Referee on Pavlik Miranda

E · Post by E » 20 May 2007, 13:56

Can't believe noone has remarked on this...the ref was AWFUL. MIranda landed some horrible low blows and no point (I can live with this) but then gives Miranda 30 seconds after the knockdown to replace the mouthpiece etc when he was about to go. Surely a point deduction would be warranted as he spat his shield out.

Then after the second knockdown he gives Miranda about 15 seconds asking him if he's all right loads of time and asking him to move forward etc etc

HE really appeared biased here.....

states · Post by **states** » 20 May 2007, 14:39

I've read that Smoger did deduct a point for the quite blatant spitting out of the gumshield after the first knockdown. I must have missed it myself, but I agree, Miranda should never have made it out of the 6th round. The clock should have been stopped at least. At least justice was done in the 7th.

As for the low blows, Miranda seems to do it every time the going gets rough. I accept it's hard to be totally controlled when the action is as non-stop as it was last night, but I was almost wishing Pavlik would take a leaf out of Hatton's book and absolutely drill one into Miranda's nuts. It's to his credit that he didn't.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 20 May 2007, 14:51

Yeah, the ref was very poor when Miranda was kncoked down, to say that he gave him the benifit of a long count and a break before the action resumed is an understatement!... I think people havent commented much on it because it didnt change the result anyway, ....had Miranda come back to win though it would have been a mayjor talking point...

Jabby · Post by **Jabby** » 20 May 2007, 16:01

I was at the fight. Smoger, in fact, took a point away for the spitting of the mouthpiece. As far as long counts are concerned, what Smoger was doing was getting a good analysis of Miranda before he would let it continue. This is entirely within the rules, within his purvue and within his ethics to do it just the way he did it.

As far as Miranda's low blows are concerned, this is professional fighting. This is a tactic used to change the flow of the fight. You of course stand the chance of a referee sanction or a retalitory shot in the gonads. If you do it you can expect either of these things. If your the recipient, don't piss and moan about it. It's part of the game. You know how to answer it.

E · Post by E » 20 May 2007, 16:45

Jabby wrote:I was at the fight. Smoger, in fact, took a point away for the spitting of the mouthpiece. As far as long counts are concerned, what Smoger was doing was getting a good analysis of Miranda before he would let it continue. This is entirely within the rules, within his purvue and within his ethics to do it just the way he did it.

As far as Miranda's low blows are concerned, this is professional fighting. i'This is a tactic used to change the flow of the fight. You of course stand the chance of a referee sanction or a retalitory shot in the gonads. If you do it you can expect either of these things. If your the recipient, don't piss and moan about it. It's part of the game. You know how to answer it.

i'm sure if Pavlik lost or that a fighter you supported lost you would think differently......I think if someone spits out their sheild (rather tahn have it legitimately knocked out) they should just let it go on. IN the middle of the action, if someone loses their shield they wait until there is a break in the action before they take a pause......

Jabby · Post by **Jabby** » 20 May 2007, 22:01

E wrote:i'm sure if Pavlik lost or that a fighter you supported lost you would think differently......I think if someone spits out their sheild (rather tahn have it legitimately knocked out) they should just let it go on. IN the middle of the action, if someone loses their shield they wait until there is a break in the action before they take a pause......

The reason I was at the fight was because I have way more than a fan's interest in Miranda and Taylor - and now Pavlik. What I stated was the interpretation of the rules as they are used today. Of primary concern is a fighter's safety. Letting a bout go on without one fighter's mouthpiece as a penalty for spitting it out is absurd. This is against the rules and completely irresponsible and immoral.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 21 May 2007, 06:41

I thought he was in danger of letting Miranda get killed in there - he took a real beating at the end and it should have been stopped the round before.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 21 May 2007, 06:44

He pratically had to drag him to the corner to replace the mouthpiece, definitely wanted to give him every opportunity to see out the round and get a minutes rest.

lowersmiths · Post by **lowersmiths** » 21 May 2007, 07:54

i think if someone deliberately spits their gumshield out to save time the referee should just let the fight continue without him having it in.

let them risk their teeth being knocked out or jaw broken if they want to try and cheat.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 21 May 2007, 08:40

Although Miranda's spitting out of his mouthpiece was quite deliberate (although how deliberate can a seriously concussed man be?) we would also be going down the lines of the ref having to call what is intentional or not.

Gumshields do come out unintentionally as well

lowersmiths · Post by **lowersmiths** » 21 May 2007, 10:05

it was obviously intentional, the same as corrales against castillo.

what's next, someone pulling down their own shorts to buy a bit of time?

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 21 May 2007, 10:18

E wrote:Can't believe noone has remarked on this...the ref was AWFUL. MIranda landed some horrible low blows and no point (I can live with this) but then gives Miranda 30 seconds after the knockdown to replace the mouthpiece etc when he was about to go. Surely a point deduction would be warranted as he spat his shield out.

Then after the second knockdown he gives Miranda about 15 seconds asking him if he's all right loads of time and asking him to move forward etc etc

HE really appeared biased here.....

I thought the ref done everything OK. Both fighters landed the odd low blow and he verbally warned them each time without stopping the action.

What can the ref do about a boxer spitting his gumshield out, other than get it back in as quick as possible??? Whether or not the fighter should have a point deducted should be determined at the end of the round as to not stop the action and give Miranda even more time to recover.

Excellent fight BTW, Pavlik surprised me the way he was able to constantly push Miranda back and KP's punch output surprised me. 2 exciting fighters to watch

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 May 2007, 10:19

An ESB poster compared Miranda to Mayorga.

Miranda Is limited though.

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 21 May 2007, 10:21

verballistic wrote:
Jabby wrote:
E wrote:i'm sure if Pavlik lost or that a fighter you supported lost you would think differently......I think if someone spits out their sheild (rather tahn have it legitimately knocked out) they should just let it go on. IN the middle of the action, if someone loses their shield they wait until there is a break in the action before they take a pause......
The reason I was at the fight was because I have way more than a fan's interest in Miranda and Taylor - and now Pavlik. What I stated was the interpretation of the rules as they are used today. Of primary concern is a fighter's safety. Letting a bout go on without one fighter's mouthpiece as a penalty for spitting it out is absurd. This is against the rules and completely irresponsible and immoral.
smoger's delay with miranda also pre-empted any possible complaint of a premature stoppage by miranda or his camp!! this was actually one of smoger's BETTER perfromances...did you see savarese-whitaker on HBO 3/6/99? most biased reffing i've ever seen in multiple thousands of fights viewed!!

Surely its not worse than when Santa reffed Ottke - Reid

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 21 May 2007, 18:20

Just watching the ending of that fight again and I have nothing but admiration for Miranda's actions.

Completely fucked, legs totally gone, brain rattling around it's cage and he has the instinct to try and buy himself another 5/10 seconds just so he can fight some more. Almost the ultimate act of bravery in a ring in my opinion.

I know technically it's against the rules but I think the fact he had the smarts and guts to do it almost earned him that little extra time.

And yes the same goes for Corrales when he turned it round against Castillo.

Shirow · Post by **Shirow** » 22 May 2007, 03:35

That sounds too much like condoning cheating if you ask me. Goz, I'm sure you weren't so full of admiration with Akinwande for hugging Lennox to buy time between taking big shots.

If the ref thinks that the gumshield is being spat out intentionally i think the furthest he should go is to not get it washed in the corner. That is really just a courtesy.
I saw i clip on Maxboxing the other month where and exhausted fighter spat out his gumshield and the ref just stuffed it back in his mouth and was ready to wave it on but the fighter immediately spat it out again. The ref waved the fight off as the fighter had in effect refused to fight.
This is the right course of action in my view.

lowersmiths · Post by **lowersmiths** » 22 May 2007, 07:53

spitting the gumshield out is abusing the sportsmanship in the rules to cheat.

it is like a football player going down 'injured' as soon as the opposition have the ball and are racing upfield.

let the boxer continue without a gumshield if that's what he wants.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 22 May 2007, 12:31

I agree if it's done a second time then some kind of action should be taken but I was just trying to make a point that it's not like diving in football or nutting someone, it's just trying to buy 5/10 seconds to let his head clear so he can fight some more and in all likeliness take more punishment.

The fact that he could even think clearly enough to do that amazes me....

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 23 May 2007, 05:04

lowersmiths wrote:spitting the gumshield out is abusing the sportsmanship in the rules to cheat.

it is like a football player going down 'injured' as soon as the opposition have the ball and are racing upfield.

let the boxer continue without a gumshield if that's what he wants.

Yes but you should take into account that the boxer has just been battered repeatedly round the head by a fearsome puncher - so maybe he's not thinking too clearly...which is pretty understandable I'd say.

E · Post by E » 23 May 2007, 05:18

MightyWarrior wrote:
lowersmiths wrote:spitting the gumshield out is abusing the sportsmanship in the rules to cheat.

it is like a football player going down 'injured' as soon as the opposition have the ball and are racing upfield.

let the boxer continue without a gumshield if that's what he wants.
Yes but you should take into account that the boxer has just been battered repeatedly round the head by a fearsome puncher - so maybe he's not thinking too clearly...which is pretty understandable I'd say.

Yes - but if a fighter loses a gumshield DURING the fight the referee allows them to fight on and waits for a pause in the action - and that's when it comes out.

But I do understand that it's probably right to replace the gumshield.

I think there are three options:

1. Ref replaces Gumshield immediately without taking it to the corner to wash it - I mean be serious: a) who has ever been taken ill by a gumshield that has fallen on the floor - what detrirus is there b) if there waws anything dangerous as if squirting some water on it in the corner will make any difference.

2. The ref carries some antiseptic wipes - wipes off the shiled himself.

3. A point is taken away IMMEDIATELY as the offence is deliberate.

Anyone not happy with on eof those solutions?

Coco · Post by **Coco** » 23 May 2007, 06:17

Kick the mouthpiece out of the ring and keep going, ur dealing with fighters not boy scouts.
If the fighter wants to spit it out it's his problem if he continues without it.

Referee on Pavlik Miranda

Referee on Pavlik Miranda

Re: Referee on Pavlik Miranda