Hatton -v- Mayweather: The new Leonard -v- Duran?

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The flashy boxing master with blistering handspeed, footwork & boxing skill against the relentless close combat warrior!

Will this fight be the modern equivalent of Leonard -v- Duran & if so, which one of the fights will it follow?

Forget fight 3, as that was a total farce to pander to SRL's ego, but fights 1 & 2 are the ones to be considered.

Can Ricky draw Floyd into a slugfest, ala Duran in fight 1 or will Floyd do what he does best & outslick Ricky, ala SRL in fight 2?

I cannot for the life of me, see Mayweather going toe to toe with Hatton, but who would have thought that SRL would have gone toe to toe with one of the best infighters in boxing history?

Ricky would have to get under Floyd's skin beforehand, but I simply cannot see that happening, as Ricky is a nice guy, whereas Floyd is the one with the gob.

I think this fight will be like the 2nd SRL-Duran fight, but Ricky won't quit halfway through & probably lose on points.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Lest we forget, it was Duran, the supposed macho savage who buried Leonard in the pre fight verbals, getting under his skin and forcing Leonard into his type of fight.

I hope Ricky winds him right up and tells him he hits like a girl to try and goad Floyd into planting his feet a bit.

[Autobarn]

Floyd's skills are very real - honed from a boxing family when from when he was an infant - but his personality is very very forced.

Mayweather has always had a discrepency between his image and his abilities.

Can you imagine if he got into Hatton's face at a press conference? de la Hoya didn't really know what to do about that apart from bottle it up and keep on saying, "This will fuel me." Hatton wouldn't stand for any of that.

Floyd will probably take a different approach. My guess is it will be the he's not good enough to fight me version.

Hatton's a quick witted bloke. I can see him enjoying all the hype. He's been on big stages - big crowds in Manchester, and has just thrived in Vegas - and I think he's starting to carry his Manchester form into America. Hatton seems to be a person who likes all of this razzle dazzle stuff.

Whereas you'd think Calzaghe and Maccarinelli wouldn't be into all that.

[Ezzard]

I'm usually really pessimistic on our fighter's chances in such a high profile battle but I really think Hatton can win. Floyd is a great fighter but he is not as good as he thinks he is and, despite winning, I don't think he looked great against De La Hoya or Judah.

If Ricky has the stamina to outwork Floyd for 7 out of 5 rounds he can win it. Easily said, but Ricky has the ability to be able to do this.

Mayweather needs a real rival. All the greats have at least one and these 2 could cement one another's legend.

[dondada]

Hatton is a genuine quick wit - if he doesn't bite I can see him really ripping the piss out of Mayweather.

[bennie]

It's not even close to Duran-Leonard. Mayweather fights like he's scared to take a punch; Hatton, like he's scared not to.
Howard Davis vs Boom Boom Mancini.
And forget all the Juanita crap, what really threw Leonard off in the first fight was Duran's dynamite start.

[Ezzard]

It's not even close to Duran-Leonard. Mayweather fights like he's scared to take a punch; Hatton, like he's scared not to.
Howard Davis vs Boom Boom Mancini.
And forget all the Juanita crap, what really threw Leonard off in the first fight was Duran's dynamite start.

Have to agree. Leonard got caught in the second and admits himself that he really didn't know what was happening and by the time his head had cleared Duran had dished out some severe punishment.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

The difference between Duran and Hatton is Duran was a master of slipping, feinting, countering and was actually on par with Leonard in hand speed at mid range. Can these things be said of Hatton? I think not.

Its more of a Ali-Frazier or Chavez-Whitaker fight

[jamesmcdonnell]

Stylistically, the matchup is kind of similar though, one aggressive and in your face, the other slick.

However, Leonard was a lot better (in my opinion) than Mayweather, he dominated future hall of famers like Hearns and Benitez, not picked and poked his way. Hell, at middleweight he stood in the pocket with Hagler at times. He rumbled with Duran in a way Mayweather would never have dared, even though he lost, he fought Durans fight and made it close.

Ricky's not quite so hittable as Mancini, and is a lot cuter too, faster hands and feet, and a better fighting brain than Boom Boom, who was too much balls, and not enough cock.

[KO Artist]

Stylistically, the matchup is kind of similar though, one aggressive and in your face, the other slick.

However, Leonard was a lot better (in my opinion) than Mayweather, he dominated future hall of famers like Hearns and Benitez, not picked and poked his way. Hell, at middleweight he stood in the pocket with Hagler at times. He rumbled with Duran in a way Mayweather would never have dared, even though he lost, he fought Durans fight and made it close.

Ricky's not quite so hittable as Mancini, and is a lot cuter too, faster hands and feet, and a better fighting brain than Boom Boom, who was too much balls, and not enough cock.

I think its more like Cervantes - Pryor

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Stylistically, the matchup is kind of similar though, one aggressive and in your face, the other slick.

However, Leonard was a lot better (in my opinion) than Mayweather, he dominated future hall of famers like Hearns and Benitez, not picked and poked his way. Hell, at middleweight he stood in the pocket with Hagler at times. He rumbled with Duran in a way Mayweather would never have dared, even though he lost, he fought Durans fight and made it close.

Ricky's not quite so hittable as Mancini, and is a lot cuter too, faster hands and feet, and a better fighting brain than Boom Boom, who was too much balls, and not enough cock.

Leonard certainly brings more offensive firepower than MAyweather. Mayweather is a better defensive fighter and has more ring smarts and took far less punnishment than Leonard did. Mayweather also started at 130 whereas Leonard started at 147 - compare 130lb Mayweather to if you want to compare. The 147lb version of Mayweather is fighting above his weight class

If you look at Mayweather against Corrales, Ndou, Manfredy, Corley, Gatti hes not the hugely negative fighter people portray him as. Don't be compleley suprised if he fights in a similar way against Hatton.

There examples of pressure fighters beating boxers and vice versa but that has no reflexion on this fight, its a fight in its own dimensions and is a unique match up with unique variables that will produce a winner

[jamesmcdonnell]

Stylistically, the matchup is kind of similar though, one aggressive and in your face, the other slick.

However, Leonard was a lot better (in my opinion) than Mayweather, he dominated future hall of famers like Hearns and Benitez, not picked and poked his way. Hell, at middleweight he stood in the pocket with Hagler at times. He rumbled with Duran in a way Mayweather would never have dared, even though he lost, he fought Durans fight and made it close.

Ricky's not quite so hittable as Mancini, and is a lot cuter too, faster hands and feet, and a better fighting brain than Boom Boom, who was too much balls, and not enough cock.

Leonard certainly brings more offensive firepower than MAyweather. Mayweather is a better defensive fighter and has more ring smarts and took far less punnishment than Leonard did. Mayweather also started at 130 whereas Leonard started at 147 - compare 130lb Mayweather to if you want to compare. The 147lb version of Mayweather is fighting above his weight class

If you look at Mayweather against Corrales, Ndou, Manfredy, Corley, Gatti hes not the hugely negative fighter people portray him as. Don't be compleley suprised if he fights in a similar way against Hatton.

There examples of pressure fighters beating boxers and vice versa but that has no reflexion on this fight, its a fight in its own dimensions and is a unique match up with unique variables that will produce a winner

I don't think Mayweather is better in ANY department.

If you look at Leonard at 147, he was facing off against fantastic opposition, better than anyone that Mayweather did at 135 or below.

Leonard got hit more because he was facing off against fellow hall of famers.

Leonard weight hopped all the way to 160 and fought an all time great, and made a fight of it too.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Not to mention KO'ing Wilfred Benitez! Something the supposedly monstrous puncher Hearns couldn't do!

In terms of a combination of talent, charisma, defensive and offensive prowess, Leonard stands head and shoulders above everyone else in his generation. He didn't have a huge number of fights, but they were packed with incident, and against the best opposition his era had to offer. Hell, he even tried and failed against Terry Norris for a comeback fight, that's brave as hell considering Norris was a naturally bigger man far younger, and had iced Mugabi in 1 round!

[bennie]

And let's not forget what Leonard did to an aggressive British fighter in the mould of Hatton!

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Ok lets take the rose tinted spetacles off for a moment and put Leonard under the microscope:

Benitez - an enigma with stamina problems due to him only training 2 weeks for fight, premature stoppage, boring fight

Duran 1 - Duran is seen as past his prime, old, a blown up lightweight and ready for the taking. Leonard gets comprehensively outfought and outboxed

Duran 2 - Duran suffers from stomach illness and looks terrible after supposedly partying none stop since the last fight. This wasn't the same Duran by any means. Leonard fights a very cautious boring match. DURAN SUPPOSEDLY QUITS DUE TO A DIARHEA ATTACK

Kalule - weak champion at 154 Lenoard dominates

Hearns - green, weight drained Hearns dominates Leonard until he runs out of steam. Leonard suffers a detached retina, doesn't grant a rematch

Hagler - Hagler looks old and far from the fighter he once was Leonard agrees to fight him, but only over 12rounds with a huge ring. Many feel Hagler was robbed in a close hard to score contest.

Lalonde - not the best LHW and forced to drain himself to an unatural 168lbs. Leonard won but what it proved is questionable

Hearns 2 - Hearns won without doubt - Leonard said as much. It was called a draw

Duran 3 - shot to pieces Duran, boring fight

Norris - gets completely dominated by a very good 154lber but is a few years past his prime

[jamesmcdonnell]

Anyone who feels Hagler was robbed is the one wearing Rose tinted spectacles.

You're not really giving Leonard any credit there at all.

Hearns was absolutely destroying everyone up until he faced Leonard.

Whether or not Duran was perceived to be washed up is irrelevant, because he clearly wasn't given what he went on to do.

Benitez barely trained for any of his fights, yet nobody prior to Leonard was able to knock him out, so some credit is surely due there?

Leonard may have had one or two cautious fights, but they were fantastic brawls compared to what Mayweather has done post 135, aside from beating a clearly mentally washed up Gatti.

Leonard was well past his prime when he fought Norris, so what if he got beaten? He was old and inactive, and badly misjudged it in taking on a young hungry fighter like Norris.

The fact is, Leonard fought and beat the biggest names of his era, and pulled off some spectacular wins. Mayweather is much more a safety first fighter, or at least has been since leaving 130 behind. There are exceptions of course, but as good as his defensive skills are, he is pretty boring to watch, that's my personal opinion, he takes very little in the way of risks, and is far from explosive.

Hearns didn't just run out of steam, Leonard forced the fight and helped him along in tiring. He pulled off a dramatic win, whether hearns was weight drained or not. Manny Steward has come up with many exotic theories on what happened to Hearns that night, including the bizzarre leg rubbing incident, but I like to think the better man won.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

The fact is, Leonard fought and beat the biggest names of his era, and pulled off some spectacular wins. Mayweather is much more a safety first fighter, or at least has been since leaving 130 behind. There are exceptions of course, but as good as his defensive skills are, he is pretty boring to watch, that's my personal opinion, he takes very little in the way of risks, and is far from explosive..

My point was Leonard is a little overated. A great fighter no doubt, but he never dominated the other Fab 4 as his fans claim he did, he had all the cards stacked in his favour and he didn't fight many of the best 140, 147 and 154lb fighters of his era. The fab5 didn't engage with the McCallums, Pryors, the upcoming light middles and middles of the era and if they did they may have fallen from grace sooner. Who knows? I'm not saying they weren't great, just a degree of keeping them away from dangermen - the same thing Mayweather does at times today

The point is Mayweather was at his strongest at 130 - hes now in his 4th/5th division. Thats like Leonard fighting at SuperMiddleweight against Calazage or Light HEavyweight against Tarver. Do you think Leonard would be engaging quite as much in those divisions or been more cautious?

Leonard could never pull off the defensive manouvers Mayweather does but yes he was a more exciting combination thrower and a fantastic stick and move boxer. Mayweather certainly isn't Tysonesque to watch but I do look forward to his fights and watching his skills.

[bennie]

Ok lets take the rose tinted spetacles off for a moment and put Leonard under the microscope:

Benitez - an enigma with stamina problems due to him only training 2 weeks for fight, premature stoppage, boring fight

Duran 1 - Duran is seen as past his prime, old, a blown up lightweight and ready for the taking. Leonard gets comprehensively outfought and outboxed

Duran 2 - Duran suffers from stomach illness and looks terrible after supposedly partying none stop since the last fight. This wasn't the same Duran by any means. Leonard fights a very cautious boring match. DURAN SUPPOSEDLY QUITS DUE TO A DIARHEA ATTACK

Kalule - weak champion at 154 Lenoard dominates

Hearns - green, weight drained Hearns dominates Leonard until he runs out of steam. Leonard suffers a detached retina, doesn't grant a rematch

Hagler - Hagler looks old and far from the fighter he once was Leonard agrees to fight him, but only over 12rounds with a huge ring. Many feel Hagler was robbed in a close hard to score contest.

Lalonde - not the best LHW and forced to drain himself to an unatural 168lbs. Leonard won but what it proved is questionable

Hearns 2 - Hearns won without doubt - Leonard said as much. It was called a draw

Duran 3 - shot to pieces Duran, boring fight

Norris - gets completely dominated by a very good 154lber but is a few years past his prime

Leonard won Olympic gold. trouncing feared Cuban Andres Aldama in the final; Mayweather won bronze (cough, cough).

Benitez - gifted, with underrated power. He came back from Leonard to flatten Mo Hope with one of the greatest right hands of all time. Yes he was an enigma but, even on a bad night, Benitez was better than anyone Floyd Mayweather has fought. A million times better.

Duran 1 - 29 when he fought Leonard. And 71-1. No way was he seen as past his prime. In fact, moving up to welter made him all the more formidable. He was right at his peak when he fought Leonard.

Duran 2 - Duran hated runners and Leonard exposed that. Leonard's body shots were not to be sneezed at, either. Duran was said to have shit himself after consuming too much orange juice and too many of those body shots. Personally, I believe Duran knew he had seven more rounds of humiliation and pain ahead and threw it in. You think Mayweather could hurt Duran with body shots! He couldn't even hurt Castillo.

Kalule - NOT a weak champion. He was a superb fighter and his fight with Leonard is an underappreciated classic. Kalule was pure southpaw class.

Hearns - surely one of the greatest fights of all time. Leonard sucked it up from the gut in a way we've never seen Mayweather do. That's because Mayweather fights 'scared' in his superfights.

Hagler - Leonard defies belief in coming out of retirement to fight the way he did. No real comment needed.

Lalonde - sparks a bigger man. The eye of the tiger is still there.

Hearns 2 - great fight between two dinosaurs. Both men give it everything.

Duran 3 - Leonard (for once) boxes like Mayweather, taking no risks and winning a dull decision. But he shrugs of bad cuts towards the end in a way Mayweather would never be able to do without causing some sort of commotion (or his uncle).

Norris - Leonard is floored in the second and lambasted on the floor. Norris then dishes out a real beating but can't stop the gutsy old Sugar Man. No disgrace in hanging in there.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Hang on a second mate, you can't have it both ways.

Aren't you the one claiming that fighters of yesteryear would have been fighting in lower weight divisions?

Leonard still fought from Welterweight to Middleweight against elite level competition. That's three divisions against the best on offer. Despite what Bennie might say, nobody was calling into question whether or not Hagler was still the man at 160, and the perceived wisdom at the time was that Leonard was going to get absolutely mullered and maybe even put in hospital by Hagler, it was almost across the board seen as a big mistake by Leonard. Few gave him any chance of pulling it off, even his own friends and advisors. Sure, big ring, 12 rounds, well, more fool Hagler for agreeing those terms. Leonard clearly won that fight, and it was a bloody good fight as well. Leonard was never going to knock Marvin out, but he hit him hard and often in the fight.

Leonard also went on to pick up bullshit titles at 168 and 175, although there was a lot of jiggery pokery, but lets not forget he was retired for a long while, during which he wasn't doing any weight hopping, Mayweather has already had more fights than Leonard, who lost 3 years after Kevin Howard.

I'm sure, that with modern training methods and even more belts on offer, Leonard could have cherry picked his way to even more titles than he did. Hell, Leonard was the prototype for the modern belt hopping, but there was no WBO or IBF for the majority of his career, which made it that bit harder.

My point is that Mayweather's defensive genius is to the detriment of his offensive capabilities, Leonard had a better balance of the two. Leonard also wasn't afraid to get hit, as Bennie puts it.

Bennie, are you playing devils advocate with yourself here? One minute you are saying Floyd fights like he's scared to get hit, the next your lambasting Leonard.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Hang on a second mate, you can't have it both ways.

Aren't you the one claiming that fighters of yesteryear would have been fighting in lower weight divisions?

Leonard still fought from Welterweight to Middleweight against elite level competition. That's three divisions against the best on offer. Despite what Bennie might say, nobody was calling into question whether or not Hagler was still the man at 160, and the perceived wisdom at the time was that Leonard was going to get absolutely mullered and maybe even put in hospital by Hagler, it was almost across the board seen as a big mistake by Leonard. Few gave him any chance of pulling it off, even his own friends and advisors. Sure, big ring, 12 rounds, well, more fool Hagler for agreeing those terms. Leonard clearly won that fight, and it was a bloody good fight as well. Leonard was never going to knock Marvin out, but he hit him hard and often in the fight.

Leonard also went on to pick up bullshit titles at 168 and 175, although there was a lot of jiggery pokery, but lets not forget he was retired for a long while, during which he wasn't doing any weight hopping, Mayweather has already had more fights than Leonard, who lost 3 years after Kevin Howard.

I'm sure, that with modern training methods and even more belts on offer, Leonard could have cherry picked his way to even more titles than he did. Hell, Leonard was the prototype for the modern belt hopping, but there was no WBO or IBF for the majority of his career, which made it that bit harder.

My point is that Mayweather's defensive genius is to the detriment of his offensive capabilities, Leonard had a better balance of the two. Leonard also wasn't afraid to get hit, as Bennie puts it.

Bennie, are you playing devils advocate with yourself here? One minute you are saying Floyd fights like he's scared to get hit, the next your lambasting Leonard.

Modern weight draining would make no difference in the number of divisions a fighter could hop. Wasn't the Super-Middleweight titles made up specifically for Leonard?

For all the critiscism of Floyds cherry picking. HE will have been linear no1 in 3 divisions. And he will be fighting the man i nRicky Hatton he missed at 140lbs. Plus hes beaten in Delahoya the man probably the biggest treat to him 154lbs and below. Not to mention he tried to fight Hamed while being at 130lbs and tried to get fights with Mosley and Cotto on plenty of occasions. Mayweather won't be leaving the same doubts on his legacy as you can see on Leonards. Where is the Pryor, McCallum etc etc on Leonards leger?

What is more impressive about Leonard being dominant from 147-160 than there is about Mayweather dominating 130-140 (he did try to fight Hatton/Cotto at 140 and is now finally fighting Hatton)???

1 thing yo ucan't take from Mayweather is resume and him fighting the best out there - Genaro Hernadez, Corrales, Chavez, Manfredy, C Hernandez, Castillo, Gatti, Judah, Baldomir, Delahoya, Hatton. Whos missing from 130-140? Obviously Tyszu but he lost before Mayweather could get him.

Yes Leonard fought greater fighter but Mayweather did fight the elite but you can only fight the best fighters there are out there and in fairness to him he has done

Is Mayweather too defensive as you contend James? Time will tell but he should do far better against 140lb and 147lb fighters

[jamesmcdonnell]

Ok lets take the rose tinted spetacles off for a moment and put Leonard under the microscope:

Benitez - an enigma with stamina problems due to him only training 2 weeks for fight, premature stoppage, boring fight

Duran 1 - Duran is seen as past his prime, old, a blown up lightweight and ready for the taking. Leonard gets comprehensively outfought and outboxed

Duran 2 - Duran suffers from stomach illness and looks terrible after supposedly partying none stop since the last fight. This wasn't the same Duran by any means. Leonard fights a very cautious boring match. DURAN SUPPOSEDLY QUITS DUE TO A DIARHEA ATTACK

Kalule - weak champion at 154 Lenoard dominates

Hearns - green, weight drained Hearns dominates Leonard until he runs out of steam. Leonard suffers a detached retina, doesn't grant a rematch

Hagler - Hagler looks old and far from the fighter he once was Leonard agrees to fight him, but only over 12rounds with a huge ring. Many feel Hagler was robbed in a close hard to score contest.

Lalonde - not the best LHW and forced to drain himself to an unatural 168lbs. Leonard won but what it proved is questionable

Hearns 2 - Hearns won without doubt - Leonard said as much. It was called a draw

Duran 3 - shot to pieces Duran, boring fight

Norris - gets completely dominated by a very good 154lber but is a few years past his prime

Leonard won Olympic gold. trouncing feared Cuban Andres Aldama in the final; Mayweather won bronze (cough, cough).

Benitez - gifted, with underrated power. He came back from Leonard to flatten Mo Hope with one of the greatest right hands of all time. Yes he was an enigma but, even on a bad night, Benitez was better than anyone Floyd Mayweather has fought. A million times better.

Duran 1 - 29 when he fought Leonard. And 71-1. No way was he seen as past his prime. In fact, moving up to welter made him all the more formidable. He was right at his peak when he fought Leonard.

Duran 2 - Duran hated runners and Leonard exposed that. Leonard's body shots were not to be sneezed at, either. Duran was said to have shit himself after consuming too much orange juice and too many of those body shots. Personally, I believe Duran knew he had seven more rounds of humiliation and pain ahead and threw it in. You think Mayweather could hurt Duran with body shots! He couldn't even hurt Castillo.

Kalule - NOT a weak champion. He was a superb fighter and his fight with Leonard is an underappreciated classic. Kalule was pure southpaw class.

Hearns - surely one of the greatest fights of all time. Leonard sucked it up from the gut in a way we've never seen Mayweather do. That's because Mayweather fights 'scared' in his superfights.

Hagler - Leonard defies belief in coming out of retirement to fight the way he did. No real comment needed.

Lalonde - sparks a bigger man. The eye of the tiger is still there.

Hearns 2 - great fight between two dinosaurs. Both men give it everything.

Duran 3 - Leonard (for once) boxes like Mayweather, taking no risks and winning a dull decision. But he shrugs of bad cuts towards the end in a way Mayweather would never be able to do without causing some sort of commotion (or his uncle).

Norris - Leonard is floored in the second and lambasted on the floor. Norris then dishes out a real beating but can't stop the gutsy old Sugar Man. No disgrace in hanging in there.

Shit Sorry Bennie, it was PM who was lambasting Leonard not you! I thought it was a bit weird coming from you.

Well, thanks my wingmen, I think we've seen off gerry with a salvo of Ray Leonard realism!

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Ok lets take the rose tinted spetacles off for a moment and put Leonard under the microscope:

Benitez - an enigma with stamina problems due to him only training 2 weeks for fight, premature stoppage, boring fight

Duran 1 - Duran is seen as past his prime, old, a blown up lightweight and ready for the taking. Leonard gets comprehensively outfought and outboxed

Duran 2 - Duran suffers from stomach illness and looks terrible after supposedly partying none stop since the last fight. This wasn't the same Duran by any means. Leonard fights a very cautious boring match. DURAN SUPPOSEDLY QUITS DUE TO A DIARHEA ATTACK

Kalule - weak champion at 154 Lenoard dominates

Hearns - green, weight drained Hearns dominates Leonard until he runs out of steam. Leonard suffers a detached retina, doesn't grant a rematch

Hagler - Hagler looks old and far from the fighter he once was Leonard agrees to fight him, but only over 12rounds with a huge ring. Many feel Hagler was robbed in a close hard to score contest.

Lalonde - not the best LHW and forced to drain himself to an unatural 168lbs. Leonard won but what it proved is questionable

Hearns 2 - Hearns won without doubt - Leonard said as much. It was called a draw

Duran 3 - shot to pieces Duran, boring fight

Norris - gets completely dominated by a very good 154lber but is a few years past his prime

I am not a huge Leonard fan. He did play hard-ball in negotiations because he knew the other guy usually needed him and the way he brought Hagler out to a conference just to humiliate him showed he has no class but he buries Mayweather.

Hearns was as experienced as Ray when they fought. Both knew their way around.

In that fight Ray had it tough and switched his tactics completely to register a win. Sure Hearns was faded at the weight but Ray drew that out of him. I say this believing Hearns is a better fighter than Ray.

Ray pulled-off better defensive moves, his footwork, although too much at times, was a solid line of defence and also backed-off guys when they cornered him with more effect than Floyd.

You make it sound like Duran was finished during that first fight, yes he was older and yes he was at a higher weight but he fought very well there and the weight, for that fight at least, liberated him.

Duran beat Ray on the night because he was better able to implement his strategy. Ray went away and over-turned it on Duran and I don't care how bad Roberto's cramps were that counts as a viable win, though Ray went too far into movement that night.

I had Hagler beating Ray yet in Hagler he took one hell of a fighter and, occasionally, fought on good terms. Again he moved too much that night.

Ray could also destroy guys, as mentioned with Green.

Both Leonard and Floyd are guilty of smoke and mirrors in terms of moving up in weight but would Ray have treated Baldomir at welterweight like nitroglycerine. Would he fookers like.

Forrest did a better job on Baldomir than Floyd did.

Leonard, like Floyd, may be a bit of a nasty man but he certainly could fight and you are going too far-out to deny him his rightful plaudits.

To be honest I was playing devils advocate with my critique of Leonard he was a great fighter but he clearly had weaknesses in his game and in his CV despite beating a few of the best fighters to grace the ring.

Yes I too think Duran was near his peak - I think SRLs management will have thought otherwise though. In the rematch he simply wasn't the same fighter

I think HEarns scoring so many KOs hurt him and took away any potential experience of long term fights. A GREAT LINE WAS 'A FIGHTERS BIGGEST WEAKNESS IS HIS KO PUNCH"- I THINK IT WAS FROM CUS DE AMATO - How prophetic for his protege in Tyson.

I missed Forrest-Baldomir but in fairness Floyd won every round despite taking his foot off the peddle. Baldomir also will have outweighed him by a good 14lbs or so. Also if Baldo isn't flinching from Forrest haymakers no wonder Mayweather couldn't make an impact on him

[Albert]

PBF is truly exceptional in every department, he is one of the sportsmen who comes along every now and again to rule his particular sport. As long as he is not a stupid twat like RJJ then he will rule from Welterweight to proabably Middleweight for as long as he wants to.

Ricky Hatton is to be applauded for taking this fight, it is one I think he will lose but as long as he does not get a one sided beating then he will be able to go back to ruling the Light Welterweight division.

Yet again although its a much needed fight for British Boxing, it is one in which we are all getting overly excited about, thats because whatever way you look at this fight, Ricky Hatton is a massive underdog. I am desperate to see him win like any other Brit, but I am also a realist in seeing Hatton and Mayweather a bit of a one sided fight.

We can discuss and discuss all we want about the whys and wherefors of this fight and eventually I suppose we will convince ourselves Ricky will win.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Hang on a second mate, you can't have it both ways.

Aren't you the one claiming that fighters of yesteryear would have been fighting in lower weight divisions?

Leonard still fought from Welterweight to Middleweight against elite level competition. That's three divisions against the best on offer. Despite what Bennie might say, nobody was calling into question whether or not Hagler was still the man at 160, and the perceived wisdom at the time was that Leonard was going to get absolutely mullered and maybe even put in hospital by Hagler, it was almost across the board seen as a big mistake by Leonard. Few gave him any chance of pulling it off, even his own friends and advisors. Sure, big ring, 12 rounds, well, more fool Hagler for agreeing those terms. Leonard clearly won that fight, and it was a bloody good fight as well. Leonard was never going to knock Marvin out, but he hit him hard and often in the fight.

Leonard also went on to pick up bullshit titles at 168 and 175, although there was a lot of jiggery pokery, but lets not forget he was retired for a long while, during which he wasn't doing any weight hopping, Mayweather has already had more fights than Leonard, who lost 3 years after Kevin Howard.

I'm sure, that with modern training methods and even more belts on offer, Leonard could have cherry picked his way to even more titles than he did. Hell, Leonard was the prototype for the modern belt hopping, but there was no WBO or IBF for the majority of his career, which made it that bit harder.

My point is that Mayweather's defensive genius is to the detriment of his offensive capabilities, Leonard had a better balance of the two. Leonard also wasn't afraid to get hit, as Bennie puts it.

Bennie, are you playing devils advocate with yourself here? One minute you are saying Floyd fights like he's scared to get hit, the next your lambasting Leonard.

Modern weight draining would make no difference in the number of divisions a fighter could hop. Wasn't the Super-Middleweight titles made up specifically for Leonard?

For all the critiscism of Floyds cherry picking. HE will have been linear no1 in 3 divisions. And he will be fighting the man i nRicky Hatton he missed at 140lbs. Plus hes beaten in Delahoya the man probably the biggest treat to him 154lbs and below. Not to mention he tried to fight Hamed while being at 130lbs and tried to get fights with Mosley and Cotto on plenty of occasions. Mayweather won't be leaving the same doubts on his legacy as you can see on Leonards. Where is the Pryor, McCallum etc etc on Leonards leger?

What is more impressive about Leonard being dominant from 147-160 than there is about Mayweather dominating 130-140 (he did try to fight Hatton/Cotto at 140 and is now finally fighting Hatton)???

1 thing yo ucan't take from Mayweather is resume and him fighting the best out there - Genaro Hernadez, Corrales, Chavez, Manfredy, C Hernandez, Castillo, Gatti, Judah, Baldomir, Delahoya, Hatton. Whos missing from 130-140? Obviously Tyszu but he lost before Mayweather could get him.

Yes Leonard fought greater fighter but Mayweather did fight the elite but you can only fight the best fighters there are out there and in fairness to him he has done

Is Mayweather too defensive as you contend James? Time will tell but he should do far better against 140lb and 147lb fighters

So Leonard fights Benitez, Hearns, Duran and Hagler, and you try and bring up McCallum and Pryor? When precisely was Leonard ducking Pryor then? If you are going to suggest that, then why didn't Mayweather move up and fight Tszyu before Ricky, or take on Mosley earlier in his career? McCallum is one of my all time favourites, but he was just in the 'who needs him club' a low profile fighter with no following and nothing to bring to the table, sad but true. Nobody can face EVERYONE from their era, it's just not possible. The fact is Leonard fought and beat men as good or better than those names.

Gatti Judah Baldomir, you are trumping them up!!! Oh how ridiculous, those guys wouldn't have got a sniff of a title in Leonard's era, Leonard's contenders were as good as those three. Christ, Dave boy green would have probably beaten Baldomir! Baldomir is just a big lump who was in the right place at the right time. I thought he had a chance against Mayweather because of his size at the time, but the gulf in class was just vast. Judah is a B level fighter and a hype job, nothing more.

As for Mayweather, he's got to actually beat Hatton first, before he becomes the man at 140, he's not been the man at anything above 135, where he was indeed dominant. Oscar is a part time fighter, who never proved himself the best at 154 or arguably at anything above 135. After all Mosley beat him at 147, and whilst I thought he beat Trinidad, the result is still there.

With modern training techniques, Leonard could have started his career lower in weight, so of course it means he could have won more titles. If he had started his career at lightweight, I'm pretty sure he could still have done what he did against Hagler, after all, it would just be a matter of using modern techniques to drop the extra weight and put it back on again. It seems you don't understand the implications of what you yourself suggested!

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

I'm sorry PN but Oscar was not lineal at 154. He won a title from a guy who picked it up, the WBC being vacant, against Piccirillo.

Oscar is not the man at 154 nor, therefore, is Floyd.

I was saying Mayweather was lineal at 130, 135 and 147, 135 maybe a slight question mark if it was lineal but for all intents and purposes Castillo was the best for a couple or years before and a couple of years after Mayweather beat him.

Of course if you think Delahoya was robbed against Mosley, you argue he was rightfully still lineal at 154 I think Delahoya was the best at 154, better than Spinks who lost to Judah, better than Dzinderuk who for all his talent is unproven and better than Simms who would lose next time out