LaMotta vs Sugar Ray Leonard

TigerMoth · Post by **TigerMoth** » 29 Apr 2007, 01:11

Obviously, LaMotta gave SRR all he could handle.

How would a fight with SRL differ? Who would win?

Since ring size can be a big factor, assume the ring size at Madison Square Garden during the 50's.

Please include your comments.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 29 Apr 2007, 01:56

Great thread this one.

I suppose I am a bit biased as LaMotta is my favourite middleweight, but I think he would win this one in a close battle.

I like Leonard as a fighter too, but he was not a middleweight.

He didn't have enough fights at middleweight (he didn't have enough fights period) to really be rated with the great middleweights in history.

Both had titanium chins, so I can't see a KO.

I say LaMotta on points in a close fight.

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 29 Apr 2007, 05:48

I would pick SRL by decision, SRL had as good movement and reflexes as SRR and would win by a wide UD.

Elton John · Post by **Elton John** » 29 Apr 2007, 11:01

1987 Leonard I assume. Jake does have a few losses but assuming he's not having major weight issues and feeling strong, I would expect him to come on strong after 5 rounds and exert his will over Leonard and sweep the last several rounds.

However, you can expect another Vegas robbery which are common in that part of the world.

Leonard wins another hotly disputed decision with the result doing wonders for his reputation.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Apr 2007, 11:53

Here's how the Univac Simulator calls this one. Both men in their prime at middleweight. Shades of Hagler Leonard if you ask me.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 29 Apr 2007, 14:09

I dont think SRL would beat the peak, middleweight La Motta. Jake to win on points.
I dont even think he would fight the peak La Motta, hed wait till he was way past his best, agree on a 148lb catchweight match, then steal a decision

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Apr 2007, 14:34

dr_devious wrote:I dont think SRL would beat the peak, middleweight La Motta. Jake to win on points.
I dont even think he would fight the peak La Motta, hed wait till he was way past his best, agree on a 148lb catchweight match, then steal a decision

Pretty much what the sim model reads out.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 29 Apr 2007, 14:58

SRL by a clear decision. He's got the quicker hands, better defense, moves better on his feet, had decent power at MW, and a pretty good chin himself. Had this fight actually occured though, you'd get a certain percentage of idiots who'd insist LaMotta deserved to win if Leonard didn't stand toe to toe with him the whole fight.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 29 Apr 2007, 16:39

Other than the dubious decision he got over the washed up Hagler, who did Leonard beat of note at 160 or above? And barring Ayub Kalule and the above, who did Leonard beat of note above 147 whatsoever. So how does he deserve to start as favourite against Jake La Motta? Leonards second career in the higher weight divisions was a bit of a sham really.

JC · Post by JC » 29 Apr 2007, 19:06

Anyone know the details of Lamotta's loss to Cecil Hudson just piror to the Billy Fox fight? Seems a strange one.

JC · Post by JC » 29 Apr 2007, 19:26

Decagon wrote:
J-C wrote:Anyone know the details of Lamotta's loss to Cecil Hudson just piror to the Billy Fox fight? Seems a strange one.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-30480633.html

Cheers Dec, nice one.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 Apr 2007, 00:01

devious md has this one nailed on the button. if lamotta is still living two years from now, leonard may well challenge him if jake agrees to 16 ounce gloves and leonard 8 ouncers.

in their primes at middleweight (assuming candy ass ever had one) by round five leonard would look like a guy searching the canvas for his contact lenses. doubled over and then crawling to his corner if he could find it.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 30 Apr 2007, 14:40

Yeah, I've considered this fight before... Robinson beat LaMotta 5/6, but they were mostly all tough fights... so you wonder how Leonard does against LaMotta, as Leonard has many of Robinson's qualities but it smaller and not quite as great as the GOAT in Robinson...

Robinson-LaMotta however is funny though. LaMotta had 9-16 pound weight advantages in the first five fights and he still lost 4/5. In the last fight he only had a 5 pound weight edge and Robinson pretty much dominated and stopped him. So obviously if LaMotta had 15 pounds on Leonard, LaMotta is going to win clearly. But while I wouldn't expect Leonard to dominate LaMotta, I think that if Leonard is at 160 and if Leonard is capable of putting on an impressive performance against Hagler and make it a close fight... whether or not Leonard deserved the decision... then he can beat LaMotta.

I would call this one a toss up, but Ray has a good chance.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 30 Apr 2007, 15:34

LaMotta in a clear decision.

A prime Bull was a lot better than the Hagler Ray beat by a nose in 87.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 30 Apr 2007, 16:59

Yeah, that was the other thing I wanted to mention... I wanted to mention the weight factor in LaMotta's good performances with Robinson, and I wanted to mention the fact that Hagler was getting a bit old by the time Ray fought him... but, also, Hagler still had something left, and Hagler had some of the qualities LaMotta had... not just as a come forward Middleweight fighter with a great chin, but as a body puncher with a pretty good jab, LaMotta also had that...

But no, I think Leonard has a good chance. I wouldn't rule out a Leonard win and I wouldn't bet against him... I wouldn't bet for him either. I think this is a toss up.

LaMotta could have had great fights with all of those guys... Hagler-LaMotta would be pretty good considering that Roldan gave Hagler a decent fight... LaMotta would be the clear favorite but a fight with Duran would be exciting as hell... Hearns-LaMotta would also be fascinating...

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 01 May 2007, 05:43

I Feel Fine wrote:Yeah, I've considered this fight before... Robinson beat LaMotta 5/6, but they were mostly all tough fights... so you wonder how Leonard does against LaMotta, as Leonard has many of Robinson's qualities but it smaller and not quite as great as the GOAT in Robinson...

Robinson-LaMotta however is funny though. LaMotta had 9-16 pound weight advantages in the first five fights and he still lost 4/5. In the last fight he only had a 5 pound weight edge and Robinson pretty much dominated and stopped him. So obviously if LaMotta had 15 pounds on Leonard, LaMotta is going to win clearly. But while I wouldn't expect Leonard to dominate LaMotta, I think that if Leonard is at 160 and if Leonard is capable of putting on an impressive performance against Hagler and make it a close fight... whether or not Leonard deserved the decision... then he can beat LaMotta.

I would call this one a toss up, but Ray has a good chance.

Fine,

In that final fight it was close up until about the 10th (can't rememebr exactly). La Motta has the better of Robinson but then just ran out of steam. he seemed to be in the ascendency. I asked guys on the board a while back what they thought happened and most think LaMotta had weight issues and this had a significant effect.

I'd pick LaMotta to win a clsoe one because Leonard didn't campaign enough at the division for me to be confident he could handle this one. Leonard would win 1-2 out of 5, but Jake would be the boss.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 01 May 2007, 07:31

I cant really see SRL fighting LaMotta 5 times, can you?

MEISINGER · Post by **MEISINGER** » 01 May 2007, 07:59

dr_devious wrote:I cant really see SRL fighting LaMotta 5 times, can you?

yeah i can see it but the fights would of been 5-10 years apart.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 01 May 2007, 08:10

When did Leonard give anyone in their primes rematches?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 01 May 2007, 12:48

..leonard would never figth lamotta four more times after he fought the first one....maybe he wouldn't even FIGHT four more times....

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 01 May 2007, 20:34

Decagon wrote:
I Feel Fine wrote:Yeah, I've considered this fight before... Robinson beat LaMotta 5/6, but they were mostly all tough fights... so you wonder how Leonard does against LaMotta, as Leonard has many of Robinson's qualities but it smaller and not quite as great as the GOAT in Robinson...
A lot of people say that LaMotta deserved the decision in three of the first five.

Well I don't know as there's no film of those fights... I do know one of those fights Robinson won was a SD. But again, looking at the 9-16 pound weight advantages LaMotta had, I wouldn't be surprised.

Ezzard... I don't agree that LaMotta had the better of Robinson in their last fight prior to the late rounds, I think Ray was in pretty clear control. I don't know how the judges had it. There may have been weight issues for LaMotta, I just wonder how much of it had to do with the fact that Ray was no longer up to 15 pounds lighter.

I'm not picking Leonard to win, btw, I think that it could be a toss up. I agree it is hard to judge considering Leonard only had one fight at 160... but it was Hagler. It wasn't prime Hagler, but it was a version of Hagler who still had something left, and it was a close fight whether or not Leonard deserved the win. I think LaMotta is the safer pick since he is indeed the bigger guy, I just don't want to rule out the possibility of Leonard pulling out a close decision... I wouldn't put it past him.

Elton John · Post by **Elton John** » 02 May 2007, 00:03

dr_devious wrote:I dont think SRL would beat the peak, middleweight La Motta. Jake to win on points.
I dont even think he would fight the peak La Motta, hed wait till he was way past his best, agree on a 148lb catchweight match, then steal a decision

actually, I don't think Leonard would be remotely interested in lamotta unless he found out Jake had the stomach flu. Then he'd send out a last minute challenge

Elton John · Post by **Elton John** » 02 May 2007, 00:04

dr_devious wrote:When did Leonard give anyone in their primes rematches?

They'll never tell you but the answer is never.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 02 May 2007, 04:41

I Feel Fine wrote:
Ezzard... I don't agree that LaMotta had the better of Robinson in their last fight prior to the late rounds, I think Ray was in pretty clear control. I don't know how the judges had it. There may have been weight issues for LaMotta, I just wonder how much of it had to do with the fact that Ray was no longer up to 15 pounds lighter.

Sorry, the fight was close, what I meant was that La Motta really does seem to be taking over in the round just before the massacre starts. Jake unleashes quite a savage body attack as I remember. It looks as if he is taking over the fight but then it's as if he has nothing left. It seemed to take more out of him than Robinson.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 02 May 2007, 06:30

Didnt Ray Leonard try and actually get La Motta to sign and fight him in about 1988 or 1989? Trouble was, Jake couldnt make 150lbs

LaMotta vs Sugar Ray Leonard

Who would win?

LaMotta vs Sugar Ray Leonard

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