Fighters stepping up early - will it happen again to a Brit?

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 21 Dec 2006, 15:09

I always find it interesting when a fighter manages to beat the best with onbly a few fights under there belt. just looking through these fighters fighting for titles:

Delahoya - 13fights WBO Champ
Tyszu - 14 fights IBF
Vargas - 15 fights IBF
Mayweather - 18 fights
Lacy - 18 fights

The best we've had in recent years is Hamed in 20fights for the WBO (he could have taken a belt even earlier imo)

So what about todays prospect will we have any fighters step up so quickly? Hatton took around 40fights to step up and it seems to have been perfect timing. Witter stepped up on his 18th fight unprepared and it seems to have held his career back no end.

The symptom of British boxing business today seems to be if a fighters decent and popular 'don't give him a fight he may lose because our big asset will be lost'.

Khan/Mitchell/Murray - will take way over 30 fights before they are considered to fight anyone top 10 in the world. Which may have its benefits, because if they improve they may not get destroyed as they may do right now. Fighters like Vargas/Lacy seem to have been ruined through been thrown to the lions early on. On the flip side there not that good and their whole sale is a sham to the public.

Hobson, Froch and Haye have all moved relatively fast, but none have taken on a top10 fighters and beaten them yet.

So what are our thoughts? I hate protected fighters and meaningless fights. But prospects do need to be moved along steadily unless they are truly great.

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 21 Dec 2006, 15:19

I can't see anyone in Britain coming close to a any of those you've listed, let alone say a Nobuo Nashiro. I think 18/20 fights if the division is relatively weak is the best any British boxer could manage.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 21 Dec 2006, 15:34

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:I always find it interesting when a fighter manages to beat the best with onbly a few fights under there belt. just looking through these fighters fighting for titles:

Delahoya - 13fights WBO Champ
Tyszu - 14 fights IBF
Vargas - 15 fights IBF
Mayweather - 18 fights
Lacy - 18 fights

The best we've had in recent years is Hamed in 20fights for the WBO (he could have taken a belt even earlier imo)

So what about todays prospect will we have any fighters step up so quickly? Hatton took around 40fights to step up and it seems to have been perfect timing. Witter stepped up on his 18th fight unprepared and it seems to have held his career back no end.

The symptom of British boxing business today seems to be if a fighters decent and popular 'don't give him a fight he may lose because our big asset will be lost'.

Khan/Mitchell/Murray - will take way over 30 fights before they are considered to fight anyone top 10 in the world. Which may have its benefits, because if they improve they may not get destroyed as they may do right now. Fighters like Vargas/Lacy seem to have been ruined through been thrown to the lions early on. On the flip side there not that good and their whole sale is a sham to the public.

Hobson, Froch and Haye have all moved relatively fast, but none have taken on a top10 fighters and beaten them yet.

So what are our thoughts? I hate protected fighters and meaningless fights. But prospects do need to be moved along steadily unless they are truly great.

Haye did beat Gurov, who was at the lower rungs of the top 10, but I agree with what you're saying.

Some Yanks had Carl Thompson @ a high ranking for ages, probably on the strength of the Rothmann win, never mind that he was 1/2 retired & got a gift vs Serrat

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 21 Dec 2006, 15:43

It all depends on circumstance.
Who is their promoter,how good they are etc.....

Hatton could have stepped up a few fights earlier.
Witter made a mistake,he is still paying for(Yanks hate him,and always cite the Judah fight as their reason for doing so)
Khan could step upto world level one day,but I can't see it happening for a few years yet.
Mitchell and Murray will lose if they ever step up to world class level,irrelevant of how many fights they have had.

Generally though,British prospects seem to have a long learning curve.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 21 Dec 2006, 16:28

Well boxers in the far east seem to go for titles alot sooner. Some from that area have vast experience in Thai boxing, but alot don't , Pacquiao had 24 fights before challenging for major title. Also alot of boxers from Mexico have many fights before boxing for a world title.

think the fastest we will ever have is Paul Weir winning the WBO title in his 7th fight, don't think you'll see that again.

Boxers like De La Hoya, Tyszu and Mayweather are head and shoulders above other novices , so will challenge sooner.
Jeff Lacy was a good boxer in a pretty weak division (apart from calzahge) so could challenge sooner.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 Dec 2006, 18:55

You forgot Jeff Fenech won the IBF title in his 7th fight!

The Hawk · Post by **The Hawk** » 21 Dec 2006, 19:03

Can you ever see a British Boxer win even a WBO title this quick again

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=005405

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 21 Dec 2006, 19:14

The problem is the likes of Warren want to make some cash out of the fighter first and recoup their investment before potentially sending them to the slaughter.

That's the nub of it and that's the problem with boxing in the UK.

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 21 Dec 2006, 20:41

I can't help but point out that in Lacy's case having that early shot didn't work out too well nothing wrong with being ready for all eventualities when you go for your shot and having a grownding however in some cases (eg hatton) promoters take the piss.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 22 Dec 2006, 03:46

Goz wrote:The problem is the likes of Warren want to make some cash out of the fighter first and recoup their investment before potentially sending them to the slaughter.

That's the nub of it and that's the problem with boxing in the UK.

interesting point!!

i'm not british, but have followed may brit prospects over the years & agree they do have a long learning curve...PART of the problem could be overcome thru the following measures:

1. scrap those ridiculous 2-minute rounds, which should be for women only!!

2. scrap that ridiculous british-only policy where if a fighter gets badly injured from an "unintentional butt" he becomes a TKO victim instead of having fight go to scorecards or (if not enuf rounds complete) declared a no-contest!!

another thing that seems to hinder british prospects, but is not so easily remedied is the tendency of judges & refs to give the benefit of the doubt in close rounds to the salty old journeyman who is fighting a young, rising prospect instead of the other way around...in the usa & many other countries, the prospect usually gets the benefit of doubt in close rounds!!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 22 Dec 2006, 06:45

When did David Haye fight the world rated Carl Thompson.

Not British, but British based Garad Ajetovic fought the very decent (solid EBU level) Christophe Canclaux also very early.

Okay both lost quite convincingly, but at least they had the bottle to try.

JC · Post by JC » 22 Dec 2006, 07:20

Ryan Rhodes fought Otis Grant for the WBO title after 16 fights.

IMO there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting lots of fights under your belt before going for the title like George Foreman (around 30 odd), provided you fight often and the fights are learning fights as opposed to low risk money making ploys for the promoter.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 22 Dec 2006, 07:52

stujones wrote:When did David Haye fight the world rated Carl Thompson.

Not British, but British based Garad Ajetovic fought the very decent (solid EBU level) Christophe Canclaux also very early.

Okay both lost quite convincingly, but at least they had the bottle to try.

looks like he was 10-0, when he faced Thompson. Admittedly Thompson was semi retired, but his KO of Rothmann was a good 'un.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 22 Dec 2006, 10:01

There's an understatement! One of the best fights I've ever seen live, probably the best.

I think part of the problem, is that early on our fighters tend to be matched very soft indeed, having 15-20 bowl em over jobs, before they even think about stepping up, whereas the mexicans used to be fighting grown men at 15-16 years of age, and were put in very hard fights against seasoned men.

Unfortunately, Khan's lack of any real senior amateur experience, apart from his single olympic campaign, means there's going to be an awful lot of kinks to iron out before he's ready to step up. He has pretty dazzling handspeed and is a good athlete, but he's a long long way from world class right now. Thus his progress is going to be protracted.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 22 Dec 2006, 12:27

Well Mexican boxers do follow similar routes as our ones , although there journymen are a bit tougher sometimes, look ar Barreras record at the same stage of his career he was boxing a guy who was coming in on 5 straight losses, 4 by KO. He won the mexican title in his 17th fight, something you'd expect Khan to be challenging for by then.

black panther · Post by **black panther** » 23 Dec 2006, 09:37

Difference is barrera had FA amateur experience and was still only a kid!(turned pro at 14?!!)

Another comparison is to khan could be miguel cotto. I mean if khan is that good surely he shud be progessing at a similar rate to what cotto did. I mean cotto faced justin jukko in only his tenth fight and former world champ cezar bazan in only his 14th! Also even the journeyman fighters he was fighting early in his career were a step up from the guys khan's been in with so far. Bottomline I'm gonna stick my neck out and say I'm not that impressed with khan at all and can't see him winning a major world championship unless the division becomes very weak(which i supppose it could do).

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Dec 2006, 10:38

viciousmaussa wrote:
stujones wrote:When did David Haye fight the world rated Carl Thompson.

Not British, but British based Garad Ajetovic fought the very decent (solid EBU level) Christophe Canclaux also very early.

Okay both lost quite convincingly, but at least they had the bottle to try.
looks like he was 10-0, when he faced Thompson. Admittedly Thompson was semi retired, but his KO of Rothmann was a good 'un.

I wouldn't say Carl was semi retired at that stage, he was fighting fairly often on FA cards.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Dec 2006, 10:44

black panther wrote:Difference is barrera had FA amateur experience and was still only a kid!(turned pro at 14?!!)

Another comparison is to khan could be miguel cotto. I mean if khan is that good surely he shud be progessing at a similar rate to what cotto did. I mean cotto faced justin jukko in only his tenth fight and former world champ cezar bazan in only his 14th! Also even the journeyman fighters he was fighting early in his career were a step up from the guys khan's been in with so far. Bottomline I'm gonna stick my neck out and say I'm not that impressed with khan at all and can't see him winning a major world championship unless the division becomes very weak(which i supppose it could do).

Cotto had a really mature style from the day he turned pro. He must've had shitloads of amateur experience.

black panther · Post by **black panther** » 23 Dec 2006, 11:37

he did. He was an olympian - got beat by eventual gold medallist abdulaev but we all know what happened in the pro ranks.

Fighters stepping up early - will it happen again to a Brit?

Fighters stepping up early - will it happen again to a Brit?

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