Rating the Hall of Famers

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 06 Sep 2007, 10:19

As of right now, there are exactly 200 fighters (not including Pioneers)in the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

I didn't want to start a discussion of who should be in that isn't.(That has already been done on other threads)

I thought it would be fun to put each member in one of 5 levels.

Level A - The true legends. Each of these fighters is at least one of the top 3 fighters in a weight class.

Level B- Not quite a Level A Hall of Famer, but certainly a great fighter.

Level C -Not a legend, but a typical Hall of Famer. Certainly deserves to be a member of the Hall of Fame. (Majority of Hall of Famers are in this level.)

Level D- Borderline whether they should be in the Hall of Fame. You could make a strong case either way. These are very good fighters who certainly aren't the worst fighters in the Hall of Fame.

Level E - Good fighters, but aren't really legitimate Hall of Famers. Most other Hall of Famers are much better. Many fighters not in the Hall of Fame are better.

Level A - (17 fighters)
Muhammad Ali
Henry Armstrong
Ezzard Charles
Roberto Duran
Joe Gans
Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Sam Langford
Benny Leonard
Ray Leonard
Joe Louis
Carlos Monzon
Archie Moore
Willie Pep
Ray Robinson
Sandy Saddler
Michael Spinks

Level B- (24 fighters)
Alexis Arguello
George Foreman
Bob Foster
Joe Frazier
Emile Griffith
Sonny Liston
Tommy Loughran
Rocky Marciano
Eder Jofre
Jose Napoles
Carlos Ortiz
Salvador Sanchez
Pernell Whitaker
Lou Ambers
Tony Canzoneri
Bob Fitzsimmons
Barney Ross
Gene Tunney
Jack Dempsey
James J Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Stanley Ketchel
Mickey Walker
Jimmy Wilde

Level C - (117 fighters)
Sammy Angott
Carmen Basilio
Wilfred Benitez
Nino Benvenuti
Jack Berg
Jimmy Bivins
Joe Brown
Charley Burley
Miguel Canto
Michael Carbajal
Marcel Cerdan
Antonio Cervantes
Billy Conn
Flash Elorde
Gene Fullmer
Khaosai Galaxy
Victor Galindez
Kid Gavilan,
Joey Giardello
Wilfredo Gomez
Humberto Gonzalez
Billy Graham,
Fighting Harada
Beau Jack
Harold Johnson
Jake LaMotta
Nicolino Locche
Duilio Loi
Ricardo Lopez
Mike McCallum
Joey Maxim
Bob Montgomery
Ken Norton
Azumah Nelson
Ruben Olivares
Bobo Olson
Manuel Ortiz
Floyd Patterson
Eusebio Pedroza
Pascual Perez
Aaron Pryor
Dwight Qawi
Sugar Ramos
Luis Rodriquez
Vincente Saldivar
Max Schmeling
Dick Tiger
Randy Turpin
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ike Williams
Tony Zale
Daniel Zaragoza
Carlos Zarate
Abe Attell
Max Baer
Jim Barry
Battling Battalino
Jack Britton
Panama Al Brown
Tommy Burns
Georges Carpentier
Kid Chocolate
James J Corbett
Young Corbett III
Johnny Coulon
Les Darcy
Jack Delaney
"Nonpareil" Jack Dempsey
Jim Driscoll
Jack Dillon
George Dixon
Johnny Dundee
Tiger Flowers
Frankie Genaro
Mike Gibbons
Tommy Gibbons
Young Griffo
Harry Harris
Pete Herman
Peter Jackson
Joe Jeanette
Louis Kaplan
Johnny Kilbane
Fidel LaBarba
Kid Lavigne
Battling Levinsky
John Henry Lewis
Ted Kid Lewis
Tommy Loughran
Benny Lynch
Joe Lynch
Sammy Mandell
Jack McAuliffe
Kid McCoy
Packey McFarland
Terry McGovern
Jimmy McClarnin
Sam McVey
Freddie Miller
Pedro Montanez
Kid Norfolk,
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Billy Petrolle
Maxsie Rosenbloom
Tommy Ryan
Jack Sharkey
Freddie Steele
Young Stribling
Lew Tendler
Marcel Thil
Pancho Villa
"Barbadoes" Joe Walcott
Freddie Welsh
Kid Williams
Harry Wills
Ad Wolgast
Midget Wolgast
Teddy Yarosz

Level D - (32 fighters)
Freddie Apostoli
Ken Buchanan
Jimmy Carter
Bobby Chacon
Curtis Cokes
Jeff Chandler
Pipino Cuevas
Jeff Fenech
Rocky Graziano
Ingemar Johansson
Ismael Laguna
Terry Norris
Barry McGuigan
Carlos Palomino
Lazslo Papp
Willie Pastrano
Matthew Saad Muhammad
Jose Torres
Fritzie Zivic
Baby Arizmendi
Paul Berlanbach
Lou Brouillard
Joe Choynski
Eugene Criqui
Jackie Fields
Owen Moran
Battling Nelson
Billy Papke
Willie Ritchie
Jimmy Slattery
Tom Sharkey
Charles "Bud" Taylor

Level E - (10 fighters)

Benny Bass
James J. Braddock
Sixto Escobar
George Godfrey
Lew Jenkins
Dixie Kid
Charlie Mitchell
Edwin Rosario
Jess Willard
Chalky Wright

Again, this isn't meant to be a discussion as to who isn't in the Hall of Fame that should be. I just wanted to group the members that are already in according to how good they were and talk about that.

This should spark some good discussions. We are talking about 200 fighters who fought in all weight classes in a period of over 100 years. I doubt that you could find two people that would classify all of these fighters the same way.

Who should be in a level higher than listed?
Who should be in a level lower than listed?

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 06 Sep 2007, 10:40

McGuigan should be shown the door to Level E if we cannot actually remove him

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Sep 2007, 10:55

I'd rather remove Sonny Liston, Ingemar Johansson, Jess Willard, Max Baer, James Braddock and Jack Sharkey.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 06 Sep 2007, 10:58

Seamus wrote:I'd rather remove Sonny Liston, Ingemar Johansson, Jess Willard, Max Baer, James Braddock and Jack Sharkey.

IMO, Liston was unlucky to be in the Era of Ali... Ten years earlier and he would have ruled the division for a lot longer. I would give him the nod over a LOT of HW's people mention on here. He beats all the current 4 IMO

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Sep 2007, 11:13

All that's speculation, and the Hall Of Fame should be about what you actually accomplished not what you might have accomplished under different circumstances. Barry McGuigan had the style to beat alot of fighters, great bodypunching, lot's of head movement and excellent conditioning, but fact is he didn't have enough big wins to deserve to be in the HOF.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 06 Sep 2007, 11:24

Seamus wrote:All that's speculation, and the Hall Of Fame should be about what you actually accomplished not what you might have accomplished under different circumstances. Barry McGuigan had the style to beat alot of fighters, great bodypunching, lot's of head movement and excellent conditioning, but fact is he didn't have enough big wins to deserve to be in the HOF.

True, but then Liston did more than McGuigan did in his career, as you say.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 06 Sep 2007, 11:24

Decagon wrote:Jimmy Wilde has to be level A.

How could he not be? The man was a legend

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Sep 2007, 11:29

Am I right: is there no Eder Jofre in this list?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Sep 2007, 11:39

I'd say

Tunney
Wilde
Griffith

and possibly Napoles to the level A category.

Loughran
T Gibbons
Dixon
Attell
and perhaps Cerdan

should be promoted to B

Chandler
Fullmer
Norris
McVey
Patterson

should be demoted to D

Fenech

should be promoted to C

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Sep 2007, 11:50

Shouldn't Zarate be on the list too? Harold Johnson? Are these guys here but I'm just not seeing them?

Mickey Walker might make the A class too. He campaigned through the weights very succesfully.

markl · Post by **markl** » 06 Sep 2007, 12:14

Wilde, Whitaker & Spinks to Level A

Ike Williams & Azumah to level B

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 06 Sep 2007, 12:18

Ezzard wrote:Shouldn't Zarate be on the list too? Harold Johnson? Are these guys here but I'm just not seeing them?

Mickey Walker might make the A class too. He campaigned through the weights very succesfully.

Sorry, Ezzard, a few guys were accidentally omitted. I edited it and Zarate,Johnson, are now listed. Both are at level C. Jofre was also omitted. He is now listed, at level B.
Let me know if you notice anyone else.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Sep 2007, 12:26

markl wrote:Wilde, Whitaker & Spinks to Level A

Ike Williams & Azumah to level B

Azumah and Pedroza should be close to B or in B.

Chavez would be B for sure.

Valdez would make the list somewhere for me.

I Feel Fine · Post by **I Feel Fine** » 06 Sep 2007, 14:29

Not too bad a list. There are a few fighters I might upgrade or downgrade, but nothing too objectionable, I can appreciate why they are where they are. Nice job overall.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Sep 2007, 16:14

It's the HALL OF FAME Braddock deserves his place.

It's not the HALL OF SKILL or the HALL OF TALENT or even the HALL OF PUNCHING POWER. The pure ability of the fighter is not always the reason for induction. Though many of us think it should be that way.

Fame is different. Nasseem Hamed should end up there as well.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 06 Sep 2007, 17:04

Buzz- I don't want to get bogged down by the word fame in the International Boxing Hall of Fame. For the purpose of this thread we are going strictly by how good a fighter's career was, regardless of their fame.

theone · Post by **theone** » 06 Sep 2007, 18:15

Spinks, Whitaker and Chavez ,when he gets in, deserve to be at Level A without a doubt.

JC · Post by JC » 06 Sep 2007, 18:19

theone wrote:Spinks, Whitaker and Chavez ,when he gets in, deserve to be at Level A without a doubt.

Come to mention it wasn't Whittaker inducted this year along with Lopez and Duran?

theone · Post by **theone** » 06 Sep 2007, 18:41

Yup. I only meant Chavez when I wrote 'when he gets in'.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 06 Sep 2007, 18:48

To Level A:

George Foreman
Rocky Marciano
Eder Jofre
Tony Canzoneri
Bob Fitzsimmons
Barney Ross
Gene Tunney
Jack Dempsey
Stanley Ketchel
Jimmy Wilde
Pascual Perez
Nicolino Locche
Panama Al Brown
Tommy Loughran
Jimmy McLarnin

To Level B:

Charley Burley
Billy Conn
Kid Gavilan
Fighting Harada
Duilio Loi
Joey Maxim
Ruben Olivares
Carlos Ortiz
Manuel Ortiz
Vicente Saldivar
Max Schmeling
Tony Zale
Carlos Zarate
Jim Barry
George Dixon
Johnny Dundee
Tiger Flowers
John Henry Lewis
Terry McGovern
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Rocky Graziano
Marcel Cerdan
Paul Berlenbach
Battling Nelson
Sixto Escobar

To Level C:

Ismael Laguna
Jimmy Carter
Billy Papke

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Sep 2007, 19:41

Ambling Alp wrote:Buzz- I don't want to get bogged down by the word fame in the International Boxing Hall of Fame. For the purpose of this thread we are going strictly by how good a fighter's career was, regardless of their fame.

Yep we are on the same page....I just have to make my obligatory remark on this subject before I participate.

On first glance Loche and Cervantes should move up a notch. Whitaker maybe up a notch along with Fitzsimmons and Dempsey. Non Pareil up a notch. Joe Jeanette up a notch.

Overall I like your thinking Alp....... I think Martin's list makes some sense especially if you eliminate the bottom catagory.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Sep 2007, 21:29

Not one poster missed the ommission of one of the greatest fighters who ever lived. Hint, he isn't some overrated heavyweight who won the title from another boring ass heavyweight.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Sep 2007, 22:22

Forgot to mention the International Boxing Hall Of Fame at Canastota has ZERO credibility. The IBHOF inducted Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson and Jersey Joe Walcott ahead of Pascual Perez, Eder Jofre, Panama Al Brown, Pancho Villa and Jimmy Barry to name just a few. After that, why the hell not induct Jerry Quarry, Chuck Wepner, Renaldo Snipes and Bert Gilroy.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:48

Then forget Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb etc because the Klitschko brothers would have given them fatal beatings.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 07 Sep 2007, 10:51

Seamus wrote:Not one poster missed the ommission of one of the greatest fighters who ever lived. Hint, he isn't some overrated heavyweight who won the title from another boring ass heavyweight.

Hi, Seamus!

You are speaking of John L?