List Your Top 10 Most Overrated Heavyweights Of All Time

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 08 Aug 2007, 11:22

Since this forum is dominated by discussion of boxings most overrated weight class, I thought I'd ask just who is the most overrated of the bunch.

In order to deflect some of the rage that will no doubt be directed my way, I'm holding off on my top 10 till I get back from the healthclub and a couple other places.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Aug 2007, 11:35

I know I'll go on the defensive by some people's posts but I might as well go on the offensive first

In no particular order:

Luis Angel Firpo

Mike Tyson

Razor Ruddock

David Tua

Pinklon Thomas

I can't really think of more since the wide majority of highly rated fighters in the HW division are usually the proven greats. Here are a few fighters who I USED to think were over-rated but with more studying and research have to come believe they were equal to their credits or even under-rated:

Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, Max Baer, Jess Williard

theone · Post by **theone** » 08 Aug 2007, 13:52

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Harry Wills
4. Jersey Joe Walcott
5. Jack Johnson
6. Max Baer
7. Sam Langford (only as a heavyweight)
8. Luis Angel Firpo
9. James Jefferies
10. Jess Willard

travrosty · Post by **travrosty** » 08 Aug 2007, 14:03

Firpo wasn't overrated, he was darn good. He put Dempsey through the ropes, and would have been the champion if not for some illegal help.

Muhammad Ali was overrated. People blindly say he was the greatest just because they hear it over and over again. Jean-Pierre Coopman was a great challenger, don't you think? He drank champagne between rounds. Don't you think Ali should have fought more quality opponents than the "Lion of Flanders"? Oh yeah, I forgot, he fought Richard Dunn.

Ali was one of the greats, but overrated when compared to the pedestal most people put him on.

Travis Roste

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 08 Aug 2007, 14:23

..rocky marciano...(surprise!!!)...

:P

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 08 Aug 2007, 15:44

1.Rocky Marciano. If only LaStarza had gotten that SD instead, his stock wouldn't be half of what it is today.

2.Sonny Liston. He could have been the greatest ever.............. in a world where the previous best was Zora Folley or Cleveland Williams.

3. Jersey Joe Walcott. I guess it's the Marciano factor.

4. Jack Johnson. Had some questionable title defenses while avoiding Langford, Jeanette and McVey.

5.George Godfrey. For undeservedly being in the IBHOF

6. Jess Willard. Same goes for him.

7. Ingemar Johansson. That goes double for Ingo.

8. Greg Page. Never understood how this sluggish tub of lard could be compared with Ali.

9. Jim Braddock. Could beat some good fighters or he could could lose to some not so good ones.

10. Floyd Patterson. Never came close to beating a big name opponent at HW. Ingo doesn't count.

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 08 Aug 2007, 15:53

Jaclem wrote:..rocky marciano...(surprise!!!)...

:P

My God, you think Marciano is over-rated, why? Why? I don't understand! How can you think that? Who's surprise? I don't get it!

Thanks for the insight. Your posts are over-rated. You Bum!

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 08 Aug 2007, 15:58

Seamus wrote:If only

If only, the whole history of boxing revolves around if only's, you twat!

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Aug 2007, 17:00

travrosty wrote:Firpo wasn't overrated, he was darn good. He put Dempsey through the ropes, and would have been the champion if not for some illegal help.

Muhammad Ali was overrated. People blindly say he was the greatest just because they hear it over and over again. Jean-Pierre Coopman was a great challenger, don't you think? He drank champagne between rounds. Don't you think Ali should have fought more quality opponents than the "Lion of Flanders"? Oh yeah, I forgot, he fought Richard Dunn.

Ali was one of the greats, but overrated when compared to the pedestal most people put him on.

Travis Roste

Are you granberry?

One thing that is IMPOSSIBLE to critique is Ali's opponent list . . .definetely the best resume of opponents of all the HW champions.

Dunn and Coopman . . how about Liston twice, Terrell, Chuvalo twice, Foreman, Norton 3 times, Frazier 3 times, Lyle, Quarry twice, Holmes, Young, and Shavers when he was WAY past his best . . .

To bring up Coopman is just stupid.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Aug 2007, 17:04

Seamus wrote:1.Rocky Marciano. If only LaStarza had gotten that SD instead, his stock wouldn't be half of what it is today.

2.Sonny Liston. He could have been the greatest ever.............. in a world where the previous best was Zora Folley or Cleveland Williams.

3. Jersey Joe Walcott. I guess it's the Marciano factor.

4. Jack Johnson. Had some questionable title defenses while avoiding Langford, Jeanette and McVey.

5.George Godfrey. For undeservedly being in the IBHOF

6. Jess Willard. Same goes for him.

7. Ingemar Johansson. That goes double for Ingo.

8. Greg Page. Never understood how this sluggish tub of lard could be compared with Ali.

9. Jim Braddock. Could beat some good fighters or he could could lose to some not so good ones.

10. Floyd Patterson. Never came close to beating a big name opponent at HW. Ingo doesn't count.

I don't think Braddock is over-rated . . his story is popular b/c it's a classic underdog, Depression-era tale of overcoming that is so popular in the United States. But no-one says he's one of the great HW champions.

How did Johnson avoid Mcvey when he beat him numerous times? (and beat him BADLY while at it)

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 08 Aug 2007, 17:12

I remember Teddy Atlas once said (of Marciano) that he was both the most over-rated and under-rated HW champion; over-rated due to the 49-0 and under-rated because people dismiss his victories with the "too old" factor.

Myself, I think the most over-rated HW champion was...

Muhammad Ali [surprise]. Why? WHile I do believe in his prime he was the fastest, and he proved to either be the toughest HW of all time or close to it, he wasn't quite the fighting wonder I think he has been hyped to be. Yes, he won in remarkable fashion, but he wasn't perfect and didnt have even some of the more basic tools. But his ability to improvise to any given situation, alot of the times, made up for those losses.

But then again, I would say a close runner up, if not a tie, to Ali is the formerly known "baddest man on the planet" Mike Tyson. Tyson, at his best, did have all but a perfect balance between power, defense and speed, but honestly, had anyone else defeated the Tubbs, Berbicks, Smiths, Thomas', Briggs', Bruno's of the world...nobody would have cared. It was just the way he won, that made him so 'great'.

Of more modern day 'champions' I would say the Klitschko's are the most over-rated HW's I have seen in the last 10-15 years.

Out of the contenders...

I believe possibly the most over-rated HW contender I ever seen was Ken Norton, followed by the likes of Earnie Shavers and Ron Lyle.

MEISINGER · Post by **MEISINGER** » 08 Aug 2007, 19:59

1.mike tyson
2.rocky marciano
3.floyd patterson
4.ken norton
5.vitali klitschko
6.wlad klitschko
7.jersey joe walcott
8.gene tunney
9.jack dempsey
10.sonny liston

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 08 Aug 2007, 23:04

In no particular order:

Tyson - although not as overrated as he used to be, my All-Time No12.
Johnson - the most overrated IMO. I rate him All-Time No8.
Dempsey - my all-time No9, most have him higher.
Liston - my all-time No10, most have him higher.
Langford - overrated as a heavyweight.
Jeffries - he just makes my top 15 from memory.
Marciano - mostly not overrated, but too highly esteemed by a few. my all-time No5.
Lewis - same as above, I rate him No7
Louis - only overrated by a few who place him clearly ahead of Ali, I rate him No2.
Ali - deserves most of his plaudits, but fact is he was less than brilliant against small elusive fighters, and very open to the left hook. My No1.

As you might be able to tell, I am far more interested in actual career accomplishments, rather than how good a fighter looked in the ring when making my assessments.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 09 Aug 2007, 01:56

travrosty wrote: Muhammad Ali was overrated. People blindly say he was the greatest just because they hear it over and over again.

I could just as well say that for Louis and Marciano. Talking about Coopman and Dunn is ridiculous, those were tune up fights (as if Louis never had any of those). The previous year he fought Lyle and Frazier, that year he fought Norton and Young, the next year he fought Shavers. Not many Heavyweight champions had that kind of schedule, and Ali was shot or at best borderline shot in those years. Criticizing Ali for how he fought is also stupid. James Toney is a much more technically skilled fighter than Roy Jones, for example... didn't help him much.

1) Tyson
2) Marciano
3) Vitali... Larry Merchant had an interesting quote, something along the lines of how its not good to put much stock in a fighter who is known for his losses...
4) Sharkey
5) Baer
6) Ibeabuchi
7) Shavers... he is sometimes called "the best fighter never to win the Heavyweight title", when he lost to Quarry and Lyle and got a draw with Young
8) Wlad
9) Dempsey
10) Louis... I have him at #2 in my top 10 Heavyweight list, but a little too much hype/nostalgia around him... he is not the greatest Heavyweight of all time..

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 09 Aug 2007, 02:18

..rocketboy....my judgement of marciano is based on my vast experience of having seen at least 2 dozen prize fights over the years.

the surprise is too good to give away, though there are one or two regulars here who might catch on.

as for my being a bum...just because i lie around a lot on the couch in the living room and drink orange kool-aid for most of the day doesn't make me a bum. while i do that i am making big plans to do something spectacular once i think of what it will be.

back to the heavyweights....i respect your opinion because you have no doubt followed the acheivements of british heavywqeghts over the years and have seen a lot of all-time greats. personally, i always thought phainting phil scott was one of the most UNDERRATED in this weight class....i have him no.2, right after brian london.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 09 Aug 2007, 02:28

There's just a lot of things about him that rub me the wrong way. I feel too much is made about the Dempsey KO, there's no rule that you can't hit your opponent as he's talking to the ref... it happens all the time. And though I haven't seen the entire 15 rounds of the fight, my understanding is that the vast majority of people felt that Schmeling should have won their rematch; and that's Sharkey's biggest win. Then he got KO'd, legitimately or not, by Carnera. Louis ran him over. He did have a few good wins, but I just see him as a borderline great, not as a true great, and I wouldn't rank him over Schmeling but it seems that many do.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 09 Aug 2007, 02:36

Yeah, but Sharkey wasn't the cleanest fighter either from my understanding. And I would think a younger Dempsey would have beaten him more definitively.

kovit · Post by **kovit** » 09 Aug 2007, 02:37

Lennox Lewis - He's really overated by George Foreman who thinks he's the greatest heavyweight champion of all-time than Ali, Louis, Holyfield, Holmes, etc even Foreman himself makes me want to laugh and puke about it. Foreman is acting like a kissing ass boy for Lewis. Lewis is rated too highly over Tyson and Holyfield because he'll never be better than Tyson and Holyfield, but Riddick Bowe I think Lewis would beat Bowe. Nothing to take away from Lewis, I would rate Tyson and Holyfield above Lewis despite the fact Lewis beat the aging Holyfield and Tyson in 1999 and 2002 perpectively.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 09 Aug 2007, 09:44

kovit wrote:Lennox Lewis - He's really overated by George Foreman who thinks he's the greatest heavyweight champion of all-time than Ali, Louis, Holyfield, Holmes, etc even Foreman himself makes me want to laugh and puke about it. Foreman is acting like a kissing ass boy for Lewis. Lewis is rated too highly over Tyson and Holyfield because he'll never be better than Tyson and Holyfield, but Riddick Bowe I think Lewis would beat Bowe. Nothing to take away from Lewis, I would rate Tyson and Holyfield above Lewis despite the fact Lewis beat the aging Holyfield and Tyson in 1999 and 2002 perpectively.

Foreman's just blowing smoke . . .he doesn't really believe that.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 09 Aug 2007, 10:35

Decagon wrote:My "most overrated," plus how I rank them:

1. Max Baer - Power's always overrated. Baer had a few good wins, but a number of bad losses. #23
2. Mike Tyson - There are still a lot of people out there who think Tyson's one of the 5 best heavyweights of all time, and one of the 15 best fighters ever, pound-for-pound. #12
3. Gene Tunney - Not anymore, but until the 1980s, Tunney was horribly overrated, and for beating whom? An old Dempsey? He barely broke even with 165-pound Harry Greb! #13
4. Jim Corbett - I simply don't get it. I read fight report after fight report, and he simply didn't do anything spectacular. He looks like shit on film. #35
5. George Foreman - I usually ignore his second career when ranking him because quite frankly, it wasn't that good. Beating Michael Moorer isn't a great accomplishment - especially if it's between losses to Tommy Morrison and Axel Schults. Hasim Rachman probably could've done it, prime-vs-prime. It's not like he was Bernard Hopkins, beating one of the 20 greatest middleweights of all time in Winky Wright. #7
6. Ike Ibeabuchi - Every day, somewhere on the internet, someone finds him on Boxrec and starts a topic on a boxing forum about him. #61
7. Wladimir Klitschko - No explanation needed. #63
8. Vitali Klitschko - No explanation needed. #64
9. Harry Wills and the black foursome - I hate people who rank Wills, Jeanette and McVey too highly. I have Wills at #29, Jeanette at #24 and McVey at #34. I have Langford at #18 and Godfrey at #33. I laugh at people who rank any of them above Schmeling.
10. Roy Jones - He did win a title, and that alone merits a top-150 ranking. I have him at #83, which is very generous.

Why is Winky Wright a top 20 MW? For beating Soliman, drawing with Taylor and losing to BHop?
Top 10 LMW, yes, top 30 MW maybe?maybe generous?

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 09 Aug 2007, 10:41

Jaclem wrote:..rocketboy....my judgement of marciano is based on my vast experience of having seen at least 2 dozen prize fights over the years.

the surprise is too good to give away, though there are one or two regulars here who might catch on.

as for my being a bum...just because i lie around a lot on the couch in the living room and drink orange kool-aid for most of the day doesn't make me a bum. while i do that i am making big plans to do something spectacular once i think of what it will be.

back to the heavyweights....i respect your opinion because you have no doubt followed the acheivements of british heavywqeghts over the years and have seen a lot of all-time greats. personally, i always thought phainting phil scott was one of the most UNDERRATED in this weight class....i have him no.2, right after brian london.

Your response has quite amuzed me, I like it. I had the impression that you were simply like every other fool that immediately condemns Marciano to the dregs of the Heavyweight barrell. But fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.

Your answer to being a bum worries me, is my life being filmed and recorded over the internet, am I on a web cam and you are watching...spooky.

Speaking of British heavyweights and Marciano, what's your take on Don Cockell?

The Durable Dane · Post by **The Durable Dane** » 09 Aug 2007, 13:48

[quote="jezzamundo"]Johnson - the most overrated IMO. I rate him All-Time No8.
quote]
I agree. He is way overrated. I rate him No10 i my All Time list.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 09 Aug 2007, 16:27

1. Rocky Marciano, great fighter but still very overrated by many
2. Vlad Klitschko, talented but china chin, would get his clock cleaned by anyone really good
3. Mike Tyson, same reasons as Rocky
5. Gene Tunney, too highly rated by the old timers as a heavy
6. James J Jeffries, this one pains me cos I really like him, but some of the old time lists rate him very very high.........bullshit, hes in the top 15 but not top 10
7. Frank Bruno, revered in Britain but wasnt very good really
8. James J Corbett, good for his time but cant see what all the fuss about him his, especially when rating him at heavyweight
9. Ike Ibeabuchi, might have gone on to be great but many idiots on the current forum think he would have torn Lennox a new one, enough to get him onto an overrated list
10. Joe Walcott, some of you said hed have beaten Foreman

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 09 Aug 2007, 20:55

I obviously don't agree with Foreman that Lewis is the greatest Heavyweight of all time- I don't think George knows what he's talking about half the time- but I do rank Lewis ahead of Tyson and Holyfield, and I do think he could have beaten them in their primes. As for Johnson, there's been sort of this revisionist thing in the last couple of years that Johnson avoided other black fighters when he was champion. Well, yeah, but he beat all of them before he was champion, that's how he got the shot at Burns, because he was the best black Heavyweight in the world. Then he beat Burns, who had like 11 title defenses. He may have milked the title after that, but he beat most of of his best opponents prior to becoming champion, sort of like Liston. Maybe he's overrated as a Heavyweight champion, but not as a Heavyweight.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 09 Aug 2007, 22:27

Jack Johnson's wins over Langford, Jeanette and McVea need to be put in some serious perspective. Johnson beat a Middleweight version of Langford, and NEVER the solidly built heavyweight Langford became. He beat Jeanette fairly early in the latter's career NOT the guy who reeled off 24 straight wins while Johnson was champion, and Sam McVea went on to be a much better fighter as well during Johnson's reign. In short had Jack Johnson been white, he would have been called a fraud by many for avoiding the 3 best contenders available.