185 lb. champ

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 20 Jan 2007, 12:15

Will we ever see a heavyweight champ under 190 again? It was common through the 50's & earlier. Does bigger mean better ?

theone · Post by **theone** » 20 Jan 2007, 12:45

Never. Bigger doesnt neccasairly mean better,but a much bigger guy with decent skill can be too much for a smaller fighter with great skill.
There are exceptions of course, but even Roy Jones had to pack on several pounds of muscle, and maintain his speed to be able to compete at that level.
Back in the days most oversized fighters got by mainly on their size. Some like Vitali Klitzko is vastly more skilled than a Willard, Firpo or Canera.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 20 Jan 2007, 14:03

Jim Corbett (178 lbs) ko'ed John Sullivan (212)
Bob Fitzsimmons (167) ko'ed Jim Corbett (183)
Tommy Burns (177) ko'ed Gunner Moir (204)
Jack Dempsey (187) ko'ed Jess Willard (245)
Gene Tunney (192) ko'ed Tom Heeney (204)
Ezzard Charles (185) beat Joe Louis (218)
Rocky Marciano (189) ko'ed Don Cockell (205)

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Jan 2007, 14:07

Could Jack Dempsey do the same thing to the 300+ Valuev? I want to think so....but I'm struggling these days with finding what I believe to be true on this subject.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 20 Jan 2007, 14:25

Jess Willard was better than Valuev, and Dempsey demolished him; as giants, I remember Ewart Potgieter (near of 330 lbs) or Ray Impellitière (270), and they could very easy defeated by strong boys as Dempsey or Rocky

theone · Post by **theone** » 20 Jan 2007, 14:40

Jess Willard was better than Valuev, and Dempsey demolished him; as giants, I remember Ewart Potgieter (near of 330 lbs) or Ray Impellitière (270), and they could very easy defeated by strong boys as Dempsey or Rock

Willard was a circus strong man who entered boxing at a late age. He was succesful because he was so much bigger than everyone else. Thats it.

Ewart Portgieter? Ray Impellitiere? Gimme a break.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Jan 2007, 15:03

I'm inclined to agree with Martin....but there is such a incessant drumbeat about size these days. Tyson was not that big in comparison to most of his opponents...Dempsey is another example of skill over poundage. If there was someone out there right now showin how it's done it would be an easier discussion. But with Valuev seemingly just "outweighting" his opponents, the guys making the argument for size have a pretty good set of examples to draw off of. Skewing the current discussion table.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 20 Jan 2007, 16:32

bill.lockhart wrote:Will we ever see a heavyweight champ under 190 again?

No as they would be a Cruiserweight weighing in at 190lbs.

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 20 Jan 2007, 19:02

BoxBuzz wrote:Could Jack Dempsey do the same thing to the 300+ Valuev? I want to think so....but I'm struggling these days with finding what I believe to be true on this subject.

I'm quite sure Dempsey would K.o. Valuev...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Jan 2007, 19:13

Friedie wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Could Jack Dempsey do the same thing to the 300+ Valuev? I want to think so....but I'm struggling these days with finding what I believe to be true on this subject.
I'm quite sure Dempsey would K.o. Valuev...

I need to hear that...it helps me keep the faith.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Jan 2007, 04:54

IMO the biggest evidence is that Holyfield, a Crusier, beat many skilled giants after having 'bulked up'. If he can do it then I'm sure the other past greats could have too. A washed up Holyfield fought a close fight with possibly the greatest giant of them all - Lennox Lewis.

theone · Post by **theone** » 22 Jan 2007, 09:19

IMO the biggest evidence is that Holyfield, a Crusier, beat many skilled giants after having 'bulked up'. If he can do it then I'm sure the other past greats could have too. A washed up Holyfield fought a close fight with possibly the greatest giant of them all - Lennox Lewis.

But thats the point...he had to bulk up. If he would have fought his heavyweight opponents as a cruiser he would not have been successful.
Holyfield had the height and frame to carry the extra weight comfortable. Also his style of fighting benefited from the extra bulk. That doesnt mean every great fighter south of 200 would have been able to do the same.
For example,with his built and already awkward style, not to mention tender skin, I dont think someone like Marciano would be able to make the transition successfully.

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 22 Jan 2007, 19:03

theone wrote:
IMO the biggest evidence is that Holyfield, a Crusier, beat many skilled giants after having 'bulked up'. If he can do it then I'm sure the other past greats could have too. A washed up Holyfield fought a close fight with possibly the greatest giant of them all - Lennox Lewis.
But thats the point...he had to bulk up. If he would have fought his heavyweight opponents as a cruiser he would not have been successful.
Holyfield had the height and frame to carry the extra weight comfortable. Also his style of fighting benefited from the extra bulk. That doesnt mean every great fighter south of 200 would have been able to do the same.
For example,with his built and already awkward style, not to mention tender skin, I dont think someone like Marciano would be able to make the transition successfully.

Who is to say Holyfield would not have been successful as a cruiser ?Roy Jones as well. I don't agree with this idea of bulking up. A man's best weight should be maintained. If he is beaten , he is beaten at his best fighting weight.

I agree for the most part. I have always maintained a man's best

The Hawk · Post by **The Hawk** » 22 Jan 2007, 20:20

[Who is to say Holyfield would not have been successful as a cruiser ?

He was

"Undisputed" Cruiserweight World Champion and he had a great war with Qawi at Cruiserweight which is seen as the best Crusierweight fight of all time. That's being successful. But after being a successful Crusierweight came the money at Heavyweight and theres not those types of paydays at Cruiser if you make it big there.

theone · Post by **theone** » 22 Jan 2007, 20:30

Who is to say Holyfield would not have been successful as a cruiser ?Roy Jones as well. I don't agree with this idea of bulking up. A man's best weight should be maintained. If he is beaten , he is beaten at his best fighting weight.

Obviously, Holyfield himself felt he needed the extra weight. Also, his struggle with the bull like Qawi in the first fight indicated that adding some mass for extra strength was imperative.

theone · Post by **theone** » 22 Jan 2007, 20:31

He was "Undisputed" Cruiserweight World Champion and he had a great war with Qawi at Cruiserweight which is seen as the best Crusierweight fight of all time. That's being successful.

You misunderstand him Hawk. What he meant was who's to say Holyfield wouldnt have been successful in the heavywieght divison fighting at the same weight he was at cruiserweight.

The Hawk · Post by **The Hawk** » 22 Jan 2007, 20:33

theone wrote:
He was "Undisputed" Cruiserweight World Champion and he had a great war with Qawi at Cruiserweight which is seen as the best Crusierweight fight of all time. That's being successful.
You misunderstand him Hawk. What he meant was who's to say Holyfield wouldnt have been successful in the heavywieght divison fight at his cruiser weight.

Opp's too late at night, point taken

Well thats a valid point, afterall Holyfields heart was a great strenght and he was smaller than a lot of men he faced.

theone · Post by **theone** » 22 Jan 2007, 20:39

Well thats a valid point, afterall Holyfields heart was a great strenght and he was smaller than a lot of men he faced.

And if he didnt bulk up, he would have been even smaller against them than he already was. At a cruiser weight he would not have been competitve against the likes of Riddick Bowe or even Burt Cooper. Heart can only take you so far.

The Hawk · Post by **The Hawk** » 22 Jan 2007, 20:43

theone wrote:
Well thats a valid point, afterall Holyfields heart was a great strenght and he was smaller than a lot of men he faced.
And if he didnt bulk up, he would have been even smaller against them than he already was. At a cruiser weight he would not have been competitve against the likes of Riddick Bowe or even Burt Cooper. Heart can only take you so far.

I guess the point then would be that Holyfield done it correct and his record and history proves that by bulking up he succeeded.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 22 Jan 2007, 23:24

Yeah but the thing with Rocky was he trained down to 187 pounds, he naturally was 210-220. As an amateur he fought near his actual weight. He trained down like that so he could have the endurance to go 15 rounds punching non-stop.

Myself I wish there were less weightclasses and back to the days when there was only 10 or so pounds apart from each division---then we could see or very well prove that the guys under 211 (HW is 211 and up) could compete with the giants of today.

theone · Post by **theone** » 22 Jan 2007, 23:48

Yeah but the thing with Rocky was he trained down to 187 pounds, he naturally was 210-220. As an amateur he fought near his actual weight. He trained down like that so he could have the endurance to go 15 rounds punching non-stop.

If Rocky trained down from his natural weight it was probably because he knew he would less effective at that higher weight. I cant imagine Rocky with his height, reach and style fighting better at a higher weight. He may have been able to compete and probably dominate in the current heavyweight era at his normal 185lb, but an era or two before would have been a different story.
It would be extremely difficult for him to do much with fighters like Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe and Tyson. Then again it isnt that hard to imagine Samuel Peter being a little too much for the Rock himself.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 23 Jan 2007, 01:17

But I think with the training these days, combined with Rocky's training habits of the past... I think he could make a good transition to the division of today. I still think even at 187 he'd still knock the guys today stiff, but thats just me.

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 23 Jan 2007, 11:12

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:But I think with the training these days, combined with Rocky's training habits of the past... I think he could make a good transition to the division of today. I still think even at 187 he'd still knock the guys today stiff, but thats just me.

Yes he would. What are we looking at here? Heart, unquestionable. Strength, Rocky was strong as a bull. Power, again not a factor, not with Rocky Marciano. I am not saying all cruisers could make the adjustment. To say they all couldn't would be to dismiss half of the world heavyweight champions outright. Rocky would seem quicker as well, at least in comparison to how fast he was vs. Walcott's & Charles. I think the real thing to look at here is whether or not they would be able to take the pounding. The ability to take as little punishment as possible, would be important of course. The Rock was not as easy to hit, as some people think.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 26 Jan 2007, 11:28

theone wrote:
IMO the biggest evidence is that Holyfield, a Crusier, beat many skilled giants after having 'bulked up'. If he can do it then I'm sure the other past greats could have too. A washed up Holyfield fought a close fight with possibly the greatest giant of them all - Lennox Lewis.
But thats the point...he had to bulk up. If he would have fought his heavyweight opponents as a cruiser he would not have been successful.
Holyfield had the height and frame to carry the extra weight comfortable. Also his style of fighting benefited from the extra bulk. That doesnt mean every great fighter south of 200 would have been able to do the same.
For example,with his built and already awkward style, not to mention tender skin, I dont think someone like Marciano would be able to make the transition successfully.

I guess what I tried to imply but failed to...is that today's HWs have already bulked up. Most, if not all, are at least 20lbs bigger due to so called enhancements. I think most of this is done for self-confidence.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 26 Jan 2007, 11:37

BoxBuzz wrote:Could Jack Dempsey do the same thing to the 300+ Valuev? I want to think so....but I'm struggling these days with finding what I believe to be true on this subject.

Well look at this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaigdKiO8Xc

and imagine Marciano or Dempsey there instead of Bidenko.

185 lb. champ

185 lb. champ

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185 lb. champ

Re: 185 lb. champ

185 lb. champ