Most Underrated Fighter Of All Time

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 23 Dec 2006, 00:54

I'm sure many will disagree, but my choice, despite his already being in the HOF is Packey McFarland. Off hand I can't think of another fighter so ignored and under appreciated on alltime lists( Burt Sugar has him rated 97th) Consider the following. Packey McFarland lost one fight in his entire career,when he was only 15 years old ! then went 95-0-7 1NC until his retirement. After the KO loss in his 7th fight, McFarland was knocked down only 2 more times in his remaining 103 bouts. At age 16 he took on Jimmy Britt, who had recently won the vacant LW title from Battling Nelson, and in a non-title bout, stopped the champion in the 6th round. As a teenager, McFarland KO'd 31 of his first 36 opponents. In 1908 Packey won a 10 round decision over future HOF'er Freddie Welsh, and after KO'ing Jimmy Britt a second time, he met Welsh again in a 25 rd bout in Los Angeles. This time the bout ended in a draw, though some accounts have Welsh fading in the last 4 rounds. In 1910 the two met for a 3rd time, in London, and on this occasion it was to be for Welsh's British version of the LW title. After 20 rds, the fight was again called a draw, but according to sources, McFarland had clearly had the better of things.McFarland would never again fight for a title, though negotiations with Battling Nelson were in the works for a time. The following year McFarland easily decisioned future HOF'er Owen Moran over 10 rds, and in 1913 took a pair of decisions, one of which was a dominant performance from another HOF'er Jack Britton. Finally, after coming out of a 21 month retirement, McFarland moved up in weight and fought a boring draw with world class Mike Gibbons. Though a few ringsiders thought Gibbons had had a slight edge.

In addition to the 3 Hall of Famers he defeated, Packey McFarland scored quite a number of other impressive victories as well. Besides the 2 KO wins over Jimmy Britt, he also stopped Steve Kinney, Benny Yanger, Phil Brock, Young Ahearn and Tommy Devlin. And posted decision wins over a very good Harlem Tommy Murphy four times, Leach Cross, Harry Trendall, Young Erne and Eddie Murphy twice each, and Charley Neary, Kid Herman, Young Loughrey, Cyclone Johnny Thompson, Matt Wells and Lockport Jimmy Duffy once each.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 23 Dec 2006, 03:59

Ike Williams. He's more known than some, but honestly, he should be a top three lightweight I reckon. Fantastic fighter with awesome credentials. If you go by accomplishments at lightweight, you could rate Williams above Roberto Duran, Joe Gans and possibly even Benny Leonard.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 24 Dec 2006, 02:59

..the most underrated fighter of all time is so underrated that even i haven't ever heard of him....

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 24 Dec 2006, 03:26

As far as HW's is concerned, its a toss up in my opinion between Tommy Burns and Rocky Marciano. Both guys are severly under-rated, and in Rocky's case, over-rated as well. Burns beat the best MW, LHW and HW's the world had to offer and its sad that he is only remembered and swept under the carpet as being the man who lost to Jack Johnson.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 24 Dec 2006, 10:30

This is amazing. I ask about the most underrated fighter of all time, and then I hear about Rocky Marciano.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 24 Dec 2006, 10:47

Has to be Eder Jofre.

What a record that man has.

How he doesn't figure in more top 10 p4p lists, I will never know.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 25 Dec 2006, 18:17

Good call on Packey Seamus.
Eddie Perkins is another guy nobody talks about very much these days also.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Dec 2006, 00:41

the most underated fighter of all time seamus is hands down jack blackburn. lloyd marshall would be my # 2 pick.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 Dec 2006, 01:54

Brockton picked the right guy. Blackburn was simply one of the greatest fighters of all time...OF ALL TIMES. Without him, there wouldn't have been a Joe Louis. I'd also want to throw in Peter Jackson as one of the more under-appreciated and forgotten fighters in history---considering how this man was ducked by the great John L. as well as many other prominent HW's of his era, and it is remarkably sad that this man is any more than a slight foot note in history as being the first black man that Jim Jefferies fought (albiet way passed Jackson's time).

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 Dec 2006, 08:36

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:As far as HW's is concerned, its a toss up in my opinion between Tommy Burns and Rocky Marciano. Both guys are severly under-rated, and in Rocky's case, over-rated as well. Burns beat the best MW, LHW and HW's the world had to offer and its sad that he is only remembered and swept under the carpet as being the man who lost to Jack Johnson.

You're having a laugh, how can Marciano be underrated??... overrated yes, underrated no. Underrated heavyweight champs are Jim Jeffries, Ezzard Charles, Gene Tunney and Larry Holmes... all of whome would have beaten Marcinao handily in their primes.....

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 Dec 2006, 08:39

Two more underrated fighters are Lou Brouliard and Freddie Steele... Lou was a double weight champ by the age of 22 yet is hardly ever mentioned... Steele was a great puncher who on his night would have given any middleweight trouble...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 Dec 2006, 08:43

DoubleM wrote:Ike Williams. He's more known than some, but honestly, he should be a top three lightweight I reckon. Fantastic fighter with awesome credentials. If you go by accomplishments at lightweight, you could rate Williams above Roberto Duran, Joe Gans and possibly even Benny Leonard.

I agree that Williams is a little overlooked but sont see how he rates higher than either Duran, Gans or Leonard??.... if you compare their reigns and careers those other guys acheived more imo....
Two other lightweights that are more overlooked than Williams imo are Joe Brown and Ismal Laguna.... Brown especially is crinimally overlooked I think...

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 27 Dec 2006, 18:03

silkov wrote:
DoubleM wrote:Ike Williams. He's more known than some, but honestly, he should be a top three lightweight I reckon. Fantastic fighter with awesome credentials. If you go by accomplishments at lightweight, you could rate Williams above Roberto Duran, Joe Gans and possibly even Benny Leonard.
I agree that Williams is a little overlooked but sont see how he rates higher than either Duran, Gans or Leonard??.... if you compare their reigns and careers those other guys acheived more imo....
Two other lightweights that are more overlooked than Williams imo are Joe Brown and Ismal Laguna.... Brown especially is crinimally overlooked I think...

Well, just look at his record. Williams beat Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery, as well as Sammy Angott and Kid Gavilan (closely). I've probably made an error in restricting it to lightweight accomplishments, because I'd like to bring up the subject of welterweights. Williams was beating quite a few contenders in the higher weight division as well. He beat a few Hall of Famers, but the depth of top ten challengers he beat was awesome.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 27 Dec 2006, 18:55

Here's what I could find from Williams' resume - the top ten contenders he beat over featherweight, lightweight and welterweight:

Beau Jack
Bob Montgomery
Kid Gavilan
Sammy Angott
Lefty LaChance
Bill Speary
Slugger White
Johnny Hutchinson
Freddie Dawson
Joey Peralta
Lulu Constantino
Willie Joyce
Dave Castilloux
Juan Zurita
Johnny Bratton
Ronnie James
Ralph Zannelli
Nick Moran
Bobby Ruffin
Tippy Larkin
Enrique Bolanos
Tony Pellone
Livio Minelli
Rudy Cruz
Jesse Flores
Buddy Garcia
Sonny Boy West
Gene Burton
Joe Miceli
John L. Davis
Lestor Felton
Charley Salas

There's probably two or three I've missed out as well, and he beat a lot of them more than once (I'd guess that out of those 32 names, he had roughly 48 wins against them). Very impressive list. Sad thing is, everybody seems to forget about Ike Williams and he doesn't even touch a consensus top thirty five.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 Dec 2006, 19:23

DoubleM wrote:
silkov wrote:
DoubleM wrote:Ike Williams. He's more known than some, but honestly, he should be a top three lightweight I reckon. Fantastic fighter with awesome credentials. If you go by accomplishments at lightweight, you could rate Williams above Roberto Duran, Joe Gans and possibly even Benny Leonard.
I agree that Williams is a little overlooked but sont see how he rates higher than either Duran, Gans or Leonard??.... if you compare their reigns and careers those other guys acheived more imo....
Two other lightweights that are more overlooked than Williams imo are Joe Brown and Ismal Laguna.... Brown especially is crinimally overlooked I think...
Well, just look at his record. Williams beat Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery, as well as Sammy Angott and Kid Gavilan (closely). I've probably made an error in restricting it to lightweight accomplishments, because I'd like to bring up the subject of welterweights. Williams was beating quite a few contenders in the higher weight division as well. He beat a few Hall of Famers, but the depth of top ten challengers he beat was awesome.

Well, Duran beat Dejesus, Buchanan, Lampkin, Viruet, all outstanding fighters, Dejesus and Buchanan were both better than Montgomery and Jack.... Duran then went on to beat Leonard, the only man who ever beat a prime Leonard, then he held a peak Hagler to a close points decision and beat Barkley at 37... I cant imagine Williams doing the same... he was an outstanding fighter but Durans career was greater...

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 27 Dec 2006, 20:19

silkov wrote:
DoubleM wrote:
silkov wrote: I agree that Williams is a little overlooked but sont see how he rates higher than either Duran, Gans or Leonard??.... if you compare their reigns and careers those other guys acheived more imo....
Two other lightweights that are more overlooked than Williams imo are Joe Brown and Ismal Laguna.... Brown especially is crinimally overlooked I think...
Well, just look at his record. Williams beat Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery, as well as Sammy Angott and Kid Gavilan (closely). I've probably made an error in restricting it to lightweight accomplishments, because I'd like to bring up the subject of welterweights. Williams was beating quite a few contenders in the higher weight division as well. He beat a few Hall of Famers, but the depth of top ten challengers he beat was awesome.
Well, Duran beat Dejesus, Buchanan, Lampkin, Viruet, all outstanding fighters, Dejesus and Buchanan were both better than Montgomery and Jack.... Duran then went on to beat Leonard, the only man who ever beat a prime Leonard, then he held a peak Hagler to a close points decision and beat Barkley at 37... I cant imagine Williams doing the same... he was an outstanding fighter but Durans career was greater...

Silkov... You don't need to go through Duran's career for me. I know as much about it as anyone; one of my favourite fighters.

And by the way - I never said Williams should be rated above Duran - I said on lightweight accomplishments only, he could be rated as the greater lightweight. I rate Duran #7 of all time on a pound-for-pound list, with Williams at about #19.

Lastly, Buchanan and De Jesus weren't better than Jack and Montgomery, you just think they were. I would say they were all roughly equal on ability, Buchanan a bit above. Don't forget Sammy Angott, who was a lightweight Fritzie Zivic... And, of course, Willie Joyce, who was a fantastic fighter in his own right.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 Dec 2006, 20:32

DoubleM wrote:
silkov wrote:
DoubleM wrote: Well, just look at his record. Williams beat Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery, as well as Sammy Angott and Kid Gavilan (closely). I've probably made an error in restricting it to lightweight accomplishments, because I'd like to bring up the subject of welterweights. Williams was beating quite a few contenders in the higher weight division as well. He beat a few Hall of Famers, but the depth of top ten challengers he beat was awesome.
Well, Duran beat Dejesus, Buchanan, Lampkin, Viruet, all outstanding fighters, Dejesus and Buchanan were both better than Montgomery and Jack.... Duran then went on to beat Leonard, the only man who ever beat a prime Leonard, then he held a peak Hagler to a close points decision and beat Barkley at 37... I cant imagine Williams doing the same... he was an outstanding fighter but Durans career was greater...
Silkov... You don't need to go through Duran's career for me. I know as much about it as anyone; one of my favourite fighters.

And by the way - I never said Williams should be rated above Duran - I said on lightweight accomplishments only, he could be rated as the greater lightweight. I rate Duran #7 of all time on a pound-for-pound list, with Williams at about #19.

Lastly, Buchanan and De Jesus weren't better than Jack and Montgomery, you just think they were. I would say they were all roughly equal on ability, Buchanan a bit above. Don't forget Sammy Angott, who was a lightweight Fritzie Zivic... And, of course, Willie Joyce, who was a fantastic fighter in his own right.

Well you just think Jack and Montgomery were better than Buchanan and Dejesus... its all opinions, how many fights of Jack and Montgomery have you seen?... I think Buchanan and Dejesus would have been too fast and slick for both of them, in another era Dejesus especially could have been a dominant champion if he had been around at a different time to Duran... sure Williams fought some excellent competition but so did Duran, people like Lampkin, Viruet etc could have been champs in different eras... I also wouldnt rate Williams ahead of either Gans and Leonard...

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 27 Dec 2006, 20:44

Well you just think Jack and Montgomery were better than Buchanan and Dejesus

Difference is, I stated it was my opinion; "I would say..."

how many fights of Jack and Montgomery have you seen?

Not many, infact none of Montgomery. However; he has an excellent record. We've not seen Duilio Loi but know he was an excellent fighter.

I think Buchanan and Dejesus would have been too fast and slick for both of them

Well, Buchanan wasn't that fast, he just had excellent timing which made up for it.
Montgomery was apparently slick himself, but also a good infighter. Perhaps Jack would be 'outslicked'... It's the fighter-fighters that I see Jack doing the best against because of his stamina, strength and iron jaw.

I agree that Esteban would have been a champion in another era. Had he been around in the '40s he would have made an excellent addition to the trio that was Williams, Montgomery and Jack. You never know, he might have ended up second best only to Williams.

Lampkin and Viruet were very good. Very good... But that's it. Champions in another era? Perhaps, but only fill-ins, like Alan Minter. Probably on the same level as Enrique Bolanos.

Truth is, Williams fought in a much more competitive lightweight era than Duran. You had the trio, but there were excellent fighters like Willie Joyce and Sammy Angott floating around that could beat anybody. Off the top of my head, I think Williams fought them seven times collectively.