How big can they get?

[tagjohnson]

Todays heavyweights are of course gigantic to those of the past. One thing I was wondering how big can they get? I don't mean individual fighters but how big can top heavyweights on average get? Is there an upper limit? The NBA is well stocked with seven footers with tremendous skill. But seven footers in boxing just aren't there Mike White was never a serious contender and Valuev has been exposed. But until the sixties (Ali) Primo Canera was the only heaveyweight champ over 6'2" So are we going to a division of seven footers in twenty years?

[dempseyfire]

No.

[HomicideHenry]

I would hope not. Thats why I am rooting for Chagaev, seeing as he is only 6' and 228 pounds. He just proved against the tallest, heaviest HW champion (though albiet its the WBA) that the division still has a place for the small men. I would like to see an emurgance of smaller HW's, being as it would be a more fast paced division, meaning better fights.

But it wouldn't surprise me if a few more giants came around, the guys today average 6'5" and weighing in around 240, who knows, the future may hold guys averaging 6'8" and being 260. I would hope not, as all the bigger men have shown is being lugs and a blood drain on the division.

[Jaclem]

....i don't know how big they'll get...but....just to keep the record straight, max baer's height was officially listed as 6'3"....for one fight i saw him at 6'3" and a 1/2...but that was just once and i forget what fight it was.
when ali came along most people didn't realize how big he was...they thought he was a smaller faster guy and those wo saw him against liston for the first time were surprised. when he is matched in fantasy fights i've always pointed out that he was the biggest heavyweight champion since max baer. it was that height, along with his speed that was unusual....and he knew how to use both....the leaning back from a punch, for example that shorter fighters couldn't get by with.

now i am not making a value judgement of ali and am not interested in matching him against anybody. i just wanted to mention max baer and got verbose, which is one of my weaknesses.

[pound per pound]

Todays heavyweights are of course gigantic to those of the past. One thing I was wondering how big can they get? I don't mean individual fighters but how big can top heavyweights on average get? Is there an upper limit? The NBA is well stocked with seven footers with tremendous skill. But seven footers in boxing just aren't there Mike White was never a serious contender and Valuev has been exposed. But until the sixties (Ali) Primo Canera was the only heaveyweight champ over 6'2" So are we going to a division of seven footers in twenty years?

Unknown!

There are two schools of thought.

1 ) It appears that excessive size of 7' and 300+ pounds drains speed, atheletism, and stamina.

or

2 ) The sample of giants in boxing is a short list, and too small to draw conclusions from.

I think there is a bit of truth to both. I think school #1 is more correct. I don’t see 7’ heavyweight champions being the norm in the next 20 years, but I do think the bar has been raised in the heavyweight division in terms of size being an asset. Best guess is the heavyweights in the next 20 years will be about the same size as the heavyweights today. That is plenty of guys will be over 6'3" and 230 pounds.

[KOJOE90]

But until the sixties (Ali) Primo Canera was the only heaveyweight champ over 6'2"

Jess Willard was 6' 6½"

[Tantum]

I read somewhere there was an 1800's champ that was bigger than Valuev... Can't recall his name, though.

[MEISINGER]

I read somewhere there was an 1800's champ that was bigger than Valuev... Can't recall his name, though.

was that mullinax?

[JC]

I read somewhere there was an 1800's champ that was bigger than Valuev... Can't recall his name, though.

was that mullinax?

If you mean Tom Molineaux then no he was around 5' 8", I've never heard of the guy Tantum mentions but who knows.

There's no doubt that on average people have been getting taller over the past hundred years due to improved public health and access to greater amounts of food. However whether this will continue or plateau out remains to be seen.

[pundit]

Todays heavyweights are of course gigantic to those of the past. One thing I was wondering how big can they get? I don't mean individual fighters but how big can top heavyweights on average get? Is there an upper limit? The NBA is well stocked with seven footers with tremendous skill. But seven footers in boxing just aren't there Mike White was never a serious contender and Valuev has been exposed. But until the sixties (Ali) Primo Canera was the only heaveyweight champ over 6'2" So are we going to a division of seven footers in twenty years?

Jess Willard, Jim Braddock and Max Baer were above 6'2, Jack Johnson may have been too (he looks taller than Jeffries on film and Jeffries was allegedly 6'2).

Anyway, you're right of course. What is even more spectacular than the increase in height is the increase in weight though -- since the early 1980s the weight increase has outpaced the height increase, in fact. Even 6'1 heavyweights come in at 230-240 pounds today; they used to come in at 200-210.

[Seamus]

Little Chagaev was still considerably heavier than the old time heavyweights who get discussed most often on this forum. Personally I don't think we'll ever see another dominant heavyweight under 215-220, and I doubt all the hypothetical arguments in the world will make it happen. It's a very big man's division now.

[tagjohnson]

I forgot about Willard but Max was usually listed at 6'2" but I wasn't talking about an inch or two or a few pounds. I was talking about the divison being ruled til the fifties by men 6' to 6'2" and around 200 lbs and today we have the Klitschkos and Lewis's at give or take an inch or six and a half feet tall and around 250lbs. I mentioned basketball for a reason, there is a league of some very atheletic seven footers in the NBA. So will the heavyweights grow like the NBA and for that matter the general population? I don't know but it will be interesting to watch. BTW One of our brothers mentioned that today's heavyweights are considerably heavier than those of the past of the same height i.e., 250 lb six-footers. Good point, is it nutrition, weightlifiting, airconditioning? Something else? A combination? Everybody have a good one. Tag

[Grilling Machine]

Most NBA players are slim though. You could mention WWE for examples of overall giants, but the talent isn't there; for boxing at least.

[dempseyfire]

Little Chagaev was still considerably heavier than the old time heavyweights who get discussed most often on this forum. Personally I don't think we'll ever see another dominant heavyweight under 215-220, and I doubt all the hypothetical arguments in the world will make it happen. It's a very big man's division now.

Chagaev in top shape would be 215-220. Have you seen his physique? . . in the 230s he definetely does not have the body of a top professional athlete.
Why doesn't he weigh that low?

Discipline. Just like all the other HWs today.

[Seamus]

No, he didn't look at all ripped against Valuev, but he did display good head movement, counterpunched well, and didn't run out of gas against a much larger opponent. He's winning fights just the way he is, and I doubt he's considering dropping 10-15 lbs for his next bout.

[dempseyfire]

No, he didn't look at all ripped against Valuev, but he did display good head movement, counterpunched well, and didn't run out of gas against a much larger opponent. He's winning fights just the way he is, and I doubt he's considering dropping 10-15 lbs for his next bout.

The bout was fairly slow-paced, and Ruslan did noticeably fatigue around the 7th-8th, but got somewhat of a 2nd wind in the championship rounds. Considering the bout was largely devoid of clinching, Valuev's size doesn't factor into the equation as much as it normally would.

I've seen several of Chagaev's fights, and he usually does tire around mid-fight. His opponents haven't been in the kind of condition to test that. His weight also contributes to his awfully slow footwork. Vs a fellow plodder like Valuev, it doesn't matter too much. Vs a guy who can move with speed, like a Klitschko or Chambers, Chagaev needs to develop his footwork and get on his toes so he can catch these guys and set up on them. Chagaev is lucky Byrd and Toney have past their time in the sun, b/c they would both give him hell just a few years back.

He's a good fighter now.

At a ripped 215, he could be great.

[tagjohnson]

Good point about the wrestlers. It's fake of cousre but they are gigantic and quite atheletic. True about the NBA players being slim but their height/weight proportions are comparable to fighters. Something occurred to me, If extremely large fighters could move into the heavyweight divison and take it over, why haven't they done it yet? The monsters you see playing linemen in the NFL or playing in the NBA have been around for quite a while, maybe seven footers just can't do it in boxing.

[Diamond WEAPON]

Good point about the wrestlers. It's fake of cousre but they are gigantic and quite atheletic. True about the NBA players being slim but their height/weight proportions are comparable to fighters. Something occurred to me, If extremely large fighters could move into the heavyweight divison and take it over, why haven't they done it yet? The monsters you see playing linemen in the NFL or playing in the NBA have been around for quite a while, maybe seven footers just can't do it in boxing.

Well I imagine a lot of NFL players and the guards and forwards of the NBA could/could've been great fighters had they pursued boxing rather than their respective sports considering their strength and athleticism, however some of the bigger guys could likely be to buff or simply too huge in height and weight to have enough speed, agility, and coordination to truly excell. I mean at 7'1" Shaq is very manueverable on a large basketball court (one of the best moving centers in the game) but imagine him in a much smaller boxing ring, plus he's one of the more agile centers and even with that he's still not as agile as somebody like Kobe Bryant who's 6'6" who's overall athleticism surely trumps O'Neil's. Nicolay Valuev for instance got a lot of shit for his being not all that special skil, speed,l or power wise, but compared to all of the giants that have appeared in the past couple decades of the division, he was actually a pretty damn good boxer with a good chin, whereas the other giants were much like Goliath, huge and intimidating but deep down were nothing special and got KTFO.

[dempseyfire]

Good point about the wrestlers. It's fake of cousre but they are gigantic and quite atheletic. True about the NBA players being slim but their height/weight proportions are comparable to fighters. Something occurred to me, If extremely large fighters could move into the heavyweight divison and take it over, why haven't they done it yet? The monsters you see playing linemen in the NFL or playing in the NBA have been around for quite a while, maybe seven footers just can't do it in boxing.

Well I imagine a lot of NFL players and the guards and forwards of the NBA could/could've been great fighters had they pursued boxing rather than their respective sports considering their strength and athleticism, however some of the bigger guys could likely be to buff or simply too huge in height and weight to have enough speed, agility, and coordination to truly excell. I mean at 7'1" Shaq is very manueverable on a large basketball court (one of the best moving centers in the game) but imagine him in a much smaller boxing ring, plus he's one of the more agile centers and even with that he's still not as agile as somebody like Kobe Bryant who's 6'6" who's overall athleticism surely trumps O'Neil's. Nicolay Valuev for instance got a lot of shit for his being not all that special skil, speed,l or power wise, but compared to all of the giants that have appeared in the past couple decades of the division, he was actually a pretty damn good boxer with a good chin, whereas the other giants were much like Goliath, huge and intimidating but deep down were nothing special and got KTFO.

Being big and athletic means very little in determining how they would be as a boxer.

[tagjohnson]

I was using a generality by using the term "giant" but in basically 6'10" plus. As pointed out today's average sized heavyweight is huge compared to just thirty years ago. Dempseyfire you are correct size alone does not make anyone a good fighter. But there is till the old saw about the good big man vs the good little man.

[HomicideHenry]

Tantum, your probably thinking of Charles Freeman who was 7'3" at death, though was exaggerated to as much as 7'6". He was around 6'10" or 6'11" when he fought though, claiming to be the American champion under the London Prize Ring rules, though he was no more than a circus strong man and acrobat. He dealt William Perry quite a beating, who was the English champion.

[Jaclem]

...apparently this freeman guy grew a few inches when he died....

[Tantum]

Yes, Charles Freeman, that's the fella.

[Jan]

The anverage height ( of HW-Fighters) will not grow anymore (much). The average HW today is about 6-3 ( if we forget the possibility that fighters often are listed taller than they really are. Frazier for example was listed as 5 11.5, but he is supposed to be 5-9 by some people.) I dont think that it will be normal in the future, when a fighter is 7 F. Even today Valuev is an attraction
with 7 F and maybe only Julius Long is taller. The physical limits did not change in the past, but the growth-poteal is utilized nearly perfectly today.
And there were many REALLY tall fighters in the past.

[HomicideHenry]

...apparently this freeman guy grew a few inches when he died....

Was a victim of gigantism from what I understand. Freeman was gigantic for the times at 6'10"-6'11" anyways, considering the average height of a grown man was around 5'8". Hell Abraham Lincoln at 6'4" used to 'promote' himself when he ran for President as being the 'tallest' in America, offering a silver dollar to whoever could match his height. To my knowledge the tallest men in America at that time were Martin Van Buren Bates (7'2.5", claimed to be 7'5") and a soldier who was listed as 7'3" [the name escapes me at the moment].

Angus McKaskill (born in Scotland, moved to Canada as a young boy) was 7'9" and still holds the Guinness Record for being the tallest naturally grown man, he too, was from that era. As was another Canadian named Edouard Beaupre who claimed to be over 8' but was nearer to 7'8", he suffered from gigantism.

Course, Freeman could be very much like a case I read about years back of another Scotsman who was only 6'10" by the name of Samuel McDonald and claimed to be 8' in height. But to my knowledge his last authenticated height was 7'3" [Freeman, that is].