought Toney, but none of the above mentioned are on Jones @ 168's level.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 18 Oct 2006, 13:59

pundit wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Faulting Calzaghe's performance against Lacy is pathetic.
Yep; his performance against Tocker Pudwill was also pretty good.

"He was a master of distance and timing. I have never seen a better performance from anyone in the world."

- Gary Shaw

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 18 Oct 2006, 14:04

lvlarc_uk wrote:
pundit wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Faulting Calzaghe's performance against Lacy is pathetic.
Yep; his performance against Tocker Pudwill was also pretty good.

"He was a master of distance and timing. I have never seen a better performance from anyone in the world."

- Gary Shaw

.... also known as "the world's most promoter".

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 18 Oct 2006, 14:05

lvlarc_uk wrote:
pundit wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Faulting Calzaghe's performance against Lacy is pathetic.
Yep; his performance against Tocker Pudwill was also pretty good.

"He was a master of distance and timing. I have never seen a better performance from anyone in the world."

- Gary Shaw

Didn't Pudwill just try to stand and exchange 1 punch for 4 for an entire round?

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 18 Oct 2006, 14:06

His performance against McIntyre has to be right up there. Ginger bashing at its very best.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 18 Oct 2006, 14:08

nickd wrote:His performance against McIntyre has to be right up there. Ginger bashing at its very best.

...... and poor Rick Thornberry. What a master class.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 18 Oct 2006, 15:59

pundit wrote:
nickd wrote:His performance against McIntyre has to be right up there. Ginger bashing at its very best.
...... and poor Rick Thornberry. What a master class.

Calzaghe was so good against Thornberry, that he could fight with his hands down and not get hit.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Oct 2006, 20:24

Yes, that's the way I see it. I think Kessler is being very highly rated, but his style is not very versatile. He has a good thumping jab, and a good right hand. Though more mobile and quicker that is pretty much Taylor's best weapons as well, and as we saw against Hopkins, that can cause a sneaky infighter trouble.

Calzaghe does best when he can get inside and let those fast hands go, and when he does and he gets someone in front of him for a while, he looks excellent. He used fantastic angles against Lacy to keep raining blows on him without really taking anything in return, but then Lacy is a short stocky chap with short arms and a bulky physique, so that's the best way to fight him.

I think Joe would either have to accept taking shots on the way in and tough it out to get his own best work done, or try and feint and pickpocket his way into range, and that could suit Kessler either way.

However, we haven't really seen Kessler in against someone with a great deal of fight in them, aside from Mundine who isn't much of a puncher and prefers to fight at range, and I am not yet convincing that Kessler would be able to pull the trigger on Calzaghe that often.

Let's not forget, Kessler won his title fighting Manny Siaca a guy who is far from world class at 168, and has impressed only against Mundine, who gave him trouble. Calzaghe is head and shoulders better than anyone he has faced to date, and whilst his style has been successful so far, that's no indication it will be successful against someone as fast, aggressive, tough, and determined to win as Calzaghe would be.

Let's make this goddam fight happen, all the websites are calling for it, the boxing magazines are going to call for it, let's hope that HBO go for it, because that, at the end of the day is what is going to determine whether this fight happens or not. HBO are putting the money up, and neither Calzaghe or Warren, perhaps rightly are going to risk HBO offers by taking on Kessler if the money is there to fight Hopkins or Taylor.

Incidentally, I give Hopkins no chance against Calzaghe, I really don't, Joe is all wrong for him. Hopkins can have whatever plan he wants, but Calzaghe would be all over him like white on rice, and Hopkins best shots wouldn't be enough to keep him off. I honestly think Joe has the style to give Hopkins a right old battering.

bigynzing · Post by **bigynzing** » 18 Oct 2006, 20:35

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
However, we haven't really seen Kessler in against someone with a great deal of fight in them, aside from Mundine who isn't much of a puncher and prefers to fight at range, and I am not yet convincing that Kessler would be able to pull the trigger on Calzaghe that often.

Let's not forget, Kessler won his title fighting Manny Siaca a guy who is far from world class at 168, and has impressed only against Mundine, who gave him trouble. Calzaghe is head and shoulders better than anyone he has faced to date, and whilst his style has been successful so far, that's no indication it will be successful against someone as fast, aggressive, tough, and determined to win as Calzaghe would be.
.

Exactly.....where`s the punchers????......Has Kessler ever had to come off the floor???...more questions than answers...

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 18 Oct 2006, 20:39

Good post & I agree that Joe's workrate and style would give Hopkins nightmares, but I don't think he'd batter him. I see Hopkins trying to counter alot but coming up short while Calzaghe drills home combo's setting him off balance and letting the rounds slip by

Talks between the camps look legit, probably somethign on Palle's site but I can't understand a bloody word.

http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/6063686.stm

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 19 Oct 2006, 02:55

Calzaghe v Kessler is a 50-50 fight as far as I am concerned. I'd have trouble picking a winner at this point.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 19 Oct 2006, 04:43

Terence wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:There is an argument for saying he should have been able to put lacy away, but I don't feel that absolutely battering someone for 12 rounds makes it any less of an achievement. However, although initially it seemed a great performance, it's not on a level with the likes of Honeyghan v Curry, Turpin v Robinson et. al, as Lacy was really not yet proven. He was beginning to become a force, and looked devastating against Reid, but he was not a dominant champ heading toward unifcation but rather the young pretender who was supposed to overwhelm the fading and underachieving long reigning titlist.

There can be no doubt that Kessler is by far the most important opponent for Calzaghe right now. Hopkins or Johnson, or Clinton Woods are poor second place opponents compared to the legacy enhancing effect of beating Kessler, and sticking a gloved fist down the throat of his detractors.

I do believe that Calzaghe will beat Kessler, Mikkel has virtualyl zero lateral movement, but his size, jab and physical prowess will force Joe to work hard, something judging by the Lacy fight, that he is still able to do.

However, as Terrence points out, Joe has a habit of just poo-pooing opponents rather than fighting them, and herein lies the problem with assessing his worth as a fighter. If he beats Kessler, then we will have to talk about him as being quite possibly the best in the division of all time, because Jones and Toney weren't there long enough, and his achievements will have outstripped eubank and even Benn's.

In parting, Terrence is right to say that unless Joe fights Kessler, his position is in doubt.
The 300lb elephant in the room (or what have you) is Kessler. Whether he likes it or not Joe has to face the fact Kessler is the WBA/WBC champion, what is the point of partially unifying then saying "fook this I do not rate the guy". Like you say the other guys are not the type of fighters to cement the 168lb story. This division needs to get a linear Championship going, it is long overdue.

I think Kessler would give Joe a tough fight, I also am fairly sure joe would win the fight.

Kessler would not be a walkover though. His jab is solid enough to stop Joe's hands flowing and Joe might find himself having to grit out a punch-picking type of fight. Kessler should cause problems with his right hand, he will not bring a great left hook though so it will be a case of him salvoing and Joe responding.

Joe is a tough bugger, that is what gives him a big edge.

Then he can move on and put the icing on the cake by beating up old man Hopkins. Although I think the fact Hopkins has a tight defence and can pick good rights and left hooks will be problematic. If Hopkins does ever take the fight you can be sure that he will have worked out a winning plan.

For all the criticism Calzaghe gets, I am glad to see that people do have faith in his abilities. Go to the Current Scene, & people are sure that Tito, Winky & Taylor will all beat Calzaghe.

Kessler and Hopkins will give him major problems. Hopkins is pretty big now and like Toney, he can hypnotise people into fighting his pace. But then again, Calzaghe has Taylor level speed and can still throw a lot of punches. Also, that sneaky lead right is a big problem for Joe. & the fact that when Calzaghe trades, he has his gloves down and sticks his chin forward, well if he does that again it's curtains.

I'm still not sure how Kessler would fare. I'm certain it would be close, but am not sure how effective his jab can be vs a southpaw. But obviously there's more to Kessler than just a jab, considring the KO punch of Beyer.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 19 Oct 2006, 04:49

Terence wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Faulting Calzaghe's performance against Lacy is pathetic.
I gave it an A, perfect is dominating a guy then KO-ing him. Not dominating him for round after round, if that fight had non-biased commentators then I am sorry a call would have gone up for Joe to seal the deal.

Fighting three fights against opposition who have not broken into 20 wins at SM between them and only scoring a single knock-down is pretty telling.

Why not say the same about Hopkins not stopping Tarver since he was dominating Tarver?

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 19 Oct 2006, 04:50

pundit wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Faulting Calzaghe's performance against Lacy is pathetic.
Yep; his performance against Tocker Pudwill was also pretty good.

fornicate ignoring Pundit.

It was important as it was a unification needed so your a tool to downplay it otherwise.

If Kessler fought and beat Joe, he'd have all 4 titles.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 19 Oct 2006, 04:56

jangeorg wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Man you complained about how Joe beat Lacy!

So what if he didn't stop him, he put him down and his corner and the ref refused to stop it.

Joe does rate Kessler by the way in comment to get out of Sven card bit.

Alphebet belts don't make Kessler No 1 these days either.

Calzaghe is content with Lacy as a "big win" even though it is absolutely not a huge win. Kessler's win over Beyer is just as big because Beyer was a champ longer than Lacy AND Kessler KO'ed him quite easily. Kessler has already done about as much as Calzaghe in all honesty. It doesn't matter if you go undefeated for over a decade if your best opponents are a shot Chris Eubank, Charles Brewer, and Jeff Lacy.

So because your saying Joe's win over is not a huge win, your saying neither is Kessler's over Beyer since your saying both wins were as big as each other!

The Lacy fight was needed.

If Joe and Kessler fight each other then they have all the belts.

People were favouring Eubank and Lacy before those fights and then make up the excuse of one being shot and the other still green and limited(although I was telling most about that).

punchers chance · Post by **punchers chance** » 19 Oct 2006, 06:08

Agree with the general thrust of the article that Kessler is only way to go.

I have a minor criticism regarding your point about travelling. You omit to mention that Calazghe went to Germany last year to make his mandatory defence against Veit.

I know he only went because they lost the purse bids and people will knock Veit but he won every round on every card before the TKO.
When was the last time a travelling fighter did that in a world title fight in Germany?

I would be interested to hear what our resident tipster ‘the Goods’ thinks but I reckon the bookies would have Calzaghe as a strong favourite if this fight is made.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 19 Oct 2006, 06:32

I've just watched KESSLER-BEYER for the first time. Kessler was extraordinarily good. So active with that jab, and the right handers that he was letting fly were spot on as well. Totally dominant, broke the guy down, and finished with a head spinning right hander. That was a performance worthy of any of the top guys, p4p, in the world.

Warren absolutely agonixed over making Calzaghe-Beyer. He could've made it, but he got Bika instead.

Calzaghe - Kessler = Mess

Re: Calzaghe - Kessler = Mess