Henry Cooper or Frank Bruno who achieved the most?

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 09 Mar 2007, 08:34

In historical terms, it seems to be Cooper

He gave a prime Ali a run for his money, hes been knighted for his contribution to boxing, and Boxrec ranks him well above frank in the all time HW ratings

Yet Cooper never won a world title, Frank did.
Cooper has 14 defeats on his record (alot considering, and got pulverised every time he stepped into wold class i.e lloyd Patterson) and lost at Euorpean and British level.

Every guy Frank lost to was a world champion (again there is no shame in losing to all time greats like Lewis and Tyson) and Frank did a good job of demolishing all the B grade fringe contenders put in front of him to earn his title shots.

So should Frank be ranked higher than Henry due to his better fight record and world title?

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 09 Mar 2007, 09:16

I think Bruno accomplished a bit more than Cooper, with his WBC title belt and he always put up a great fight even when losing (except for the 2nd Tyson fight)

Ps. the boxrec all-time rankings mean jack shit, theyre calculated by a mathematical algorithm and throw up all sorts of strange rankings.

Andy Mac · Post by **Andy Mac** » 09 Mar 2007, 09:22

They are called National Institutions, and there are 3 of them.

The queen mother, Bobby Charlton, and Henry Cooper, all held in the highest esteem.

A great example was when Lloyds Insurance nearly crashed, everyone felt sorry for poor old " Enry " but all the other " names " were greedy bastards.

Roars Like Me · Post by **Roars Like Me** » 09 Mar 2007, 09:45

The only way would have ben to swap them into each others eras.
It did seem to me that Henry had to fight a higher calibre of fighter.
Not sure Henry would have had the power to shake Tyson like Frank did.
The same couold be said for Frank aginst Ali, I think Ali would have seen Frank throw a punch a mile off.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 09 Mar 2007, 11:08

Bruno by far in my book who I'd rate a top5 competitor at his peak and beat some contenders/champs of the time, which rate above Coopers wins. Coetzer, McCall, Tillis and Coetzee just rate a bit above Coopers best wins. He also gave Tyson and Lennox 2 of their toughest career fights. All this doesn't even do Bruno justice, he had a fantastic jab, nice stick move boxing in his prime, truly great KO power and was probably only a bit of fighting instinct and trickery away from been a great HW himself

Cooper got lucky against a complacent Ali and everytime he fought a top10 competitor he'd get taken out pretty easily - Johansson, Paterson, Ali and Folley making short work of him and all had an easy time of it despite him catching ALi and him also winning a decision against Folley. HE also has many losses against domestic level fighters. Henry was a decent British champion but gets seriously overhyped by landing a lucky shot that he couldnt even capitalise on.

If they ever fought Bruno would KO 'Our 'Enry' early

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 09 Mar 2007, 12:55

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Bruno by far in my book who I'd rate a top5 competitor at his peak and beat some contenders/champs of the time, which rate above Coopers wins. Coetzer, McCall, Tillis and Coetzee just rate a bit above Coopers best wins. He also gave Tyson and Lennox 2 of their toughest career fights. All this doesn't even do Bruno justice, he had a fantastic jab, nice stick move boxing in his prime, truly great KO power and was probably only a bit of fighting instinct and trickery away from been a great HW himself

Cooper got lucky against a complacent Ali and everytime he fought a top10 competitor he'd get taken out pretty easily - Johansson, Paterson, Ali and Folley making short work of him and all had an easy time of it despite him catching ALi and him also winning a decision against Folley. HE also has many losses against domestic level fighters. Henry was a decent British champion but gets seriously overhyped by landing a lucky shot that he couldnt even capitalise on.

If they ever fought Bruno would KO 'Our 'Enry' early

Cooper never weighted more than 200lbs his entire career. In fact he'd of been a cruiser for most of it when they fought at 190! Personally I think Cooper fought in a much stronger era than Bruno and had far fewer options in terms of routes to a title. Henry by a hair.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 09 Mar 2007, 13:05

We've gone on a tangent here.

Obviously being the bigger man i'd favour Bruno in a fight between the two, but the point of the post is based on achievement.

Bruno got the world title, yet Cooper seems to be held in higher regard

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 09 Mar 2007, 13:09

Bruno well ahead of Cooper, who has always been badly overrated. I'd rank Bugner above Cooper too.

1) Lewis
2) Bugner
3) Bruno
4) Cooper

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 09 Mar 2007, 13:21

What did Cooper actually ever achieve? What wins of note does he have? I think Cooper is romanced. And whoever puts Bugner above them both is a bit wide of the mark for my money

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 09 Mar 2007, 13:35

Bugner would have been a world champion a decade either side of the one he peaked in. He certainly would have beaten the same people Bruno did.

tigerpomfret · Post by **tigerpomfret** » 12 Mar 2007, 14:54

Both were so so overated,and screwed the british boxing public big time,just as khan and warren do now,but Cooper,who was put on his ass 18 times...YES t18 times against lesser opposition than ALL the big hitters and do not forget...his superb manager made sure he hid away from all the real big hitting yanks ,and he had an awful record,but at least kept the British title worth fighting for.
As for Joe Bugner,so far superior in class than both of those 2 put together,shame he never had a heart to go wiothg it,but even so his record speaks for itself,in the greatest heavyweight boxing era...to be continued...as....coopers so called "hammer"

who never evr knock a top fighter out....

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 12 Mar 2007, 17:08

Cooper is a hugely over rated heavyweight.
How Cooper has a knighthood and the likes of Lennox Lewis have'nt is nothing short of a disgrace really.
Bruno acheived a lot more than Cooper did,and if they fought prime for prime,Frank KO's him inside 8 rounds.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 13 Mar 2007, 09:25

oliverfennell wrote:Bugner would have been a world champion a decade either side of the one he peaked in. He certainly would have beaten the same people Bruno did.

The 4 guys who beat Bruno would beat Bugner with far less a struggle IMO.

Now look at some of the people Bugner lost to... Jack Bodell and Larry Middleton would not be champions in any era, nor Marvis Frazier of Steffen Tangstad (well, maybe today)

Bruno beat Oliver McCall, conversely Bugner lost to Lyle and Shavers.... I cant hold Bugner above Bruno purely for him going into his shell and surviving the distance v two legends.. Yeah Bruno might get stopped, but he's go hell for leather and make far more of an argument in 7 rds than Bugner would in 15.

Bruuuuno, Bruuuuno, Bruuuuno (etc)

PugilistSpecial · Post by **PugilistSpecial** » 13 Mar 2007, 09:58

Thats not even a valid question. Cooper was a class above, regardless of titles. Lennox Lewis was a league up again mind, though he's barely British anyway. I think a better comparison to Frank Bruno would be Herbie Hide.......

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 13 Mar 2007, 11:20

Go on then, make that comparison!

Can't see it myself.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 13 Mar 2007, 11:59

How can anyone honestly claim Henry Cooper was a class above Frank Bruno?
Who exactly did Cooper beat? Every time the man stepped up in class,he got out classed.

Cooper was a light heavyweight,fighting at heavyweight.That's still no reason to over rate him as a heavyweight.Bruno would have knocked him senseless!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 13 Mar 2007, 12:21

oliverfennell wrote:Bugner would have been a world champion a decade either side of the one he peaked in. He certainly would have beaten the same people Bruno did.

Bugner was far too timid to have been a champion in ANY era. The guy quite simply was not a natural fighter. He was a good athlete who went into boxing to make some money, not a guy who wanted to fight.

Surviving against big name fighters has garnered him lots of praise, but those were fights that he could have won in some cases, had he had a bit more go in him. He never really tried to win his biggest fights, merely look good by surviving.

PugilistSpecial · Post by **PugilistSpecial** » 13 Mar 2007, 16:03

yiddo14 wrote:How can anyone honestly claim Henry Cooper was a class above Frank Bruno?
Who exactly did Cooper beat? Every time the man stepped up in class,he got out classed.

Cooper was a light heavyweight,fighting at heavyweight.That's still no reason to over rate him as a heavyweight.Bruno would have knocked him senseless!

Okay, heres my case. Although Henry Cooper lost quite a few, it was because he mixed it at a very high level. Heavyweights werent as big back then, so more boxers competed at the weight, plus boxing as a sport was much, much more popular, enhancing the talent pool even further. Now if you take a glance at Coopers record it reads like a whos who of hevyweights in the sixties. He mixed it with the likes of Ali, Patterson, Mildenberger,Ingemar Johansson,Zora Folley, Brian London (who was the man in the UK at heavywt), Joe Erskine etc. He reigned on and off as British champion for a decade!! Only Bombardier Billy Wells has ever reigned for longer. I could go on but this post is getting a bit long.........
Well?

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 14 Mar 2007, 08:36

Bruno lost 5 but all to HW champions (plus 3 of the 5 were to Lewis and Tyson who are legends)

Cooper however lost at at Euorpean and even Britsh level!

At least Frank demolished all C and B grade fighters put in front of him

PugilistSpecial · Post by **PugilistSpecial** » 14 Mar 2007, 10:34

How anyone can say that Bruno had the talent Cooper had is absurd. There was so much more competition back then. Bruno would have struggled to win an Area title!!! Dont forget that Bruno's era was the worst in heavyweight history, between Tyson and Holyfield/Lewis....

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 14 Mar 2007, 10:57

The HWs back then would be crusers today. They were small and relatively weak and talk about the talent pool all you want, bottom line is they weren't very talented.

Bottom line Coopers best wins are hardly anything to write home about and 14 losses relegates him to journeyman status

el_grande_mauro_mina · Post by **el_grande_mauro_mina** » 14 Mar 2007, 11:02

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:The HWs back then would be crusers today. They were small and relatively weak and talk about the talent pool all you want, bottom line is they weren't very talented.

Bottom line Coopers best wins are hardly anything to write home about.

Also, Cooper blantantly admits he ducked George Chuvalo because he admits George Chuvalo would have knocked him out.

"Ol' Jim sez that Chuvalo is too ugly. An' they only offered us chump change to go to Canada"

The Empire/Commonwealth seemed not to have the power to strip Cooper of the title for blatantly ducking their no1 challenger. It still irks Chuvalo to this day that he wasn't Commonwealth heavyweight champion.

What irks me however is Cooper getting a knighthood. He really did say (no I'm not joking) That he would have beaten Ali both times if it wasn't for Alis 'negro features'

Cooper must have got his knighthood for services to comedy.

el_grande_mauro_mina · Post by **el_grande_mauro_mina** » 14 Mar 2007, 11:41

Terence wrote:I am not too keen on Our 'Enry. He has traded far too much on that Clay knock-down and, quite cleverly, always leaves a hint of "I could have had him if it wasn't for their gamesmanship" in his comments on the fight.

Cooper was desperate to be world-champion yet didn't his manager turn down a fight with Sonny Liston citing the fact Cooper's eyes would not hold out?

Credit to Bruno, when he got his chances he took them and finally made it in the end.

Bruno's jab Vs Cooper's eye-brows is, for me, a non-contest.

I agree, I think Bruno was a bit pissed off at some of the matchmaking of the Astaire/Duff/Lawless cartel. He went straight in against Tyson and he went in against Tyson knowing what he could do which as our
septics friends always say takes some 'testicular fortitude'

Also you are right Terence regarding Cooper vs Liston with Jim Wicks saying thats Liston was 'too ugly' and called him a 'maghogony wardrobe'

I think the deciding facto would be Brunos jab and Coopers chin! 8)

el_grande_mauro_mina · Post by **el_grande_mauro_mina** » 14 Mar 2007, 12:19

Terence wrote:
Carlos-Wigan wrote:
Terence wrote:I am not too keen on Our 'Enry. He has traded far too much on that Clay knock-down and, quite cleverly, always leaves a hint of "I could have had him if it wasn't for their gamesmanship" in his comments on the fight.

Cooper was desperate to be world-champion yet didn't his manager turn down a fight with Sonny Liston citing the fact Cooper's eyes would not hold out?

Credit to Bruno, when he got his chances he took them and finally made it in the end.

Bruno's jab Vs Cooper's eye-brows is, for me, a non-contest.
I agree, I think Bruno was a bit pissed off at some of the matchmaking of the Astaire/Duff/Lawless cartel. He went straight in against Tyson and he went in against Tyson knowing what he could do which as our
septics friends always say takes some 'testicular fortitude'

Also you are right Terence regarding Cooper vs Liston with Jim Wicks saying thats Liston was 'too ugly' and called him a 'maghogony wardrobe'

I think the deciding facto would be Brunos jab and Coopers chin! 8)
Bruno was a brave enough guy. Not quite sure why he got the fear in Tyson II, Mike was not a force then, Bruno just made him look like one!

A shot would have been a shot. I read a few of Cooper's book when I was a kid and he talked about the second Ali fight and how his one and only chance of a title shot slipped from him. Well he had been made the offer once before.

I think he was offered a shot at Jimmy Ellis and the WBA title in 1970 but he got stripped of his British title. He had his chances despite losing to more or less every big name. Probably his best wins were against
Mildenberger, Folley and Erskine.