The real problem with our amateur boxers and program is....

davetko · Post by **davetko** » 23 Jan 2007, 11:52

You know whats funny. Once guys turn pro, how many give back? How many give back with their time or financially? We have problems financially and organizationally in USA boxing, why don't our directors search for donations from promoters? Reach out and explain that amateur boxing is your "farm system"....thoughts???

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2007, 12:40

davetko wrote:You know whats funny. Once guys turn pro, how many give back? How many give back with their time or financially? We have problems financially and organizationally in USA boxing, why don't our directors search for donations from promoters? Reach out and explain that amateur boxing is your "farm system"....thoughts???

Everyone seems to want a guaranteed return on investment. I agree that we need to get sponsorships, endorsements, donations, etc. to help amateur boxing. The Golden Gloves has done a good job with name recognition and obtaining funding and yet there is always a rift between the NGB (currently USA Boxing) and the Golden Gloves. I would like to see them work together better and use the power of the Golden Gloves name to boost amateur boxing. The NGB is not going to do that by devaluing the National Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions by awarding substantially lower point for the tournament in the USAB ranking system. The NGB is also not going to do it by holding the Midwestern Trials in early April 2007 when that conflicts with many of the local and regional GG Tournaments. It also is a problem to have two open qualifying tournaments being held at the same time. Some boxers will be able to participate in both while others can't because the Midwestern Trials is scheduled (date just set - hopefully to be rescheduled) at the same time as their state or regional Golden Gloves tournament (dates set many months ago).

Any thoughts about the above?

davetko · Post by **davetko** » 23 Jan 2007, 13:11

Golden Gloves is the most recognized tournament in the US....however if I had my choice in winning a tournament it would be the US CHampionships, because stipends and international trips hinge on your finish. The funny part is that in our lbc, and others I am sure, people don't come out for this tournament!!!!

Golden Gloves does a much better job promoting and marketing there events, no doubt. Hopefully our new board will be able to fix these things!

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 23 Jan 2007, 13:57

All Golden Gloves offers is name recognition and a once-a-year national tournament. And from what I've heard, the national tournament doesn't draw the number of spectators as it used to. Since they are not the NGB, their funding comes from a different source than does USAB. As Davetko said, the best route to international competition is through USAB. I also think people forget that there is no difference between "USAB" boxers and "GG" boxers and "PAL boxers." They are the same athlete. In my opinion, USAB does should not work the NGB schedule around the GG pre-national qualifiers.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2007, 14:35

boxmel wrote:All Golden Gloves offers is name recognition and a once-a-year national tournament. And from what I've heard, the national tournament doesn't draw the number of spectators as it used to. Since they are not the NGB, their funding comes from a different source than does USAB. As Davetko said, the best route to international competition is through USAB. I also think people forget that there is no difference between "USAB" boxers and "GG" boxers and "PAL boxers." They are the same athlete. In my opinion, USAB does should not work the NGB schedule around the GG pre-national qualifiers.

Mel - I'm not sure why you despise the Golden Gloves so much, but I find that it is a worthwile organization. It happens to support several boxing gyms in our area (including the one where I coach) and offers scholarships.

The National Golden Gloves tournament still draws more fans than any other national tournament. The state Golden Gloves tournaments draw way more fans than do the USAB state open tournaments. I am very upset that boxers are having to choose whether to box in front of thousands of local supporters of amateur boxing or go to the Midwestern Trials. It does not have to happen that way. The Golden Gloves is the only tournament that had its dates last year. The other tournaments had TBD for their dates. Finally, USAB does have to try to work their schedule around the Golden Gloves according to the Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act of 1998 which controls all NGB's. USAB hasn't shown that it has tried. The Ted Stevens Act states the following: "
§220524 General duties of national governing bodies
For the sport that it governs, a national governing body shall—
(1) develop interest and participation throughout the United States and be responsible to the persons and amateur sports organizations it represents;
(2) minimize, through coordination with other amateur sports organi-zations, conflicts in the scheduling of all practices and competitions;
emphasis added.
Therefore, the NGB is required to try to minimize the scheduling conflicts.

I hope USAB changes the dates of the Midwestern Trials.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 23 Jan 2007, 15:03

Mel - I'm not sure why you despise the Golden Gloves so much

,

I don't "despise" them. I just don't like the way they break the rules, locally and nationally.

The state Golden Gloves tournaments draw way more fans than do the USAB state open tournaments.

Maybe in your area but the above is not the norm throughout the U.S. We have the largest LBC in the country and the only people who attend our State tournament are friends, families, other boxers, and a few VIP donors.

I am very upset that boxers are having to choose whether to box in front of thousands of local supporters of amateur boxing or go to the Midwestern Trials.

What's more important to getting to the U.S. Championships - boxing in front of thousands of local supporters or competing in qualifying tournaments?

The Golden Gloves is the only tournament that had its dates last year.

Yes - for the national tournament and USAB did and does work around the national date - every year. The local and State tournaments are scheduled by the local and State people. And in our LBC, the dates aren't known until the end of the year or later. It isn't USAB's job, or responsibility, to find out the dates of every LBC and/or State schedule and work around those dates.

Finally, USAB does have to try to work their schedule around the Golden Gloves

ONLY the national tournament, Dennis. The Ted Stevens Act does NOT include local and state tournaments. And if you want me to query the USOC on this, I will.

The biggest scheduling problem is the fact that we're qualifying our Olympic team a year early. Hopefully those in power will see what a mess it has caused this year and not do it again.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2007, 16:24

Mel - you and I will disagree on many of your points, but I'm not going to debate the topic with you here on this forum. I have no problem debating the topic, but this is not the appropriate forum to do so. I am just opening up dialogue about the problem to let the boxing public know that the problem exists and see if there is a way to resolve the problem.

OK, you don't DESPISE the Golden Gloves, you just DISLIKE the organization. It is apparent in other comments that you have made in regard to NOT attending Golden Gloves events, etc. I will leave it at that.

Mel you stated

What's more important to getting to the U.S. Championships - boxing in front of thousands of local supporters or competing in qualifying tournaments?

You are missing the point. The Golden Gloves is a qualifying tournament and you get an automatic bye into the quarter-finals of the US Championships. A boxer should not have to choose between two qualifying tournaments when other boxers located elsewhere do not have to choose since they can enter both.

By the way, the Michigan Golden Gloves did have its dates last fall and did notify USAB at that time. USAB knew about the dates and scheduled the Midwestern Trials at dates that would conflict with the Michigan Golden Gloves. The Ted Stevens Act does say "all practices and competitions" and is not limited to just national competitions. The USOC may interpret the Act in a different way, but I'm just using the legal standard of statutory construction called the "plain meaning rule". The rule states that if the words in the statute are clear and unambiguous, then they should be given their plain and ordinary meaning and should be enforced as written.

I agree with you Mel that one of the biggest scheduling problem is the fact that we're qualifying our Olympic team a year early. The other scheduling problems was USAB's decision to try to appease A2P (or dare I say capitulate to the initial demands of A2P) by changing the dates of the US Championships from early in the year to June and changing the Olympic trials process. I agree with you about hoping that those in power will see what a mess it has caused this year and not do it again.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 23 Jan 2007, 16:54

Mel - you and I will disagree on many of your points, but I'm not going to debate the topic with you here on this forum.

You brought it up and I responded.

Mel you stated: What's more important to getting to the U.S. Championships - boxing in front of thousands of local supporters or competing in qualifying tournaments?

I was responding to your actual statement re boxing in front of thousands of local supporters. I apologize if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make.

You are missing the point. The Golden Gloves is a qualifying tournament and you get an automatic bye into the quarter-finals of the US Championships.

Got that. Your statement sounded like "boxing in front of thousands of local supporters" was more important. Again, my apologies if I misunderstood. I tend to take comments literally some times.

By the way, the Michigan Golden Gloves did have its dates last fall and did notify USAB at that time. USAB knew about the dates and scheduled the Midwestern Trials at dates that would conflict with the Michigan Golden Gloves.

So you're saying that USAB should have waited for every LBC/franchise to forward their local and/or state tournament dates before scheduling the Mid-Western?

The Ted Stevens Act does say "all practices and competitions" and is not limited to just national competitions.

That's your interpretation.

The USOC may interpret the Act in a different way

And their interpretation/understanding is what dictates how USAB functions.

but I'm just using the legal standard of statutory construction called the "plain meaning rule". The rule states that if the words in the statute are clear and unambiguous, then they should be given their plain and ordinary meaning and should be enforced as written.

Ahhhhh, the rationale. I love it!

The other scheduling problems was USAB's decision to try to appease A2P (or dare I say capitulate to the initial demands of A2P) by changing the dates of the US Championships from early in the year to June and changing the Olympic trials process.

And when it became apparent that A2P was going to, and did, disolve the agreement before the end of last year, why didn't USAB rearrange the qualifying schedule?

I agree with you about hoping that those in power will see what a mess it has caused this year and not do it again.

AMEN!!!!

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2007, 19:36

boxmel wrote:
The Ted Stevens Act does say "all practices and competitions" and is not limited to just national competitions.
That's your interpretation.

The USOC may interpret the Act in a different way
And their interpretation/understanding is what dictates how USAB functions.

but I'm just using the legal standard of statutory construction called the "plain meaning rule". The rule states that if the words in the statute are clear and unambiguous, then they should be given their plain and ordinary meaning and should be enforced as written.
Ahhhhh, the rationale. I love it!

What can I say, I'm an attorney!

The other scheduling problems was USAB's decision to try to appease A2P (or dare I say capitulate to the initial demands of A2P) by changing the dates of the US Championships from early in the year to June and changing the Olympic trials process.

And when it became apparent that A2P was going to, and did, disolve the agreement before the end of last year, why didn't USAB rearrange the qualifying schedule?

I wish they would have done so.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 23 Jan 2007, 19:55

What can I say, I'm an attorney!

Uhhh - do you know how scary that is???? And a coach, too??? Heck of a combination!!!!

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2007, 22:41

boxmel wrote:
What can I say, I'm an attorney!
Uhhh - do you know how scary that is???? And a coach, too??? Heck of a combination!!!!

To top it off, I get in there and spar with all the guys too.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 23 Jan 2007, 22:59

Sheesh! A multi-tasking lawyer coach. Tooooo much!!!!!!! I really do, sincerely, hope we meet in person one of these days.

ARamos3 · Post by **ARamos3** » 24 Jan 2007, 01:14

boxmel wrote:
Mel - I'm not sure why you despise the Golden Gloves so much

,

I don't "despise" them. I just don't like the way they break the rules, locally and nationally.

I can 2nd this here. Back in 95 during the Texas State GG finals, guess who my ref was? Lawrence Cole. We actually had a shouting match during the bout, between rounds and after the decision was announced. After he was "forced" to raise my hand his words were, "well, i'm a professional ref. so you'll be seeing me again, I'll remember". Imagine if something like this would happen in Colorado Springs!

I've never liked the GG, never have, never will.

ringrat4life · Post by **ringrat4life** » 25 Jan 2007, 03:03

ARamos3 · Post by **ARamos3** » 25 Jan 2007, 14:18

ringrat4life wrote:I feel that more importanly athletes should be tought from the start that amatuer boxing is for sport, and pro boxing is for business and not get confused. Most athletes I believe don't know the truth, as most boxers enter into the business thinking that they are going to get rich after not having much growing up. I feel most boxers do come from lower income family's that are looking for a better way of life. If they only knew that only about 2% of boxers make good money in this very crooked profesional business, that has been proven to be filled with crooks just looking to rip off athletes. If I could redo anything in my life it would be to have never turned pro.

How was your amateur career? Pro career?

ringrat4life · Post by **ringrat4life** » 25 Jan 2007, 15:09

ARamos3 · Post by **ARamos3** » 25 Jan 2007, 15:38

ringrat4life wrote:I won JO Nationals(80), and Open USA Nationals(82). BoxRec.com Has me at 18-6-1, I retired in 1999 and I am now a coach and LBC vice prez.

So you had somewhat of a successful career.

Although not ALL boxers will be millionaires one day the sport teaches you the discipline you need to be successful in life.

What LBC are you out of ?

ringrat4life · Post by **ringrat4life** » 25 Jan 2007, 16:55

ARamos3 · Post by **ARamos3** » 25 Jan 2007, 17:44

ringrat4life wrote:I am from LBC #38... Yes I feel I had a good career, but I never got rich, and I never bought my mother the home I promised her. Pro boxing is a very dirty business, as I said before I would have never turned pro... I just wish that we were able to teach our athletes a little more about the business, so that they know what they are getting into as they go pro. I wasted a lot of hard earned money on living a life that wasn't mine. I should have invested more of my money, that way I would have been more secure with my future.

Investing, that's a totally different subject. lol

But I agree, we should teach our boxers a little more than just a jab.

boxmel · Post by **boxmel** » 25 Jan 2007, 19:51

Art, LBC 38 is Northern California. We usually beat them at State Golden Gloves.

boxfan08 · Post by **boxfan08** » 26 Jan 2007, 20:25

USA Boxing has to fit three regional qualifiers in a six week period and make sure not to interfere the Golden Gloves national championships. If they put regional qualifiers in back to back weeks everyone would have a fit.

No athlete is required to go to the Midwestern Trials, if their franchise tournament is during the Midwesterns, they can chose to go to the Easterns or Westerns or both if they so, choose.

In that short period of time, there is no way to find time to place all three qualifying events in a week that doesn't conflict with anything.

All the qualifying events need to be done by mid-May ish with nationals in early June. While noone wants to cause boxers to choose between the two, its the situation that has been laid out with the lack of time for qualifying and if the boxer chooses to go to the Golden Gloves they can still go to the Eastern and Midwesterns.

ringrat4life · Post by **ringrat4life** » 26 Jan 2007, 23:31

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 27 Jan 2007, 23:47

Talk to the average person and talk about boxing and they will ask about the "Golden Gloves". An amateur boxer can say he is a State open champion or a State Golden Gloves champion and the general public is only interested in the Golden Gloves. The only thing that has better name recognition is the Olympics, but with the lack of TV coverage for boxing that may not continue.

ringrat4life · Post by **ringrat4life** » 28 Jan 2007, 00:09

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 28 Jan 2007, 20:45

ringrat4life wrote:Dennis,

Unfortunately you are right about the GG. Like I said before in 35 years of boxing I have only been to the GG's one time. People always ask though, have you won the GG as I wear a GG necklace on my neck. I always answer yes to avoid explaining to them the bigger event... USA Boxing Championships, that I did win in '82' when it was USA/ABF...

You say you went once and won't ever go back. You also wonder why people put so much emphasis on the Golden Gloves and yet you wear a Golden Gloves necklace. It is called name recognition and you are supporting it by wearing the necklace. LOL.