Does anyone know Why?

[Grant]

Why didn't George Foreman get a rematch with Ali.
I always thought that george was too big and strong for Ali (although not the smartest knife in the draw, if u know what I mean)
Has he ever explained why he never went after Ali again?

[BERNARD BRIGGS.]

according to George he went into deep depression and by the time he was out of it ali was no more a worthy opponent

[I Feel Fine]

I always thought that george was too big and strong for Ali (although not the smartest knife in the draw, if u know what I mean)

Foreman and Ali were the same size, and Foreman was clearly not the physically stronger fighter in their fight. There's a difference between strength and punching power; Holyfield was clearly stronger than Tyson, for example, though Mike is obviously the harder puncher.

Ali would have won a rematch, though it probably would have been tougher.

As for why there was no rematch, George took a whole year off, and by the time he was in position for another fight he lost to Young and retired. Ali said he was willing to give George a rematch.

[HomicideHenry]

I would have personally loved to have seen a rematch between Ali and Foreman. It's pretty clear the Ali of 1976 and beyond was at his most vulnerable, but then again, George was at his emotional worse, still haunted over his loss to Ali and was hell bent on trying to "prove" the loss was a fluke.

In 1975, he did the notorious "Toronto Five" exhibition, knocking out Alonzo Johnson, Boone Kirkman, Charlie Polite, Jerry Judge and Dino Denis out in a combined 12 rounds; it was nothing more, really, than a stunt, though a very impressive one at that.

Honestly, it didnt change most peoples minds, though, of what happened in Zaire was a fluke. So in 1976, George annihilated Scott LeDoux, Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier, Dino Denis in a combined 17 rounds...then he fought Jimmy Young in 1977 and lost a 12 round decision by 118-111, 115-114, 116-112.

If Foreman was tore up in losing to Ali, he was completely out of it after Young, having a religous experience in the dressing room afterwards and went into a self imposed exile...and wouldnt return until 1987.

In my mind Foreman should have gotten the shot after beating on the likes of Lyle and Frazier, whom Ali defeated in 1975 and in early 1976, because he was also the man Ali won it from. Hell, even Jack Dempsey got a shot at Tunney after beating Sharkey, even Ali got a shot at Frazier after fighting Quarry and Bonavena, and even got an immediate rematch with Leon Spinks in 1978.

Whether Foreman could have won it or not is speculative...but I think if George was to win, he'd have to forget about going for any knockouts until the "championship" rounds. He'd have to condition himself to box 10-12 rounds against Ali, force Ali to fight at range rather than on the ropes like Lyle tried to do, and then go for the viscous shots in the last three rounds; Ali simply couldnt "dance" 15 rounds anymore, and would have eventually gotten fatigued and exhausted to where Foreman would have gotten the upper hand.

[I Feel Fine]

Foreman trying to out last Ali and beat him in the championship rounds sounds like very wishful thinking. I would say the championship rounds are the rounds where Ali would kill Foreman.

If the fight is in 75 Ali wins, if the fight is in 76 after Manila then Foreman probably wins. But I don't see any wrong doing in what Ali did, George took a whole year off and then got upset. Ali said he would give George a rematch... it just never happened.

[Jaclem]

..homicide guy's post on this is so well written and his opinions so well justified that as far as i'm concerned there's nothing for anyone to add.

[Ambling Alp]

If you actually follow the timeline of when things happened, it makes sense that Foreman didn't get a rematch.

The Ali-Foreman fight was in October of 1974. Foreman didn't fight again until 1976. By this time, there were several other fighters that were more deserving of a title shot.
Foreman won some fights in 1976 and was getting close to establishing himself as the top challenger.
Sure, Ali could have given Foreman a title shot in 1976, but he certainly wasn't obliged to do so.

In March of 1977, Foreman lost to Young. Had he won, he probably would have been close to a title shot. He then retired for 10 years.

[Brich1930b]

I READ WHERE FOREMAN SAID HE WAS NEVER PAID FOR THE FIGHT WITH ALI. FOR THAT REASON HE WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ALI TEAM. I READ WHERE GEORGE HIMSELF SAID THAT.

[Ambling Alp]

Doesn't sound like a credible story. The "Ali Team" wouldn't be responsible for paying Foreman and I'm pretty sure Foreman would know that. It's pretty doubtful that Foreman didn't get paid anyway.

[HomicideHenry]

Code: Select all

The Ali-Foreman fight was in October of 1974. Foreman didn't fight again until 1976. By this time, there were several other fighters that were more deserving of a title shot. 

Yeah...and Chuck Wepner was oh so deserving

As far as Feel's position on the "Foreman beating Ali in the championship rounds sounds more like wishful thinking" is concerned, like I said before, Ali couldn't dance 15 rounds anymore, he was apparently more flat footed than ever and depended on the 'rope-a-dope' more often. If Foreman could go the distance with Peralta years before, it's not out of the relm of possibility that George couldn't focus on being a boxer for 10-12 rounds and then go for the 'kill' in the last 3 or 5 rounds.

Mind you, Ali-Lyle was practically an even fight by the 11th round when it was prematurely stopped [least in my mind it was premature stoppage], and Lyle was following the same tactic that I just implied Foreman should have done...force Ali to fight in the center of the ring, rather than off the ropes.

I mean, seriously, had Ali not did the rope a dope on Foreman in Zaire, I dont think Ali would have survived...Norton, Frazier, Roman all came to Foreman and were destroyed...in Zaire, Foreman came to Ali, and that was his undoing...I dont think Ali could dance with Foreman and survive.

Look at the first round, and how Ali was dancing around, everything seemed ok and then...BOOOM!...Foreman lands one of the hardest shots he ever thrown directly on Ali's head/neck and from that time on Ali stays on the ropes until later in the 8th round when he went for the KO when he knew Foreman had nothing left.

It was all about survival. Ali could only survive Foreman if he does the rope a dope 10 times out of 10...anything else is career suicide.

[Ambling Alp]

There is nothing wrong with the champion making a couple of easy defenses in a year in addition to fighting the best.

In 1975, Ali fought Wepner, as well as putting the title on the line against Lyle, Bugner, and Frazier.

In 1976, Ali had two easy ones, (Dunn and Coopman) and two top challengers (Norton and Young)

Ali is the the best example of a fighting heavyweight champion.
Why do you insist on constatntly bringing up his worst opponents?

[HomicideHenry]

I aint saying a champion can't have a few easy ones, its a gimme, you are eventually bound to fight someone somewhere along the way who really isn't any good. Sure in 1975 he fought Lyle, Frazier, Bugner as well as Wepner...but then again Ali, before fighting Wepner, was bragging how he would defend the title against Foreman or Frazier, but it was a con, he went straight after the biggest under-dog out there.

Now I dont mind someone fighting easy fights, but dont tell people you're going to fight Foreman, Frazier, in your very next fight and not deliver and give them a crappy ass substitute.

But no the Wepner fight didn't hurt Ali none, considering he made up for the farce later that year against Lyle and Bugner and Frazier...but why Wepner? Wepner can talk all he wants today how he 'beat' Henry Clark for title contention and already had a 'deal' to fight the winner of Ali-Foreman...but ffs, what the hell was the point? He stood no chance, there was no chance.

[I Feel Fine]

Code: Select all

The Ali-Foreman fight was in October of 1974. Foreman didn't fight again until 1976. By this time, there were several other fighters that were more deserving of a title shot. 

Yeah...and Chuck Wepner was oh so deserving

As far as Feel's position on the "Foreman beating Ali in the championship rounds sounds more like wishful thinking" is concerned, like I said before, Ali couldn't dance 15 rounds anymore, he was apparently more flat footed than ever and depended on the 'rope-a-dope' more often. If Foreman could go the distance with Peralta years before, it's not out of the relm of possibility that George couldn't focus on being a boxer for 10-12 rounds and then go for the 'kill' in the last 3 or 5 rounds.

Mind you, Ali-Lyle was practically an even fight by the 11th round when it was prematurely stopped [least in my mind it was premature stoppage], and Lyle was following the same tactic that I just implied Foreman should have done...force Ali to fight in the center of the ring, rather than off the ropes.

I mean, seriously, had Ali not did the rope a dope on Foreman in Zaire, I dont think Ali would have survived...Norton, Frazier, Roman all came to Foreman and were destroyed...in Zaire, Foreman came to Ali, and that was his undoing...I dont think Ali could dance with Foreman and survive.

Look at the first round, and how Ali was dancing around, everything seemed ok and then...BOOOM!...Foreman lands one of the hardest shots he ever thrown directly on Ali's head/neck and from that time on Ali stays on the ropes until later in the 8th round when he went for the KO when he knew Foreman had nothing left.

It was all about survival. Ali could only survive Foreman if he does the rope a dope 10 times out of 10...anything else is career suicide.

I think you've crossed the line into Ali hater in this post.

Bringing up Wepner is... stupid. Foreman took that whole year off. Sort of hard to set up a rematch with a guy who spends the whole year hiding in his closet, only coming out to do his circus act with the five dead men. And, as alp just said, Ali fought Joe Frazier and Ron Lyle that year... Marciano didn't have too many years like that. Questioning the Lyle stoppage sinks to a granberry level... no one would even bat an eyebrow at that kind of stoppage if the fight took place today. Ali landed something like 25 unanswered punches, Lyle's head snapped back three or four times in a 10 second span... jeez.

Your theories about a rematch do not reflect anything in reality. Foreman changed nothing in his style after the Ali fight. Nothing. His style remained the same; keep throwing punches until your opponent falls down. Foreman would not be a different kind of fighter until he came back in the 80's. So where are these adjustments that 70's Foreman would make in a rematch? There are none, they don't exist, Foreman in 76 had the same mentality as Foreman from 69-74.

Foreman, even in the Ali haters wettest dream, could never out last Ali in terms of stamina. Peralta? I'm not sure Ali would even break a sweat against Peralta in a 15 round fight. Ali with his tying up George, pulling his head down, with his ability to make George miss and over exert himself, with his ability to actually consistently land punches and stun George was able to wear George down a bit more than the old, former Light Heavyweight in Peralta. I would say one of Ali's greatest strength's was his ability to out last his opponents in terms of stamina, and Ali was normally at his best in the championship rounds.

And who said anything about Ali dancing for 15 rounds in a rematch? He didn't dance for 15 in the first fight. He used movement, but not for the whole fight. And there's no basis for saying Ali's legs were gone in those years. Frazier pounded Ali's body for 12 rounds and Ali was still dancing in the later rounds of their fight. Ali never stopped moving against Evangelista. Hell, he even showed a lot of movement in the Spinks rematch. And his legs are not the only thing that would help him in a Foreman rematch, his dancing wouldn't even be his primary weapon against Foreman.

Dancing or not, George is not going to out last Ali in terms of stamina.

Normally when people analyze Zaire, and specifically a potential rematch- and they take the side of Foreman- they start to talk about Foreman in an idealized sort of way. They start to make up a Foreman who would have been smarter than Ali, who would have had better stamina than Ali, who wouldn't have fallen into Ali's traps, who would have even boxed better than Ali. But this Foreman did not exist, and Foreman would not show real craftiness until his 80's and 90's incarnation. So, lets get real here, you can't create the perfect Foreman with the body of 70's George and the brains of 90's George to create the perfect Ali killer... Foreman is never going to have better stamina than Ali, he at 25-26-27 years old is not going to be smarter than Ali... and if your only basis for saying that George would win a rematch is on these fictional notions, then I think its safe to say Ali, at least in 75, would have beaten George again in a rematch...

I mean, if we're going to start making things up, I could just as well say that Ali will KO George in the first round with a perfect right hand to the jaw like he did Liston in their rematch...

[HomicideHenry]

I know Foreman never changed his style after Ali, least not until he made his comeback in 1987 to 1997. He was still as sloppy as ever, wild as ever. I was just hypothesising that had Foreman trained specifically to try and box Ali, he would do better than he done in Zaire and would probably have won a decision. Even Angello Dundee acknowledges had Foreman fought more like he done in his comeback in the 1970's, Ali would have had trouble with Foreman.

Ali, yes, could be dangerous in the championship rounds, he proved that in the last Norton fight coming on strong in the very last round, sealing a decision victory...but Ali seemed to fade in the "middle" rounds, like he done against Frazier. If Foreman kept his cool, boxed, I could see him winning alot of the middle and early rounds.

As far as Ali dancing, all I'm saying is foot work, lateral foot movement, isn't going to be of no help to him against Foreman, because after Wepner it was apparent Ali was more flat footed. It was his upper body movements that made him tough for his opponents to handle...this could be taken away from him, I believe, if Foreman boxed him, making Ali come to Foreman, because at this stage he wasn't going to back away as easily and could hit the deck.

Ali won a few rounds, yes, from Foreman in Zaire because he fought off the ropes and used alot of head and body movement, as well as blocking the more frequent shots with his arms.

Foreman's jab, in my opinion, is rather under-rated. It wasnt really special or beautiful looking, but that reach, combined with the cannonball power behind it made it a difficult weapon to take. It wasnt quite Liston's jab, but it was close.

All I was saying in this thread was if Foreman would have showed patience, would have been willing to have changed his ways, would have thought more than did...he might have taken back the title from Ali...but no, he was still the bullish oaf after Zaire and had he did fight Ali again, he would have probably lost, because its more than likely he would have banged away at Ali just like he done in Zaire.

The result would have been the same 10 times out of 10...but had he boxed and got himself into the condition and system he was in his comeback...I believe it would have been a completely different story altogether.

[I Feel Fine]

Ok, I see, you're talking more hpyothetically.

The only thing I would say to that is that even if, hypothetically, George did know how to box, and even if George did win; he still would be in his prime facing a 33-34 year old Ali. What if Ali is also in his prime? Ali in his prime I think could out box a boxer Foreman.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali in his prime fighting a boxing Foreman? Ali all the way, there are very few champions I can think of who possibly could have defeated Ali via decision. And the key word is POSSIBLY....and Foreman isnt one of them.