HW chins

[Ezzard]

Put these in order of the stoutness of their chins (as HWs).

Jeffries
Johnson
Langford
Wills
Dempsey
Tunney
Sharkey
Schmeling
Louis
Charles
Walcott
Marciano
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe
Lewis

[The Great John L]

Jeffries
Ali
Foreman
Marciano
Frazier
Holyfield
Holmes
Johnson
Tyson
Liston
Wills
Bowe
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Langford
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott
Lewis
Sharkey

Quick assessment, subject to change.

[Ezzard]

Jeffries
Ali
Foreman
Marciano
Frazier
Holyfield
Holmes
Johnson
Tyson
Liston
Wills
Bowe
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Langford
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott
Lewis
Sharkey

Quick assessment, subject to change.

Thanks, obviously with such a big list it's easy to make an oversight.

A few observations...

Frazier had a good chin but his powers of recuperation didn't seem great. It took him a while to regain his senses. Lewis was the same. Neither man was easy to drop but once they went down they were in trouble. I'd say the same for Tyson too.

Louis was the opposite. He could be floored but would generally bounce back up a little groggy but ready to go.

[The Great John L]

Thanks, obviously with such a big list it's easy to make an oversight.

A few observations...

Frazier had a good chin but his powers of recuperation didn't seem great. It took him a while to regain his senses. Lewis was the same. Neither man was easy to drop but once they went down they were in trouble. I'd say the same for Tyson too.

Louis was the opposite. He could be floored but would generally bounce back up a little groggy but ready to go.

Your observation about Frazier’s ability to recuperate is based on what exactly? The Foreman fights? Frazier recovered just fine against Bonavena (when he was 22 and in his 12th fight) and I would suspect he did as well against Mike Bruce, although I've never seen that fight. There were other isolated incidents as well during his career when he was stunned and recovered without going down. Imagine how we would all rate Frazier’s chin if there had never been a George Foreman. Let’s not be too harsh with Joe based on the Foreman fights. There are very few fighters who would have been able to survive against prime Foreman, and Joe was hardly at his best in either fight.

While I rate Louis higher (considerably) than Foreman, and also would favor him in a head to head matchup, I think that if George had dropped Joe, Joe would have had a VERY difficult surviving.

How about if we see your ranking of these guys chins.

[The Great John L]

Tyson had a great chin. Lewis and Frazier didn't.

Tyson did have an excellent chin, but I think if he had fought a prime Foreman, he would have been bounced around like a rubber ball and stopped pretty quickly.

Please see my previous post about Frazier's chin.

[Ezzard]

Guess I should have a stab.

Ali
Jeffries
Holyfield
Holmes
Foreman
Marciano
Tyson
Liston
Frazier
Johnson
Bowe
Wills
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Langford
Lewis
Sharkey
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott

I have read plenty of opinions on the site and some reports on Jeffires durability but I'm not as well read as many here and would really be putting a lot of faith in second hand readers. I respect the members here but it would be fraudulent to simply reflect back what you're giving. For this reason I go with Ali.

Holyfield fought 6 bouts with 3 of the divisions ATG punchers (Lewis, Tyson, Bowe) and was floored only once. I think that's some achievement.

I'm tempted to upgrade Liston. The flash KD by Ali (that's how I see it) caught him old and early, other than that he was usually sturdy.

Louis is problematic. I'll be thrown off the board for this but a great puncher and finisher could drop Joe and put him away early (Dempsey, Tyson, Foreman). I'd still back Joe to beat them more often than not but they have a good chance against him.

Charles and Walcott would move into the upper echelon of greats had they been more durable at the weight.

[The Great John L]

Ali
Jeffries
Holyfield
Holmes
Foreman
Marciano
Tyson
Liston
Frazier
Johnson
Bowe
Wills
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Langford
Lewis
Sharkey
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott

Good list. This is a pretty hard exercise, because I don’t think any of them really had weak chins, and I think there are a number of great chins in the list.

[JC]

Guess I should have a stab.

Ali
Jeffries
Holyfield
Holmes
Foreman
Marciano
Tyson
Liston
Frazier
Johnson
Bowe
Wills
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Langford
Lewis
Sharkey
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott

Good list Ezzard, although I'm not sure I'd have Johnson that high, above (Dempsey and Bowe).

[Ezzard]

Guess I should have a stab.

Ali
Jeffries
Holyfield
Holmes
Foreman
Marciano
Tyson
Liston
Frazier
Johnson
Bowe
Wills
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Langford
Lewis
Sharkey
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott

Good list Ezzard, although I'm not sure I'd have Johnson that high, above (Dempsey and Bowe).

Bowe's a tricky one. He seemed to be very solid but then all of his punch resistance seemed to desert him all at once. Maybe the Holyfield wars took a lot out of him. Dempsey could be floored but maybe his style ledt him in the danger zone. Anyway he had a good chin.

You might be right.

[Friedie]

Guess I should have a stab.

Ali
Jeffries
Holyfield
Holmes
Foreman
Marciano
Tyson
Liston
Frazier
Johnson
Bowe
Wills
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Langford
Lewis
Sharkey
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott

I would've Max Schmeling a bit higher...he was dropped only in 3 of his 70 fights...against Daniels (in 1928 as a lightheavyweight) and against the very hard hitters Max Baer and Joe Louis (the t.K.o. losses against Dieckmann and Gains were of injuries and there were no knockdowns). But probably that was more because of his skill avoiding to be hit ?!

[Ezzard]

Guess I should have a stab.

Ali
Jeffries
Holyfield
Holmes
Foreman
Marciano
Tyson
Liston
Frazier
Johnson
Bowe
Wills
Dempsey
Tunney
Louis
Langford
Lewis
Sharkey
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott

I would've Max Schmeling a bit higher...he was dropped only in 3 of his 70 fights...against Daniels (in 1928 as a lightheavyweight) and against the very hard hitters Max Baer and Joe Louis (the t.K.o. losses against Dieckmann and Gains were of injuries and there were no knockdowns). But probably that was more because of his skill avoiding to be hit ?!

Thanks, I may have underestimated him. Louis and Baer could KO anyone if they landed on the button.

[Ambling Alp]

Thought I would give this a try.

Ali
Jeffries
Holmes
Liston
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holyfield
Bowe
Johnson
Langford
Tunney
Lewis
Tyson
Schmeling
Louis
Dempsey
Wills
Sharkey
Charles
Walcott

Lots of close calls. All of these guys had at least decent chins.

[Friedie]

I know he lost on a cut suffered in the first round against Diekmann, but what happened in the Gaines bout?

The day before the Gains-Fight was very unlucky for Max Schmeling. While training in Müngersdorf Stadium in Cologne Max trapped with his naked foot into a wasp and was infected. The night he had 40 degrees fever but nevertheless he started into the fight the next day. After the second round he had to quit the bout. The crowd was very disappointed and there was an examination ordered by the boxing commission after the fight. The diagnosis resulted in a Stomach intestine Katarrh and a jaundice. It took Max weeks to recover from that illnesses.

I got that information from a biographie written by Volker Kluge, who is known to be very critical towards Schmeling.

[Ezzard]

Thought I would give this a try.

Ali
Jeffries
Holmes
Liston
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holyfield
Bowe
Johnson
Langford
Tunney
Lewis
Tyson
Schmeling
Louis
Dempsey
Wills
Sharkey
Charles
Walcott

Lots of close calls. All of these guys had at least decent chins.

Dempsey and Wills are very low here and Lewis quite high (BTW I think Lewis had one of the weaker chins of the greats but I don't subscribe to him having a glass jaw). What's your rationale?

[Friedie]

He's the guy who blasted Schmeling for denying that the Jews were being persecuted in Germany, right?

exactly.

But it was more that Schmeling gave assurances to the American olympic comittee, that all american athletes will be treated well during the '36 games in Berlin. Later Schmeling said he was very naive to do so....although there were no persecutions during the Olympics.
Two years later during "Kristallnacht" Max hid two jewish teenagers in his hotelroom ...that says more about his character I suppose.

[gregor]

I would put Bowe up. Bowe had lousy defence and yet he was floored only by Holy (to stand up and win the fight) and Golota (he was practicaly punching bag for his opponent... and still, after almost half of hour of one-sided beating he stood on his feet ).

[wouter]

I would put Bowe up. Bowe had lousy defence and yet he was floored only by Holy (to stand up and win the fight) and Golota

He only fought Holy and Golota

[gregor]

He only fought Holy and Golota

Even if we agree on that it makes 5 fights already . And we are not discussing his opposition (which could've been better easily) but only his chin. Again, you may have some point if you wanted to say he wasn't in as many wars as most of other champs so he is a little bit less proven... but even with that he shouldn't be listed at the end of the list just above Lewis.

[Ambling Alp]

Thought I would give this a try.

Ali
Jeffries
Holmes
Liston
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holyfield
Bowe
Johnson
Langford
Tunney
Lewis
Tyson
Schmeling
Louis
Dempsey
Wills
Sharkey
Charles
Walcott

Lots of close calls. All of these guys had at least decent chins.

Dempsey and Wills are very low here and Lewis quite high (BTW I think Lewis had one of the weaker chins of the greats but I don't subscribe to him having a glass jaw). What's your rationale?

Wills was hard for me to rate. He did get knocked out a couple of times by Langford which while not isn't embarrassing does indicate that he didn't have an iron jaw. You could argue that he could have been a little higher.
Dempsey was ranked fairly low because he was knocked down 17 times in his career, which is quite a lot when compared to the rest of these guys. It's also hard to imagine many other guys on this list getting stopped by Fireman Flynn. (I don't buy the story of Dempsey throwing this fight).
I have always thought that Lewis had a better chin than given credit for. He was only knocked down twice in 44 fights. The punch that Rahman nailed him with was an awesome shot that would have put anyone on the canvas. (Whether he should have been hit with such a punch is another story). I am not a a Lewis worshipper who is blind to his other shortcomings, but I do think he had a good chin.

[Ezzard]

Thought I would give this a try.

Ali
Jeffries
Holmes
Liston
Marciano
Frazier
Foreman
Holyfield
Bowe
Johnson
Langford
Tunney
Lewis
Tyson
Schmeling
Louis
Dempsey
Wills
Sharkey
Charles
Walcott

Lots of close calls. All of these guys had at least decent chins.

Dempsey and Wills are very low here and Lewis quite high (BTW I think Lewis had one of the weaker chins of the greats but I don't subscribe to him having a glass jaw). What's your rationale?

Wills was hard for me to rate. He did get knocked out a couple of times by Langford which while not isn't embarrassing does indicate that he didn't have an iron jaw. You could argue that he could have been a little higher.
Dempsey was ranked fairly low because he was knocked down 17 times in his career, which is quite a lot when compared to the rest of these guys. It's also hard to imagine many other guys on this list getting stopped by Fireman Flynn. (I don't buy the story of Dempsey throwing this fight).
I have always thought that Lewis had a better chin than given credit for. He was only knocked down twice in 44 fights. The punch that Rahman nailed him with was an awesome shot that would have put anyone on the canvas. (Whether he should have been hit with such a punch is another story). I am not a a Lewis worshipper who is blind to his other shortcomings, but I do think he had a good chin.

The Flynn fight is odd. I'm not sure what happened but it was hardly characteristic of Dempsey. Nobody else KO'd him so easily. If his chin was so bad then it would have happened again. Johnson got dropped by a MW (again open to debate and interpretation) but rarely got dropped in other fights.

[Ezzard]

Dempsey hadn't eaten for a day or two before fighting Flynn, who was a solid heavyweight. Have you ever gone 24 hours without eating?

Just once when I was inter-railing around Europe on a shoe string. Luckily a very kind Italian family shared a picnic with me half way from Rome to Brindisi. It does mess with your mind. Of course Gertrude Stein claimed it focused the mind and that you should always skip a meal before going to The Louvre so as to heighten your appreciation of the paintings. Even so I would not reccomend it for a prize fighter!!!

I have heard this Dempsey story before. Can the story be verified?

There is definitely something odd about the fight.